Following my post from yesterday, I wanted to share the video clip of CNN reporting on Hephzibah House, an IFB reform house for girls.
If that isn’t enough, you can hear a detailed documentary of eight former HH students detailing what life was like for them at Hephzibah. The documentary is chilling and scary and reinforces how serious this problem is. And somehow the house has kept on running for nearly 40 years…
Why is it that some think brute force, spanking harder and more determinedly, can somehow produce spiritual results? Where do they come up with the idea that surrogate parenting will work, and is condoned by God? And why is it that using military school and extreme psychological tactics will be able to turn out women who fear the Lord and bask in His love?? These are human-centered, pragmatic tactics NEVER MENTIONED IN SCRIPTURE. And they abuse these poor girls. The results aren’t even worth talking about, as numerous former HH girls run away from Christianity with all their might.
There are a lot of man-centered, Arminian assumptions behind these reform schools and their methods, and I hope to explore this in more detail over the coming weeks. For now, be ashamed of this wing of fundamentalism, be alarmed, and think about what God would have you do.
This is pretty horrifying. Attempting to break the human will through man-made means and abuse of those made in His image is Arminianism brought to its logical conclusion and is an abomination to God. Thank you for exposing this, Bob. Absolutely heartbreaking.
Thanks Bob for the post. I agree that this is horrendous but I struggle to make the connection to Arminianism. There are plenty of people who hold to Armenian beliefs who would thoroughly reject this. Just wondering where that comes into the argument.
it is a logical extreme conclusion of Arminianism…if it’s all a matter of human will to be converted, then we can influence the will to obey, do righteousness by whatever means possible. It works in emotional alter calls in one setting, and it can work in disciplining children in another setting. That’s the connection. Not everybody takes their beliefs to their extreme conclusions…in fact most people don’t even live consistent with their own beliefs.
Good point, Marty. To be clear this is not what Arminians do as opposed to Calvinists. It is consistent with the Arminian idea of synergism, that we help God out in accomplishing things. That there’s something we can do or not do which will really make or break the issue. If God is the one who has to change a child’s heart, then that will shape my approach to parenting. If I have the burden on me and believe that if I put effort and obedience in I’ll get a good child out, then I will parent a different way. If a child is wayward, it must be the parents’ fault in strictly Arminian thinking. But the Calvinist can see more of a role in God’s actions.
Of course all of this is somewhat hypothetical and arbitrary. In general these belief systems lean this way. And this is my interpretation of how Arminians think, too. I don’t want to disparage them all. It may be a logical conclusion but not THE logical conclusion. And no one has to take those conclusions. Others can say the logical conclusion of Calvinism is no evangelism but I dispute that.
Thanks for keeping me on my toes.
Blessings,
Bob
Thorough-going Calvinists also speak of severity in discipline. I have read more warnings on austerity in discipline from Calvinist pastors than from Armenian. That could be in part because Armenian pastors aren’t paying attention. It could also indicate that Calvinists can sometimes be wound too tight. Calvinist severity would admittedly be motivated by a different set of assumptions than Armenian. But I think it unfair to assign guilt to the one side only. Naturally, you know already that HH leans in a more Armenian direction.
I am not surprised by the series, and it certainly gives CNN another opportunity to discredit Bible-believers. I am disappointed with some of the responses I am reading from “Bible-believers.” Disappointed, though not entirely surprised. We do, after all, tend to be reactionary.
I hope, above all else, that God’s people will be more determined to discipline their children Biblically, and to know what that means. I hope that Christian parents will love their children the way God says to, fearing God, not man. And in light of this series on “Ungodly Discipline,” I hope that more Christian parents will truly fear God in their discipline.
For example, some Christian parents who spank their children want their children to fear them in an ungodly way. They want their children to obey them out of fear – because they are bigger or because they are the parents, etc. No doubt, some would take issue with my saying so. But why should our children obey us? Is it because of who we are, or because of Who God is? Should we be teaching our children that we are the ultimate authority, or that God is? My authority comes from God, and I have no authority, as a parent or otherwise, aside from what He has vested in me. So then, when my children disobey me, the fact that it makes me unhappy is not what makes it sin. What makes it sin is the fact that God commands our children to obey us, and in this particular instance, my child did not.
As such then, a parent must spank obediently. Obediently would mean that they must spank, and that they must spank in submission to God. God placed an upper limit on the number of “stripes” that may be administered. More important than the actual number is the reason for the number… lest…thy brother should seem vile unto thee. The point is that our discipline is to be administered in love, and the point where it crosses the line is at the point where your brother seems vile.
Certainly, there are other passages that should apply to the issue. I hope that Christians won’t throw out the Baby with the bathwater on this issue, but will instead re-examine their motives and methods, and love their children more faithfully.
More importantly, I would love to see us move beyond spanking. I hope nobody will take that in a way I don’t mean. The Bible speaks of teaching and training much more than correction. As I teach in our church, if we count the admonitions, and model our practices after what we see in Scripture, then our homes should feature 3x more teaching and instruction than correction.
By the way, as a result of CNN’s report, I learned (to my surprise) that HH stopped spanking 15 years ago. However people might view that, I have to think that some of this is the result of learning and growing from mistakes.
No doubt, the people on this blog can appreciate that.
Am happy about that, if that is true. Also are they on record saying their previous practice was wrong? I’m not so sure…
As for your previous post, I agree, parenting should be more than correction, and I hope to review the Bible’s teaching on this topic in future posts. I think all Bible believing Christians have an obligation to care about matters of abuse. Even if it comes from quarters that they think are “BIble believers” and hence shouldn’t harbor such abuse. We must police ourselves and our own club, especially if we speak about others.
Fine, Bob, I’ll nibble at your bait.
“We must police ourselves and our own club, especially if we speak about others.”
On the chance that the fine quote above, attributed to yourself, was meant to make a point, I’ll go there with you if you will.
As I ceased blogging two years ago, not even Rodney Stewart could entice a comeback, although I was sorely tempted. But you got out the prod, and here I am.
Though I did not blog about Rodney, I still deplore what he did. For whatever reason, the blog world and Internet has developed its own life and assumptions about justice, and we are all expected to jump in and show our disgust in blog janglings and huffy-puffies.
As I was saying, I didn’t, but you should know that I did do something that a true friend should do — I wrote a letter to Rodney, urging him to repent, come clean, and take his punishment. He did (probably not because of me). Rather than write about him, I wrote to him.
While I am disgusted with what Rodney did, I also believe in Biblical repentance, and that there is such a thing as repentance which has actually been Scripturally accomplished (2 Cor 7:11). To Rodney’s credit, he owned what he did, took his punishment, expressed his sincere remorse (I watched the video), and set out to make things right. He did not run, move to another state, leave fundamentalism, and blame it on the abuses of IFBx.
Furthermore, as I understand it, Rodney had stopped his wicked and illegal activity for several weeks before the police raided his home. No excuse. No rationalization. Just that Rodney was already taking steps to turn from this sin. No doubt his steps should have gone further.
Even furthermore, as I understand it, the police investigating Rodney led his family to believe that this was an isolated incident, the only time he has done this. They had all his stuff, and they were trying to find more, so they probably know.
I rejoice if these things are true, and hope they are (I Cor 13:7), and although there were (and are) many things that disgust me about the case, yet I rejoice if there is genuine, Biblical repentance.
I would adamantly oppose Rodney’s re-entry into Christian ministry of any kind. I would fight it. Would you, Bob?
Now, I did my penance. I have searched for your comments on Jason Janz. I can’t seem to find them. Since he’s in your club and one of your boys, what gives? I was hoping to see the follow-up on “Why Preachers Fall.”
And while you are at it, I noticed a “must” in your comment, so maybe you won’t mind pointing out the Scripture for this “must.”
Dave,
I applaud what you did in contacting Rodney Stewart, and I sincerely hope his repentance is genuine. Knowing Stewart personally and being his peer, gave you an opening to write him directly that I do not have. As for re-entry into ministry, I would oppose it unless after years of showing fruit and being under the oversight of a church elder board, if the elder board considered him fit for some limited ministry, at some hypothetical point in the far-off future, that might be a different story. But even that seems far-fetched in this case where his fall was so public.
As for Jason Janz, I first say he’s not my home boy. He started Sharper Iron and I’m grateful for that, I was happy about his church plant it seemed good. Then I didn’t hear about him or of him for years, never contacted him or followed him. So I plead ignorance over what exactly you’re talking about, although I better look him up. Recently a few months back I heard he admitted to abusing his sister Jocelyn Zichterman, but I thought that was when he was a minor. Don’t know more than that and I’m not trying to excuse him or silence anything against him, I just honestly didn’t know.
My comment “must police” is directed toward IFB leaders. If they know of Hephzibah House’s extremes and the allegations brought against them, why do they stand back and let the Williams get meetings at numerous IFB churches all over the country who haven’t heard of the problems with Hephzibah. Doing what you’ve done to Stewart, in a sense is policing. And doing what you’ve done in standing against Hyles and his methodology is policing too. Too often the wilder IFB stories get ignored and overlooked by fundamentalist leaders. They are more vigorous in opposing compromise with Neo-Evangelicals and too busy blasting off at the errors of John MacArthur and Al Mohler, to really dig in and blow the horn against the extreme problems in their own camp. As for the “must”, if there’s a “must” to take a stand and separate from guys like MacArthur, then there certainly is a must to expose the problems of Hephzibah House. If it’s okay to air dirty laundry about Billy Graham, then we should reveal what’s going on elsewhere. I doubt not that physical abuse of kids would be something Paul could easily have added to his list in 1 Cor. 5. Eph. 5:11 would also argue for this “must”.
As for blogging, that is a platform that I have, and so it presents something I can do to speak up about this. I also have interacted with people elsewhere, encouraging and helping many who’ve been hurt by various fundamentalist excesses. Should I be contacting Fairhaven or Hephzibah House directly on these matters? Perhaps, but others have and have been rebuffed. I don’t have any platform from which they’d respect me. My capacity as a deacon in a Baptistic, evangelical church (that’s not IFB), doesn’t really give me that kind of leverage. So I’m supporting from afar using my blog. If it’s okay for me to decry the advances of the homosexual cause or to decry the lack of theological seriousness in the church at large, if I can spout off about my particular political beefs, or express alarm at the actions of Harold Camping, why shouldn’t I also blow the whistle on places where actual, physical abuse is reported — even if those places are in the IFB movement? In my experience and assessment (which granted may be limited), it seems that physical and other forms of abuse of children is allowed and encouraged in IFB circles at a much larger rate than in other church circles. Furthermore, a kind of spiritual abuse thrives as well, when leaders raise themselves up and speak ex cathedra on a variety of topics and become the only voice that matters to those who follow them. Not all of these abuses are exclusive to the IFB, but they often thrive. And I think certain fundamental building blocks that make a church an IFB church lend themselves toward these evils if we’re not careful. So all the more I think it incumbent upon me to speak about these things, in the venue that I have, to make some small difference for some people. That’s how I see it.
I don’t think I said (or even implied) that you should be contacting these places first. I agree with you that it would be impossible. As far as Jason Janz, what he did as a minor is one thing. But lying about it and going to the extent that he did to lie about it is quite another. I was basing my “home boy” observation off of the very favorable blog postings on your site about JJ. Somehow, you seem to have really admired him at one time.
When it comes to speaking out about the abuses of those in the IFB, I have been and will continue to be an outspoken critic. I have also criticized the Sword, which routinely covers up sin and wickedness in their own camp, while trumpeting the sins of others. So, you and I are in agreement on this.
Although I am always chagrined when the media gets involved, one thing that could come of this is that we will think through what we should be doing from a Biblical perspective. We’ll see.
So Bob,
How do you explain all the synergism in the YRR that they find necessary to “grow” their churches? Is it just inconsistent monergism or are they showing what they really believe about how God works?
This is where this all gets complicated. God told us to spank, like that would have some effect on the outcome of a child. He also told us to reprove, like that would have an effect on outcome. And He said that Eli did not restrain his sons, which had an effect on the outcome. Isn’t attributing spanking to synergism just a form of hyper-Calvinism? It sounds like it to me. If it’s not that, it’s just an excuse for refusing biblical child training for a kind that more complements the world.
I’m no all-out supporter of Lester Roloff, but notice how he calls Roloff’s singing with the honey bees group “a marketing plan” at the beginning. Doesn’t that poison the well that he could take such a cynical view of Roloff’s worship? I think we’ve got to be a little more balanced here, Bob. You can’t give CNN a free pass when you know they would see you as a fundamentalist too, a total right winger. After all, you are very exclusive as to who gets into heaven and who doesn’t. You are intolerant in that way, an absolutist. They would hate your view of predestination. CNN has an agenda that is using Jocelyn Zichterman for their own purposes. Anyone with an iota of understanding can see that. They would want to take away ALL spanking and freedom of Christian parents, and will gladly use these examples to accomplish that. This same crowd is also pro-homosexual and homosexual marriage on the cultural issues. So you want to be careful on what you are doing here, Bob.
I plan to be careful. I have attacks coming at from the other side saying I’m not doing enough to blow the horn against all the IFB churches. I have to steer the road I believe God would have me tread.
Now CNN has an agenda on many issues, I’m sure. That said, what the report has focused on is something that is wrong, and gets a free pass or brushed under the rug often enough in fundamentalism, it would seem. I’m for spanking, but the Bible isn’t as clear about the how, why, and when as some would have us think.
I don’t think he was impugning the singing or worship, he was saying having a quartet and flying around the country promoting your organization was a marketing tactic. And to be frank, it absolutely was.
As for synergism and monergism, yes it’s hard to be consistent. I just see the tendency to be extreme in how we raise kids depending on physical power in spanking or on the frequency of spankings, as having an Arminian flair to it. That being said, we do cooperate with God by obeying him, and God works through means, I know that. But there is a difference in how I raise my children being informed by Calvinism’s all-sovereign, heart-changing God, than how I think I would if I didn’t have that breadth of understanding.
Roloffs “marketing plan” is no different than college tour groups going church to church to promote their school.
The YRR guys are inconsistent with their theology and practice…MacArthur pointed that out in the videos you posted on your blog.
CNN and the liberal media definitely do have an agenda to make corporal discipline illegal.
But none of that takes away from the fact that in IFBdom, there is a clear consistent pattern of abuse whether it be physical, emotional, power mongering, etc…
William,
I can’t say that I disagree with you at all with this comment. I’m just looking for balance. The way to punish an HH is by not using the place and by separating from it. That lack of separation is one reason I don’t want to be known as a fundamentalist. I believe there is more to separate over than just the gospel, which includes unrepentant sin. However, it isn’t like this type of activity represents everybody who uses the name independent and fundamental and Baptist. Saying there is that close of tie between churches is just purposefully misrepresenting those churches. Anybody visiting them will find a wide, wide variety.
Where did God tell us to spank, Kent?
Well Kent your fellow KJVO IFBx David Cloud is a big promoter of Ron Williams and HH. The IFB is more interlinked than you might care to acknowledge.
When I attended that bastion of fundamentalist moderation, Baptist Bible College in Springfield, MO, a prison minister who spoke in chapel pointed out that child abuse rates are highest among fundamentalists, and urged us to avoid such an extreme. I’m grateful that out of the many IFB churches I attended over the years, that only one was just barely touching the hem of this kind of extremism, and I never heard of any such cases in my churches. Looks like congregations are right to move in such a “worldly” manner that they forsake some of what is considered the “old fashioned” way of doing things.
Old fashioned doesn’t equate to being the best or what’s right in many cases, this included. Good points, John.
And somehow the house has kept on running for nearly 40 years…
Somehow the house kept running? Hephzibah House kept running precisely because men like you ignored it until a national news service did a story on it, to your shame. Among all the other tremendous indictments of the ungodly, unbiblical and disobedient church government embraced by the IFB, Hephzibah House is just one more evidence of Fundamentalism’s failure and disobedience. How dare you say “somehow.” The method is obvious to anybody who fears God and is genuinely horrified by these abominations committed and permitted in His name. Hephzibah House succeeded because it’s a little monster spawned by a bigger monster: the IFB.
Jeri,
1) Thanks for doing the documentary. Well done.
2) I have tried my best to take a stand against IFB abuse. I am not in an IFB church, and I don’t envision myself going back to one. But I’m not prepared to write them all off as forcefully as some would. I think there are good people who are in the IFB church, and while there are strictures and forms of government and patterns which are unhealthy, it doesn’t have to lead to abuse such as we find in this case. I stand against hyper-fundamentalism, but there are many varieties of fundamentalism and not all are equally damaging, in my opinion.
3) I support any reform that people make, and for some growing and awakening to problems can result in them finding a better IFB church, or taking a stand in their church. In some cases the churches are reforming and transforming. And fundamentalism in some sectors is waking up. I applaud all this, and don’t want to just lob grenades from the sidelines. For others leaving the IFB is the natrual result of their awakening, and that’s how it happened for me. I’m just reluctant to step in and say for everyone they should leave their church.
4) My hesitancy to write off the movement in no way defends and preserves H.H., and I’m not in any position to effectively do much about it. I’m awakening to the problem there and so I’m speaking out against it. I don’t see how this makes me culpable for their wrongdoing.
5) At the end of the day, I’m accountable to God for my family and my life, and for doing what I believe God is leading me to do. I believe through this blog I try to help people confused or harmed by fundamentalism and that is one of the missions I have. I’m sorry I’m not saying everything you’d want me to, but then I’m saying things that many people, even some very close to me, do not want me to. I hope you can understand.
Blessings in Christ,
Bob Hayton
P.S. I don’t want to continue this conversation and turn this into a back and forth brawl or anything. I get where you’re coming from, and I’ve tried to explain where I’m at.
I find it interesting how an entire segment of former HH students gets ignored in this thing. They have, after all, invited people to ask them.
Bob, I don’t believe that Don Williams owes an explanation to CNN. I think that has to be considered in this sort of thing.
That being said, some of this is caused by the very nature of their ministry. I think we have to acknowledge that. The point was made (I think by William Durning) that these girls are coming from very different backgrounds and walks of life. Some of the “horror stories” could be the result of perception based on these different walks of life. A “one-size-fits-all” approach, which Ron Williams certainly advocated, could have this affect.
Jeri,
If IFB’s created Hephzibah, then Chicago created Henry Holmes and his house of horrors.
Your defense of HH is reprehensible. Also, the IFB did indeed create Hephzibah House and every other monster that runs rampant in the wicked, corrupt, and depraved IFB movement.
Here is CNN trying to put Hephzibah House down and embarass folks that are trying to make a difference and help straighten out some girls that are having problems with their family. Their family has requested that they be helped by Hephzibah House. Of course there will be some that disagree with the strict rules. There will be some that will not be changed by the treatment that they have received. I am not encouraging harsh physical harm as that would not be right.
Why doesn’t CNN take a look at the girls that have been helped over the 40 years that the Wiliams have provided this ministry. Lets not use this to put down the IFB.
I’m amazed that someone could be so demented as to even now defend Hephzibah House.
I’m concerned by the many who have left Hephzibah House and turned their back on Christianity altogether in part because of the traumatic experience they had during their time there. That to me is very alarming, and the kinds of things on the audio documentary that is shared, are very sad and tragic. I’m sure there is good intentions behind them, but I fear they are doing more harm than good. There are websites and forums where former Hephzibah House girls share their stories. It may be Hephzibah House had changed some of their tactics, and that would be good. But this is not the best way to treat these girls, if this picture is accurate. And with so many testimonies at hand, and without testimony from Hephzibah House explaining how these girls were mistaken, I have to conclude it is what happened.
Ron Williams said that most of us could not be saved and he later told a church that a mere 1% of the young girls subjected to his “ministry” go on to be godly Christian women. I do not much care about all your different religions, or whose fault it is. It doesn’t matter. That life was so fatalistic and we knew that. We knew, because were told all the time that most of us were hell bound.
Mallinak– You didn’t live it. You were not there in that place. You do not know any of us, and clearly you do not even know the women you speak of. Ron doesn’t take girls in unless they come from a Bible believing Baptist..yada, yada… church. You know, all of Ron’s intake paperwork and requirements are available for your viewing pleasure on our website. Why not take the time to read his requirements before assuming you know who we are. Yes, quite a few of our backgrounds are abusive before HH, because the religion that we were raised on is abusive. Why do you think we want nothing to do with religion? Fundamental Christianity has known for years what sort of man Ron was and they did nothing about him. Why would they? There are loads of other homes out there just like HH. Religious cash cows making money off tormenting IFB kids. They don’t care and every child who has ever gone to one of these homes knows that. Fundamental Christianity was the lethal unlit gas and Ron just set the fire. And now, all these years later, men in their lofty churches suddenly want answers. We are not fooled by you or your various religions.
Amy,
I don’t like to blog, because it seems so blunt and harsh at times, which I don’t want you to have that impression. But, I was wondering, how you ended up at HH? What could your parents have done differently to keep you on the “straight and narrow” (so to speak)?
I had an abusive childhood growing up, but looking back I know God didn’t do it, though he allowed me to go through it. He also allowed Paul to be beaten a number of times, imprisoned and stoned, to be left for dead. Yet, he never once denied Christ or displayed bitterness toward his ministry or the life he surrendered to. Others, such as, Joseph, John and a few others stood-fast in the faith, while enduring similar treatment.
Hyper-IFB churches, I believe, can be too much for Christians to endure, especially the abusive ones, but we cannot deny what gives us eternal life because of life’s circumstances.
In Christ,
Mike
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Since when is spanking not proper? It worked for me and it is Biblical. Or maybe you all know more than God?