In October of 2005, I started this blog. I wanted to share my story, and do a little thinking out loud about some important issues. At the time, blogging was new to me, and I thought it’d be fun to have my own little corner of the world wide web.
Since the launch of my blog, I’ve realized that I stepped out into a rushing stream that pulled and moved me onward and forward. There is a movement afoot today that I believe is of God’s Spirit. Young people in fundamentalist circles are coming in contact with serious, conservative evangelicalism, and that encounter is leaving a lasting impression. For some it is a positive development, for others it springboards them out to the emerging movement and beyond. My goal in my online presence, and in my participation with this blog, is to help that movement stay rooted in Scripture and be glorifying to God.
I should back up a bit though, and offer my story. I didn’t know much about blogging when I posted my dozen page (or more?) letter online as one post and called it My Story. I’ve had lots of feedback, good and bad about that story. But now that it’s been several years, and I’ve matured in my thinking and blogging, I’m interested in giving my story another go. This time it may be a bit more readable….
I grew up in an independent fundamental Baptist (IFB) home. My parents had attended Hyles-Anderson College, and we were members in a church where the pastor had gone to school at Tom Malone’s Midwestern Baptist College. I learned most of our standards through a cultural osmosis. We were KJV Only (this became more important for us in the mid-’90s, I believe), against “Christian Rock” (although I didn’t know exactly what that was, and the Southern Gospel groups we had in all the time, would be frowned on in other circles), and we were “old-fashioned”. We had revivals and faith promise missions. We had evangelists bring their motor-homes, and saw more missionaries come through our church doors than you could shake a stick at. We had a solid diet of topical preaching, heavy on the emotions. We drove 14 hours to go to a good teen camp where the preacher could cry, spit and scream at the same time (not to mention swing from the tabernacle rafters). Oh, and we ran buses. From as early as I can remember I followed my dad around on the bus route, and in the bus.
I was dragged around the country on deputation as a teen-age missionary kid. I learned a little about the various clicks and sub-groups within fundamentalism along the way. We were warned what not to say or do, in certain contexts. We went to Hyles-Anderson affiliated churches, to BBF or WBF churches. Big churches, little churches, somewhat liberal ones (from our perspective), and frighteningly hard-core. It was here I first came in contact with an ultra-decisionist mindset, where numbers and “souls saved” were all that mattered. Only a few of our stops were at places like this, but even as a teenager I thought something was wrong.
When we got a hold of David Cloud’s Way of Life Encyclopedia, I eagerly read many portions of it, as I started to be more eager to learn the “why”s for all of our quirky positions. After a year on the mission field, my home-school education was complete (I’ve been to my share of Christian schools too, and am familiar with ACE and ABeka curricula), and I came back to the States to enroll at a small, local-church based, independent fundamental Baptist College. It was there that I learned the Biblical reasons behind the various positions that IFBs held. I grew more conservative in my standards, and more confident in my faith. I gained more experience working in a church environment, and at the same time, became dissatisfied with some of the tendencies I saw.
At college, I grew to loathe the “preacher-said” mindset. So many were content to just follow the leadership without knowing “why”. I saw a simplistic KJV Onlyism, too, that elevated the English above the Greek (I was one of the few who cared enough to take Greek as a minor). I also could already see that the scholarship level in some classes was not very high. And I was getting sick and tired of the standard topical sermon that used a text to launch of into a tirade not directly connected to any text. This is not to say there wasn’t good preaching to be had. I think these feelings grew as I stayed through College and into the 1 year Master’s program. But even then, I thought the answer was taking our principles and being more Biblical in how we preached and used them. I still greatly respected (and still do), the leadership of the school, although I saw room for improvement (and indeed it was improving in various ways while I was there).
After college, I got married and moved out west to help in an expositional preaching IFB church and school. My wife taught first grade, and I was mentored by the pastoral staff for a while. I learned a lot there, and loved the emphasis on education and scholarship. They had written a book on the KJV issue, and it was the best I had yet read. The KJV Only debate was already a special focus of mine, I had read 1500 pages on the topic for one of my Master’s papers. While there I became more heavily involved in an aggressive, apologetic door-to-door evangelism model, too. I learned a lot there. I still am thankful for the time we spent at that church. God took us through some hard bumps while there. The pastors and people were kind and helpful during a difficult time in my personal life and in our family. Looking back on it, I can see God’s hand even in the difficult time. He was shaping us, even then. After two years, I couldn’t find work, and my wife’s teaching career was finished with our need to have her stay home with our first daughter. My brother found me a job in the Twin Cities, where he had been living, and we moved back to the mid-west to be closer to family.
It was at another strong IFB church in the Twin Cities, that God brought many things to a head for us. I’ve neglected to mention in all of this, that my brother, a year younger than I, had gone to Northland Baptist Bible College (now Northland International University) in Dunbar, WI. In that environment he had gradually changed and adopted Calvinism (thanks to John Piper’s influence), abandoned KJV Onlyism, found a love for contemporary worship music, etc. For several years, every time we’d see each other, we’d debate theology. Local-church-only ecclesiology, Calvinism, KJV Onlyism, music, separation — the list of debate topics grew quite long! I would think I had the answers for him, and that I could convince him of his errors. But every time we talked, my arguments fell flat, and not only did they not work, I saw in him an attractive spirit and a love for Christ that was so different from what I knew of who he was before. God had changed him, and was using his influence on me.
I resisted, but we would send books and articles back and forth to each other. I always was one to read the opposing points of view, and so I set out to study different issues. I never really thought through the debates from an objective standpoint, however. I had a bias toward my own view, of course. Plus in my circles, to abandon any small point in my system of theology, was to risk being ostracized and separated from. Anyway, back to our time in Minnesota.
At the small church we were at, we weren’t as heavily involved in all the ministries as we had been for several years before. As we soaked in the ministry of the church (we were busy too with settling in, and getting adjusted to parenthood, as well as getting ready for daughter #2), I became more and more dissatisfied with the teaching and preaching. I believe God was giving me a distaste and showing me the result of being a church that fights over every small point. The church we were in took pride in each and every small thing they stood for. At least that’s how we saw it at the time. We were out from the thumb of church leadership and direct control, in a sense, and had more freedom to think about things in a more objective light.
We were closer to my brother, who was now pastoring in rural ND. I read more and more articles he gave me, and I had more and more talks with him. Finally, I had to be honest with myself about the KJV Only issue. I came to the place where knew I couldn’t believe in an error-free KJV. After admitting that, I gained a new level of objectivity. In a few months, the nagging questions and doubts I had, finally quieted as I started looking at things from a different perspective and a new point of view.
At this point, I should stress this wasn’t easy for us. We were expecting a baby, and living in a town where we knew no one expect the few friends we had at church. We risked familial displeasure from both sides of our family, and the little ties we had with friends would soon be severed as well over this. I knew what the path to ministry looked like from within my current circles, but had not a clue how it would work outside of them. There wasn’t much to be gained, except a peace in my spirit and a settled conscience. But there was much to lose. I felt the risk was worth the cost. Especially as I thought of our children. I had come to the point where I saw much of my previous life in shades of legalism to one degree or another. And the legalistic tendency seemed all too real if we remained in the extreme IFB circles we were in.
We cautiously left, in a careful way so as not to cause disruption in the church. We visited a few other churches, a more moderate IFB church (later we came to view this as a mainstream IFB church), a Reformed Baptist church, and then what became our home church for the next 4 and a half years: Bethlehem Baptist, pastored by John Piper. My brother had attended there for almost two years, and when we first started attending, there was much for us to get adjusted to. But we came to love the Scripture focus, and Christ-centered ministry model. God has blessed us immensely during our time at Bethlehem. We have a new freedom in Christ, and a deeper understanding of God’s grace. We believe God is at work in our lives, and are currently helping out with a Bethlehem-sponsored church plant in St. Paul.
I hope my story (again it ends up being long!) can help some. It hasn’t been an easy road. We still have hurt feelings with past friends, and loved family members. The sacrifice was worth it for us. Before I close, let me just specify that since that time, I’ve come to realize something important about our story. It’s our story. And it doesn’t have to be yours. I don’t think God calls everyone who is awakened to problems in their church, to leave it. God wants some to stay put and work for change from within. God wants some to be reforming fundamentalists from within the IFB movement. For others, God will not let them stay. And for those who aren’t “reforming”, the vast majority are God-fearing, sincere believers. I think they are led astray in many cases. I think they are in a movement and surrounded by structures that will make it easy to be legalistic, and will tend toward a performance-oriented Christianity. But as with other theological positions, just because there can be a tendency to drift, doesn’t mean that drift will happen. There are many who serve God out of a pure heart of love, and they are to be received and approved in the spirit of Rom. 14-15.
I now am fundamentally reformed. I still identify with fundamentalism, and uphold the fundamentals. I still believe a certain separation for the truth is incumbent on all true Christians. I also am thoroughly reformed in my theology. I’m still a Baptist, but I respect reformed theology, and even Presbyterian baptism. I’ve lost my dispensationalism, and have a respect for other expressions of Christianity that I wouldn’t always have had. My Calvinism coupled with my life story, frees me to hope the best for everyone. God is still at work in their lives. I still love Christ, and uphold the fundamentals of the faith. I believe in inerrancy, and still view large swaths of evangelicalism with distrust. I see a great need for reform, and long for the Church to be more biblical. Perhaps that will happen when more fundamentalists wake up to their own need of reformation. They have much to offer the wider evangelical church.
If you care to read more, here is the link to my original (and incredibly long) version of “My Story”. You can also skip the first part of that story and jump right to “My Critique of Fundamentalism and Defense of My Positions“. I pray God blesses you through Jesus Christ, wherever you are in your journey.
Hi, I think we met at the ACL conference at Northwestern a few weeks back. Mennonite guy with gray hair from Ohio. Interesting site here.
Yes, I remember you well. Thanks for hunting me down online. :^)
I am amazed at what I am seeing here. As a former MacArthur listener & attender of a former Calvinistic church such as MacArthur I have to laugh at some of the things coming from REFORMERS of any kind. So much preaching from MacArthur and his kind on how the Christian’s calling is to preach the gospel & leave the rest to God. I NEVER have seen more attacking and critical & judgment from the reformers. Christ must be proud . We have people like Rob Bell possibly going to eternal Hell and what are the reformers doing. Already passing judgment.Of they are already part of the elect and those like BELL are not. I see nowhere Scripture calling for reformation BUT certainly TRANSFORMATION. Talk about legalism. Reformed made legalism LEGAL.
MacArthur and those who teach against church doctrine are usually asked to leave. Rudy Villa is fortunate.
Reformers teach what REFORMERS of old believed. God wants WHAT SAITH THE LORD SAITH. REFORMERS REFORM. ONLY GOD TRANSFORMS
Wow, it’s a wonderful testimony,it speaks to my heart because this is the situation I’m in right now after 20 years in the same church, same pastor which I fully respect for his service and dedication not having any formal education not even primary schooling, (was taught to read and write by his wife).
In a quite different church setting – oneness Pentecostal church. My personal issue is not the oneness doctrine,nor their holiness legalism, but Dispensational theology which I find extremely objectionable,having racial preferences – now that I have come to understand this erroneous view of Bible’s eschatalogical interpretation and all that it implies. I find it ironic that oneness Pentacostals and those of the Trinitarian view (which are antagonistic towards each other) are united in Dispensational thoelogy, (Israeli-Jews as the chosen ones and many other positions). Yes I have taught this theology zealously myself without fully understanding it, leaving many congregants and myself scratching our heads. The new revelations did not happen overnight, but gradually over many years starting in 1998 with Pastor Bob Robbins (The Singing Pastor) and a self published book that I ignored for two years. When he came to have his vehicle serviced at my auto repair shop, I would ask him about being ready for the rapture and about the ensuing seven years tribulation, he would not say anything and just rolled his eyes and gesture in disgust with his hands. He gave me a book which I left to gather dust for about two years, after nearly two years coming back,- to service his vehicle again, he asked me If I had read his book, which I replied shamefully, no, but I promise to start reading it when I got back home that same day, which I did read two chapters. It threw my whole theological world in turmoil, because everything inside of me was telling me, this was correct interpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel already fulfilled 2000 years ago and that there is no such thing as a seven year tribulation. This hit at the main pillar of Dispensational eschatology which I taught and is the official eschatalogy in my particular denomination. I conferred to my Pastor about this revelation, which he was not to happy about, which he politely rebuked in a sermon. My pastor’s view was that church leadership are not even going to intertain an alternate view of our official established eschatology. well I have stayed on in the same church to teach Covenantal Theology (to my Pastor’s and Miniterial leaders disgust) without even knowing about there being such theology, I was just teaching the Bible, about the hope and promises of God in Christ. In back of my mind I knew there has to be formal theological frame work for what I was teaching, but I just did not know what it was. Then came Kenneth Gentry which have very insightful confirmed many of the point I had being making. I have taught expositional teaching of the errors of Dispensationalism, It hit at the pillars of Pre-Millenial Dispensationaism devastatingly so that many in the church were shaken,I could hear the gasping, ooohs and aahhs very audibaly. The response was overwhelmingly positive from lay people, ministerial leaders including the Pastor wasn’t to happy about it, that he took two Sundays to undo the damage, refuting my positions, which I believe to be the authentic biblical positions. Then I did expositional teachings on “Knowing Your Identity in Christ” Do not give your new God given identity to someone else who don’t want anything to do with Jesus, In Christ,You are the children of the Promise, God has only one chosen people, one purpose ( one plan of salvation) for all of mankind fulfilled in Christ. The response was the same, the brethern looked stunned, surprised. Well now I’m considred a loose cannon, demoted to teach the youth of the church. Church minister spend much time indirectly saying apostates come from within the church and to be careful of ravenous wolves teaching different doctrines – so like you, once, I’m at the cross roads what should I do, where should I go? some have asked why I’m not teaching Sunday School to Adults anymore, some have suggested to start a new church, I don’t know about that, if this is what the lord have be to do.
Rudy,
Sorry I didn’t see this post until now. Thanks for sharing your story. I would caution against starting your own church. But you may need to consider looking for another church. Don’t try to cause dissension if you can help it. Pray for God’s wisdom. It might be good for you to study and sit and learn from others a bit, before jumping back into teaching. But the church you’re at may not be healthy for you in your walk. There’s no easy answer, but I would encourage you to seek counsel from others you trust and respect and pray about it.
In Christ,
Bob
Sorry about grammer on previous post, I did not proof read article, working and writing multi-tasking.
Fascinating story. Thanks for sharing it with the public. While it doesn’t closely mirror my own, there are some similarities. I can certainly empathize with your journey.
You putting this all down on ‘paper’ has inspired me to do the same with my own…if I can figure out where to start.
Doc,
Thanks for the kind words. I’d encourage you to do that it’s helpful for you and your readers.
Rudy –
I am a former dispensationalist myself, but may I kindly suggest to you that your Christology is a far more important issue than your eschatology. I don’t want to turn Bob’s bio into a debate on the Trinity, but may I suggest that if you were wrong on Dispensationalism, you may be wrong on this, also?
Your treatment of the fundamentalist movement is much needed. However, I caution you against putting all fundamentalists into the same box. I graduated from Bible Baptist Seminary in 1962 (now Arlington [Texas]Baptist College), where I was first exposed to the wonderful doctrines of grace. My professor of theology was George Norris, son of J.Frank Norris, founder of the school. My good friend, Dr. Jack Green, will soon publish a book called, “The Calvinism of Dr. J.Frank Norris.” Dr. Norris did not teach the radical Arminean doctrines held by John R. Rice and Jack Hyles. He was a church builder, an early fundamentalist and a great Bible expositor. Unfortunately, his legacy has been distorted by some who would advance false doctrine in his name. Beware of the works of those pharisees.
I totally agree, there is good in fundamentalism, and not everyone needs to bail ship. It’s very hard not to generalize, but I do try. Thanks for your kind words. I wasn’t ware of Norris’ Calvinism. I had heard Calvinism had a representative voice in Fundamentalism all along, this bolsters that opinion.
Thanks again,
Bob Hayton
Dr. J Frank Norris holds to Calvinism ? Interesting ! I cant’ wait to get a copy of that book to show my IFB rabid-anti Calvinist friends !
I really want that book. I’ve been doing research on the Norris seminary school. I
Hello Brother Warren. I’ve been wanting to get ahold of ya in regards to Norris seminary school and it’s history. Did you write a book about it?. Where can I reach ya at?
Hi Bob,
Just found your website, based on the book review on SharperIron about getting the Reformation right.
I have a similar story to you, which I think is the case with a lot of people.
For me, the person I have debated (like you did your brother) is my father-in-law. Only I’m your brother, defending Calvinism, and he’s where you used to be–an Arminian or something of that stripe.
Anyways, are you still helping with a church plant in St. Paul? What’s the name of the church? Who’s the preaching pastor? I knew of a guy plantin a church (with Bethlehem) in Stillwater, and wanted to see if it’s the same connection.
I’m involved with a church plant south of the river. I’d like to give you information about our church so if you know anyone south of the river.
Just wanted to connect with you so that we can establish a brief network for people seeking Calvnistic chuches in the TC.
You can email me with the address I provided.
Dan
Thanks Dan. I’ll email you.
I stumbled onto your site. I am appreciative for folks like yourself. I have a friend named Tim Gallant who also grew up in fundamentalist circles and your story reminded me of his story. 🙂 I also love your pastoral spirit.
Thanks, Gerald. Thanks for the encouragement.
Hi Bob,
Was heavily involved with a FBC in El Cerrito, CA. Can attest to what you wrote. Predestination was never adequately explained to me when I took College courses except that “Calvinist’s” were a danger to evangelism. In other words, they didn’t believe anything that flew in the face of their manmade “sinner’s prayer”. The Pastor I had there was also a Hyles-Anderson grad with a master’s degree. Tithing was the big thing and bribing kids to come to church was another. If bus driver had wings they could just fly to heaven and bypass Christ for doing God a “big favor”! (just joking) Yelling and crying and fist slamming spoke louder then God’s Word. Man’s pride and ability were paramount to Romans 3.
Thanks, Alvin
I’m kind of surprised at reading your story. You’re right that some ifb churches hold some manmade extreme views and hold them extremely, but as an ifb myself that much prefers expositional teaching, my NASB, reformed and covenant theology, and consideration only for the words of Scripture, I just go to an ifb church that is like that. An ifb with correct doxology and praxeology. Anyone finding themselves in the Houston area seeking the same, http://www.northhoustonbaptist.org is the place for you. Just saying you don’t need to leave ifb to get away from the Hyles-Anderson way.
Sir, I am doing a research paper for a Course in Theological issues affecting Missions. The topic I am writing on is “The effects of Calvinism on Missions” and i am in defense of Calvinism as the friend of missions. I Stumbled on to your site and I am BLOWN away at what I am experiencing here. Except for the traveling all over the country and changing churches I am in the very same situation. I actually am a member of an IFB church and though I do not think I will abandon dispensational eschatology I can see many similatiries to your story. I just came from discussing the KJV issue with a classmate. I will be reading your page on the matter. Thank you so much for posting your story. It lets me know that I am not alone in this world.
Blessings to you as you minister to those who are dealing with this matter.
Thanks for sharing, bro. Great site. Blessings,
So, I read a cpl of your stories. I am glad I found this blog, how do I join? I grew up IFB. Even went to Fairhaven on numerous occassions. When all the stories started hitting tv and even b4 that I was on a facebook page for former IFBers. Liked it until I asked a question and then stated not all IFB churches r the same and the question I asked was not to the heads liking and I didnt agree with them completely and told them so-so they kicked me off-lol. Your writing is great. You do not condemn unrealisticaly nor do u seem out for blood either. I also think it sad that ppl have taken their ifb experiences and used them to completely turn their back on God. What is even sadder is they have been taught the wrong things about God previously which makes them want to turn from Him. You have a good blog here.
Thanks Renae. You don’t really “join” the blog, you can comment whenever you would like. It’s just a place where I post my thoughts from time to time.
You can check out Re-fundamentals.org too and maybe join the Facebook fan page for that. I think that’s a venue for more discussion….
There are also forums at SharperIron.org which are a good place for healthy discussion where people do try to grow and change in the IFB but don’t discard all IFBs like they are poison.
I like your story. Although I did not grow up in church but I remember the fundementalists who were in my school. Their parents seemed to prefer Bel Airs and their daughters always wore long dresses.
I found the Reformed faith in the late nineties when I was looking for information with which to refute the charismatics who were after my wife on her job. It has been the best thing to happen to us. Needless to say we are in the minoirty in our Arminian/Dispensational SBC.
It is our hope to someday go to the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. We can get more out of one of their services than three services at our church. This is probably because of true exspository preaching.
Thanks Mark. Glad it was a blessing.
Hi, Could you help me to be engaged more on the Reformed theology and faith by sending me a book/books that can help to explore more on the Reformed theology. I am an associate pastor of church plant here for 3 years in the Philippines! God bless!
This is a great testimony and such a blessing to read. I had to go through the transition myself and it was difficult. I was always taught what to believe, but not why. I wasn’t taught hermeneutics or exegesis. The only Church history I knew was the trail of blood. It’s honestly a relief to know that God is working in others outside of myself who grew up in the IFB circles
Thanks for your kind words. I didn’t see your comment until now, but am repeatedly blessed when I hear people responding positively to my story. God works through all sorts of churches for His own glory, that is sure.
Blessings in Christ,
Bob
Still amazed that people follow a church, a pastor, or even an author. The author here is only stating that he followed a pastor and his eyes were opened, so he decided to go another route (i.e. church) and follow that pastor. See Eph. 4:14-15. Follow Christ (1 Cor. 11:1).
I am not “reformed” because in and of itself is to identify with a group that takes on a title. I understand that titles tell people how to believe, but that’s exactly what is happening here. It’s now a denomination and has a meaning that often means the follow certain doctrines, many of which are contrary to the scriptures. I can only say that the Bible is the authority. I do not follow the IFB movement that is so focused on separation that it can be pharisaical, but I have found the same thing with people who follow Calvinism (meaning they follow what they were taught by men). Focus on the bible, not a church, pastor, or author. Even if they are true, we should never follow them, but do as Paul said in 1 Cor. 11. We’re commanded to seek, and then we shall find, (Matt. 6:33; Matt 7:7; John 5:39).