Another Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) leader is dismissed amid a national scandal. First Baptist Church of Hammond Indiana, which boasts the world’s largest Sunday School and membership of 15,000, issued the following press release yesterday:
At this time, we deeply regret the need to announce that First Baptist Church has dismissed our pastor, Dr. Jack Schaap, due to a sin that has caused him to forfeit his right to be our pastor. First Baptist Church is in full cooperation with our local authorities in their investigation of this matter. Our church grieves over the need to take this action and the impact it will have on our people.
We ask that everyone pray for the families involved and pray that the situation will be handled in a Christ honoring manner. We look forward to the days ahead as we continue to service the needs of our surrounding community and the Chicago area.
For any media-related questions, please contact First Baptist Church spokesman, Eddie Wilson at (219) 945-6475.
What has come out in various media reports so far is that Schaap had an affair with sexually abused a sixteen year old girl. The deacons of the church found out, and reported the matter to the authorities. While the church thinks nothing criminal has happened, the police are investigating a crime. The age of consent in Illinois is 18 and some of the dalliances allegedly happened in Illinois and Michigan. Additional details have been shared on Facebook and StuffFundiesLike.com, alleging that a picture of Schaap in a compromising situation with this girl was found on his cell phone which a deacon had found lying around somewhere. And this sonds correct since the church moved so swiftly in this case. In any case, the police have also brought in the FBI and the story is attracting a large media presence. More details will eventually emerge, I’m sure.
Some are saying “I told you so.” See the comments here on Sharper Iron. I do think we should pray for First Baptist and for Schaap’s wife, Cindy, especially. Schaap was known for his edgy statements about sex and intimacy and how this describes the union we have with Christ (see here and here). Maybe we should have expected that this day would come.
But the lessons to be learned from Schaap’s fall are wider than his own issues. Schaap was “king on the mountain” in his arena in fundamentalism. Even though he didn’t share the singular adulation that his father-in-law, Jack Hyles, did from a large segment of independent fundamental Baptists, he nevertheless controlled his church and ministry with a similar sense of bravado and hubris. And this is one of the biggest problems I have with many IFBs. Authoritarianism. Pastors living as “the Untouchables” among the peons of their church. The Holy “Man of Gawd” mentality, that we cannot “touch the Lord’s Annointed.” All of this sets up these men for big falls. At least when Schaap fell, he didn’t hand out “100% for Jack” buttons like his father-in-law did.
We have seen high profile scandals emerge lately from all across the IFB movement (and some have been keeping count). I suppose it is fair to point out that the Roman Catholics and even the Southern Baptists (as fundamentalist leader Bob Gray points out) have had their share of molestation cases. But as it is with the Catholics, in the IFB movement, there is a level of authoritarianism built into the very structure of the movement. And openness and accountability do not pervade the structures of the movement.
Over the years, I’ve covered several of the scandals here: ABC News 20/20 report on Chuck Phelps and CNN’s report on Fairhaven and Hephzibah House, are the newest and most high profile cases. But when an evangelist that I knew during my time in a IFB college (Rodney Stewart) fell, I had some specific thoughts about why pastor’s fall. Those thoughts are worth reading again. We all do need to take care lest we ourselves fall.
But to conclude this post, if the IFB movement is to have any future worth mentioning, they are going to have to move toward an elder-rule, accountability-focused leadership style. May Jack Schaap’s fall encourage more IFB churches to change. And I hope that for the first time in nearly 50 years, First Baptist of Hammond doesn’t host a national pastor’s school. Instead may they seek God’s Word for counsel and meditate on how they can protect their church from this kind of scandal and all the harm it does to everyone in the congregation.
CLARIFICATION: I mean “mutual-leadership by a plurality of elders rather than only a “elder-rule” leadership. I believe elders can operate effectively in a congregational style church (such as was the norm with historic Baptists in America), and that there can even be a “first among equals”. My main point is that too many IFB churches have an “untouchable” pastor who is “the Lord’s Anointed”, and he stands above the fray and above any kind of meaningful accountability.
There are several reasons why I am no longer in an IFB church and have no desire to retun to one and single pastor “leadership” is one of them. Thanks for writing this.
I know you’re just quoting another source, but a man of Jack Schaap’s age cannot have an “affair” with a 16 year old girl. He could prey on her, violate her dignity, abuse his position and influence to compromise her, abuse her . . .
Use all manner of abominative descriptors, but please, let’s not allow this to be called an affair.
Very good point, Dave. I was being careful in how I talked about it because legally in Indiana, 16 is the age of consent. But you are correct, in my book he has violated and abused her – if the allegations are true.
This same moral failure (not a kid, though) just happened at a large-ish IFB church in Lexington, KY — but the pastor is still in his job. We have elderly friends from PCA backgrounds who were shocked to realize that the church had no elders, no accountability system at all. The pastor, he is keeng.
What church?
You can PM me at revjab@gmail.com. I only know about this because the elderly couple are friends of our family.
I would like to know what church as well. I truly hope it is not who popped into my mind at first. I cannot take anymore of this. Even though we should not put men on pedastals we all have heroes in the ministry and preachers we look up to. Dr Schaap was one of mine (even though i am not IFB anymore. I went SBC long ago. It is still devastating to me.
If this is the church I think it is, while we never went to it, we used to live in Lexington, KY, and I too can’t help but wonder if it’s who I think it is. If it is, then boy what a sad commentary this is on the IFB movement as a whole.
Bob,
I agree with you. Our family recently left an IFB church in Indianapolis over this very issue. Deacon boards are set up many times to be nothing more than a “kangaroo court” and yes men for the pastor/king. The same men who many times make up the search committee to call the pastor are expected to keep him accountable? I do not think that it is healthy and promised my wife that we would never be members of a church with that structure again. I suspect that they won’t change and chalk it up to “not changing” and “sticking with the stuff”. I have many family still members at FBC Hammond and this just might be the straw that broke the camel’s back. We will see how the investigation goes. For now we need to keep the victim(s), Jack’s family, and the members there in our prayers.
Matthew
Well said, Bob. I’m grateful to finally be far enough removed from my IFB background (which includes a worthless degree from the aforementioned cesspool) that no one in my current ministry has heard of nor connects me with this latest tsunami of shame. I often say that it would be easier for me to explain a degree from Brigham Young or Notre Dame than it is to explain my undergraduate piece of paper. I would point out, that in quoting Bob Grey’s missive about the scandal that he pulls his alleged “statistics” about the rate of molestation/sexual crimes and sins among IFB ministries vs the SBC or others. There are no such statistic available anywhere for the IFB (they are way too loosely defined and disorganized to create any reliable empirical evidence) and none has been commissions by or for the SBC either. So it’s just another, rather-typical example of an IFB icon using concocted “evidence” (wink-wink) to make a rather irrelevant point. (Even one case is too many and pointing at the alleged greater sins of another group in no way mitigates the horrific and abominable stench that has arisen out of unaccountable IFB ministries of every strong from Hyles, to BJU, to TTU, to Maranatha, to Northland, to Trinity or whatever either branch of the IFB tree one wishes to reference.) There is a dangerous co-relation between extreme fundamentalist sects of every religious affiliation from Mormon to Muslim which have a low view of women, a deep commitment to control, highly centralized authority surrounding individually powerful leaders or leader and rampant sexual immorality. It really is worthy of investigation. Good article, Bob. I hope folks will listen.
Thanks, Daniel. I doubt Gray’s stats too. I had never heard a number actually given of IFB churches before, either. It does come down to “deep commitment to control” and “highly centralized authority”. And in Schaap’s case, definitely a “low view of women,” too, it would seem.
the obvious point that you are overlooking is that there WAS accountability. The deacons DID take care of business. They could have covered up but they are the ones who brought it to light.
It its a shame that some foam at the mouth when they witnesses a fallen fundamentalist. Is it Biblical yo rejoice I when a man of God falls in din just do you can justify yourself?
GNC,
I am thankful that there was some accountability, yes. The deacons did the right thing. I commend them. I think that the level of accountability, however, was far less than it should have been. As more details come to light, this may come out even more.
The leadership structure there, you would have to admit, was top-down to the extreme. Jack Hyles is famous for bringing his deacon’s up in front of the Pastor’s School crowds and commanding them to sit, drop down, or do other things at the snap of his fingers. That level of control is almost maniacal. And do we have reason to believe that Schaap would have had less of a high hand in his leadership style, when he was trying to live up to Hyles’ legacy?
There was some accountability, and that stems from the congregational church structure. But a plurality of elders would have helped even more. It could have been a check from the beginning that would make this kind of thing less likely to happen.
Be careful! No where does it state in the Bible that an “elder run church” is the way God designed the authority of the Church. One of the big challenges here is that this church is so big you get lost in it! The bigger the church the less accountability from the pastor. This is why the churches were “scattered abroad” after they hit 3 to 4 thousand in the new testament and you don’t see churches mentioned after that that held more than 150 people and they were held in houses! (I challenge you to find differently!)
I’ve seen the flip side of churches that do have “Elders” and they “run” the church and the Pastor has no say! There has to a be a balance – and the balance is: Pastor led church with Deacons as the Pastor’s right hand – The Elders of the church will not give an account to Christ for how the church was run, the Pastor will! I think pastors forget this or they would not do the things they do! (or even think about them).
Jack Schaap is 54 years old and as much as the people adored him he is still human. We don’t know his private life, we don’t know his married life, we don’t know what was going on with him outside of his Church life. I don’t condone what he did – but the people reading this article and these comments are already “convicting” him without knowing the full truth- and even then Christ said “He that is without sin among you let him cast the first stone.” We should be praying for this church, for this man and his family – as well as the young woman and her family that was involved (if the allegations are true.)
Jujubes:
You are mistaken, see my comment here on the multiple elders issue.
This kind of situation is nothing new for the FBI and it’s only a matter of time before they find a way to extinguish this awful system that gives these men too much power and very limited (if at all) accountability. I know a couple who has briefed authorities on how the IFB system and dogma works. The FBI has trained professionals who know what perversion is involved with highly intelligent people who find every loop hole imaginable and Dr Gibbs is their ‘legal counsel’. Gotta look at how he ‘advises’ these pastors. He even printed his ‘advice’ on dealing with accusations of molestation in the church. In the CLA newsletter it said to protect the worker accused, the church institution, investigate on your own THEN decided if YOU (the pastor) thinks it should be reported to the cops. In May 2012 issue.
That is terrible advice. I recommend anyone looking for better advice about handling accusations of abuse to check with a group like GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment). You may consider listening to this interview with the director of that organization.
I agree!
CLA newsletter- May 2012- Article: How to avoid pitfalls in your Children’s Ministry.
First- every church should have a screening process in place.(more in the paragraph)
Second-every church should have a formal written policy regarding its children’s ministry.
Third, every church must properly respond to abuse allegations. If abuse allegations are made, the pastor should immediately contact the church’s attorney to ensure proper handling of the situation. The church should conduct an internal investigation of the allegations. You should inform the worker of the allegations and discuss the situation with the worker. You MUST IMMEDIATELY remove the accused from their position while the investigation is conducted. This protects the worker and the ministry. You should also contact your insurance carrier and put them on notice. After discussing your findings with your attorney, you would decide then whether this situation requires reporting to the authorities.
Doesn’t really sound like advice on “how to cover up” but advice on “How to properly investigate an allegation.”
Jeff,
Thanks for quoting from that piece. That doesn’t sound as bad as advertised.
Awesome job slandering! You Hyles haters have always gone above and beyond your duty to not be right with God! I’m sure the devil loves having you as his ally!
Rico,
I have been very careful not to slander here. I have linked to media reports and I am sure more information will come to light eventually.
FBC Hammond has stated there was improper behavior that has happened, and they have removed Jack Schaap from being their pastor.
This is news. But it is also something that should prompt reflection on how this happened, and why things like this seem to happen more often among IFB churches. I think it is a lesson that we need more accountability in leadership. An open-minded study on church leadership in Acts, for instance, shows that elders were appointed in each city. “Elder” is equivalent with “Pastor” in 1 Tim. 3 and in Acts 20. Titus also shows that multiple elders were in each city in a small place such as Crete. It is apparent that the NT churches had multiple elders (not ruling out a first among equals idea, but a group of leaders not a single dictator is in view).
1 Pet. 5 comes in here as well. Leaders should not lord over the flock, and that is what often happens in abuse cases. An aura of “untouchable” status, does not facilitate the kind of leadership the NT envisions.
I have personally went to this church, my dad is a pastor, and growing up in a pastor’s house we had no choice on going to revivals, and knowing everything that gets swept under the rug from living in a pastors house I know that their is ALOT of illegal activities in a church, BUT just because they are a pastor everyone thinks that it is ok so I’m glad that finally some(it would suprise you at some of the stuff I know, I could write a great book lol)e action is being taken against pastor’s. Just remember it does not mean that everyone that goes to that church is a hypocritical bastard! I personally know people that go to that church, and they are good people.
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
It’s sad indeed – the whole fundamental Bible mess we have gotten ourselves into. I am a fundamental Bible Believing Baptist, however, I have rarely, if ever heard Galatians 5 preached as it is written. The whole chapter is a sobering reminder to BELIEVERS what will happen when we ignore or misapply the truth to US. It does NOT say, the lost are the only ones susceptible to sin, it says, . . .
Gal 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
[THERE’S LIMITED TIME TO INDULGE THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH IF WE WALK IN THE SPIRIT!]
Gal. 5:19 states: “NOW the works of the FLESH are ….” The FLESH of a Believer is NO different than the FLESH of a non-believer!! Do we get it now!??
That is one reason God said that “no FLESH should glory in his presence. . .”
Couple the above passages with Romans 7 and we get a clearer picture of what is happening in our lives!!
Amen, Larry. We need to “take heed lest we fall”, too in this. I believe that emphasizing eternal security and the doctrine of assurance can have negative consequences. Being so quick to affirm new believers of their status, can also set them up to not know how to handle sin properly. The New Testament was not about counting noses and reporting baptism numbers. And too often churches get swept up in the race to be the biggest and best.
It is the work of the Gospel in the hearts of believers that can work to gradually make them more and more conformable to Christ. When we lose sight of what grace really is, and when we emphasize external conformity to our written rules, we are setting them up for a performance-based Christianity. We feel right with God dependent on how well we are performing and measuring up, rather than on the basis of Christ’s work.
Galatians is key. Chapter 3 verses 1-5 teach that in the same way that we are saved (by hearing the gospel and responding with faith), that this is the same way we are to be sanctified. It is not on the basis of our works, but in our response of faith.
Just another reason for bashing the IFB. If an IFB church hides such sin, you bash the IFB as a whole along the church (which the church should be held accountable). In this instance it looks as though as soon as this was discovered it was reported (which is the right thing to do) and what do you do? you bash it. So just go ahead and admit that regardless of the rightness or wrongness of activities within an IFB church you are going to bash the whole lot. To use the illustration, you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
It is ridiculous to make such a statement as that there needs to be elder-rule in order to avoid such sin. You bring up the fact that the RC has had these same issues, well, guess what, they’re the epitome of elder rule and it didn’t help them, did it. Preachers have fallen in sin in a elder rule church just as they have in other church polity settings.
I am not condoning the way that Schaap and his father ran First Baptist. It is and was wrong. The Scriptures are quite clear that elders are not to lord over God’s flock. Whether you have one elder or many matters not. Many elders can and have lorded over God’s flock just as one elder has. Many elders is not “the” solution that you seem so naively to think it is. Sin is a universal problem which transcends all human contrivances to stop its activities. We are freed from the power of sin in Christ but we are not yet freed from the presence of sin and until such time as we are, we will have a battle which can only be won in the power of God.
As a rule, these kinds of things are not self-disclosed in IFB circles. So you have a point. What we have here, though, is another case of a leader in an IFB church abusing his position of power. FBC Hammond did the right thing, and I’m hoping that they rethink their leadership structure going forward.
It is not so much multiple elders that is the cure all, as it is mutual accountability. The RC model is very top-down in how it implements elders. I’m thinking of pastor-elders in a chruch being on a level playing ground and holding one another in check and accountable.
In general, this doesn’t happen very often or very well in IFB churches. The same could be said of other church groups too. And there are excellent exceptions to the rule.
I’m saying that to prevent these kinds of things going forward, the IFB movement should have less of an emphasis on men and more care in how the leadership is structured. But yes, this won’t eliminate sin as being the problem. It will help the churches find that sin before it escalates to such levels, perhaps.
There are multiple problems in this sector of the IFB movement, in my book. My site tries to address those. But again, there are problems everywhere and in every heart. My solution is not to throw all IFBs under the bus or to walk away and never come back. It varies by individual situation. I think care is needed in dealing with this issue. For some, leaving the IFB movement is needed. But I hope that many churches and people in the IFB movement change for the better. I think if you spend some time at my site you’ll see I’m not entirely anti-IFB. There are positive things that fundamentalists have brought Christianity as a whole, and I’m thankful for them. I see, and I think many others see, that the movement as a whole is at a tipping point. Aiming toward mutual accountability and plurality in leadership would be one positive way forward.
Thanks for bringing some clarification to your initial thoughts. Here is a novel approach to all this: how about we follow God’s Word, we are accountable to each other in our local assemblies. The likes of FBC Hammond have been shunned by many other IFB’s, sure are still those out there trying to imitate and as long as they have congregations which allow their abuse of authority, then it will continue. The congregation is in one sense getting what they deserve.
As I am studying for our mid-week study I have been in I Peter 5:1-4 today. If pastors (or if you prefer to be called elder) would live the Book as God expects us and if our congregations demanded this of us, a lot of these problems would never occur because we would be living within the fear (both aspects of this word, yes, literal fear of what God can do and the reverential awe of our God) of the Lord. When we deviate from God’s instructions in His Word troubles will always follow in our wake. Live in the Light of God’s Word, simple enough, yet a full time job.
Might want to take a look at this site.. http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org
Grew up in a IFB church where the Pastor, Music Director and Youth Pastor were all three molesting teens and adult women in the church.. And people knew it was happening.
There is no way that NO one knew this could be going on. It is also not the first time that this has happened at FBC Hammond. You would think that a church that has had its fair share of scandal would have safe guards in place.
I understand that Schaap is just a man, but these situations happen way too often when one person has too much power.
I know all too well what this sixteen year old girl must be going through. I too was abused by an IFB preacher, who was old enough to be my grandfather. He had me brainwashed for many years.
I spoke out in order to help parents keep the same type of abuse from happening to their children. This news of Schaap sickens me, saddens me, and makes me angry, but it does not shock me.
For you parents who want to know in detail how men like Schaap work- my book is ‘Preacher’s Pet’. The monster in my book isn’t Schaap, but I’m sure they all work the same way.
http://www.preacherspet.com
Amanda,
Thanks for sharing. I apologize that your comment was lost in my spam queue.
Blessings,
Bob
UPDATE: see this great post by Greg Dietrich as to some thoughts on how we should respond to this news:
http://5solas.me/the-tragedy-at-first-baptist-in-hammond/
Great post Bob. New to the site.
I find this whole situation to be disgusting. Being a mother to three children I am always wondering am I protecting my children enough. Most of us think our children are safe at church, but in reality that is just no so. Sexual predators just love the churches. Most do not even run back ground checks before allowing them to be a Sunday School teacher.
I’ve heard of too many stories within the IFB, SBC, and RC Churches… If someone knows about the abuse they are just as guilty for hiding it, and not reporting it!
Support the victims of abuse. Do not sit here and tell me how great a person he was. He chose to sin, he chose to break the law.
Those who abuse their power, will be held accountable. Pastor’s that allow this, or do this, will have to answer to God. I don’t think HE will take it lightly.
So go ahead continue to get mad at Bob or any of us who are willing to speak the truth. You have nothing to stand on to justify what this man, or any other men in this type of position have done.
Don’t bury your heads in the sand folks.
So sad. Though we all have feet of clay, one of Satan’s most used tactics is deception of thinking we are the exception. Take guard over Pastor Jack Schaap lest he take his own life like others recently. My heart aches. My prayers to the victim, the accused, the families and the church.
yet another reason to toss the entire hypocritical bronze age superstitious mess into the trashcan. I did after 29 years of being a Christian. I got sick of the hypocrisy, the lies and the justifications such as the one above “Take guard over pastor Jack Schaap”??? Are you kidding me? He’s a slimeball child molester. Put him in general population where he’ll learn what submission really means the piece of filth. SOOOOO sick of Xtians supporting the perpetrators and backing them up with so-called scriptures from a book written by ignorant men about Jehovah, the most loathsome, vile, child rape enabling genocidal ego maniac ever conceived by the mind of man. to hell with all religion and it’s servants. The world will be afar better place when this edifice known as Christianity crumbles into blood soaked dust forever.
Gary –
It sounds like your world view has made you a very kind and loving person.
[sarcasm]
Do you get the impression that Christians are condoning this sin? No!
If we take a look at how human life has been valued in pagan cultures, we may very easily dismiss your comments.
Gary, I understand and appreciate your anger, but lets not let our emotion cause us to paint with so broad a brush. A person of even a passing knowledge of the Bible knows that the Christ did not teach the things you associate with our faith.
Oh this is an easy one to figure out. Gary, you are just as unsaved as you were before you started to act saved 29 years ago. Your behavior bothers me none. You are acting exactly the way you are suppose to act. You will believe one day.
@ Stephan George
The exception is most adult human beings (decent, moral people) don’t go looking for sex with underage girls or boys.
Those that do, are sex offenders.
It’s sad, but we should NOT put J.S. on a peddlestool, because we should take heed lest we be like him. <—- yes we will sin, but what he did was also against the law!
Too focused on “works” and not on a “personal relationship” with Jesus!!!! IBF is focused on what everyone is wearing, how they comb their hair, if they read their Bible (not studied and meditated on it), if everything on the outside appears perfect (not focused on the inside)!!! I am sorry to vent!! I know there are a lot of wonderful people associated with this denomination, these people are AWESOME christians (some family of mine). I am just sick of the teachings and actions of many who in their self righteousness condemn and judge others so harshly and the lack of Godly wisdom is so apparent!!!!!!!!!!! Most of the RULES are man made and not even found in scripture. There are many innocent people who truly know nothing else because they aren’t allowed or strongly discouraged to read or listen to anything but IFB authors, teachers and preachers. Each denomination has their own theology which is just that! Theology is great if it follows the word of God. Please read and learn for yourself folks!! The freedom in serving God is AWESOME when it’s not bound up with RULES AND REGULATIONS OF MEN!!!!!! The Holy Spirit leads us if we listen and follow. A preacher/leader is not your God, Jesus is!! Follow Jesus!!! This is a sad day for all christians, anytime another believer chooses sin.
Interesting posts. I am deeply saddened as I shouls because this hurts the cause of Christ…was I saddened by Jim Baker or others of the faith that have fallen??? No I wasn’t because I didn’t know them. I know Jack Schapp and family and it is a shock…we should all be in prayer for those that are affected by this. To Gary Parker…I hope you don’t give up on God, he doesn’t give up on you or I…He is all loving and caring. 8P52
Former IFB Preacher: Reformed Intinerate Pastor:…This is horrible. 15,000 lives are and will be in turmoil. I pray God opens their eyes as He did mine. “Executive CEO Pastors” will be the death of this movement. All the rule they want, all the power they want and all the privacy they want. Zero accountability to the Church. Absolute authority leads to absolute corruption.
Let’s be careful not to use this tragedy as a platform for our theological and ecclesiastical ideals.
People are hurting right now and will be for some time. Let’s allow folks to bleed and do our best to provide comfort and strength. As blood-washed children of God who love the Truth, we need to ready ourselves for the coming storm.
The enemy is Satan. He is poised to strike crushing blows. We need courage and lots of it if we are to endure the attacks to come. The coming days will be difficult for all those who follow Jesus and look for his appearing. Do not forget that we are peculiar and will stand out in the crowd. That makes us a target.
Bind up the wounded, encourage the hearts of the brethren, keep your eyes on Christ.
God bless.
There are accountability problems in all top-heavy churches. Look at CJ Mahaney — he wasn’t guilty of immorality, but he was guilty of “over-lording” his congregation and then black-mailing a critic. The Sovereign Grace churches have the same accountability problems, plus the added problem of being charismatic so that leaders often claim to be apostles or anointed or some-such.
But @Bob H — are we doing enough across all denominational lines to deal with sexual lust, in terms of sanctification teaching? It’s like some sort of cancer that is spreading through every limb of the ecclesiastical body.
Sounds just like the current Pastor of (ironically) First Baptist Church in Silvis, IL except this current pastor covered up for the youth pastor who had covered up for his affair first. Sometimes church government doesn’t matter. Those who want to sin in secret will find a way to keep it that way. Thank God for the person who discovered the truth in the Hammond IN church and didn’t ignore it. I hope there was only one victim here, but these pedophiles almost always repeat offenses in one way or another.
Bob,
I believe I grew up in a church where your dad served in the Detroit area. My dad worked with your dad in the bus ministry. I have read your blog and am so very proud of the stand you are taking. I would love to chat more. I am no longer in an IFB church, either.
As to the latest HAC/FBH issue, not a surprise. I agree an elder based church is more of a biblical model and is what my husband and I seek in a church.
Hi,
I’ll email you. Use my contact form if you don’t get the email.
Thanks,
Bob
What amazes me the most about most of these posts is how little of God’s Word is known by the posters. A New testament church is not run by deacons – deacons (Acts 6) under the direction of the pastor. You people sound like Moses’ older bother and younger sister. God leads the leader and if the leader fouls up, it is God that takes care of that and He doesn’t need half-witted self-professed theologians to take His place in taking care of His man – not deacons, elders, you people need to understand the New Testament Church; you Mr. Burton obviously do not. Abraham (and Sarah) fouled up – it was no small thing. The whole middle East problem came from that, but God took care of Abraham and on more than one occasion, It was true with Moses, David, and all the rest of the sinners in the Bible. God took care of it. I am not justifying what Schaap has done whatever it is. However, I find no biblical precedent for a mis-trained deacon board to take it upon themselves to touch God’s anointed. A spiritual (Gal 6) man may have counseled him to resign and take time to heal in the process of restoration. You people want to stone him to death! Call me, I’ll send all of you without sin a bag of rocks to throw at him! Bunch of stinkin’ hypocrites! RSB
R.S.,
Your post is appalling. You are excusing a pastor’s sin, saying that God overlooks it because He needs “his man”. Last I checked, Jack Schaap wasn’t an anointed prophet. Or an apostle.
I’m not saying God doesn’t work with men and work in spite of our sins. But there is no NT teaching that it’s okay for pastors to slip up when it comes to the pastoral qualifications. Pastors have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. OT saints did not. David was a political leader, Abraham was just a family leader, a pastor is a spiritual positions with spiritual qualifications. Uzzah slipped up as a priest, and died before he was restored.
I’m not saying there is no path to restoration, but excusing sin and blaming the deacons of Hammond for overstepping their bounds is absolutely unbelievable and uncalled for.
Just wanting to say I disagree with much of the philosophy of First Baptist and Hammond indiana, however As an Independent Baptist, I am not defined by what other men do. The Idea of Being Independent Baptist is to be able to be an autonomous local control governed by the whole body of the church and Led by the pastor not lorded by the pastor.
I do , however, find it disconcerting that we are so quick to take joy in the fall of another. Its like we can’t wait for someone to fall.
I think it has hurt our testimony and many families are obviously heartbroken about this. I wonder if we are willing to each reflect inwardly to ask God to reveal to us our own individual sins and forsake and confess them.
BTW He did not get away with it God found him out. God is a better disciplinarian than any of us could ever be.
bob i thinks it interesting you didnt have a comment for jujubees post. that post had more truth in it and yet you avoided it. i am a pk and i understand completely how some pastors can let it get to their head but just as david didnt attack saul he allowed God to handle it. a lot of churched that have the system you would pefer not only hinder the pastor to do what God may want him to do they eventually take control. that is not bibical. the pastor is incharge of the church he is the shepherd he is accountable for the church and the decisions made. no one else! The deacons did their job and did hold them accountable!
another point i want to make his father-in-law was falsely accused and was never proven guilty so you have no right to criticise him. leave him out of this mess! Unless you personally were abused by him you do not know so you have no right to throw stones.
We are all human we all sin each day whether its improper thoughts to adultery the thing is most of us do one of the six things the Lord hates and the 7th which is an abomination… like pride lying and sowing discord among the brethern.fornification is not on that list. David the man after Gods own heart stumbled to adultery and the baby died not because of his sin but for the sin of killing the womans husband. al that to say what he did is wrong yes! But we must be careful about throwing stones whic this article does. I honestly stumbled on this by accident and Im sorry but i felt i had to say something. in stead of being on this lets use our time to tell others about christ love for them!
KJV,
See below for my answer to that post. I was tied up at work and then music practice and unable to comment until now.
The fundamental flaw with any conservative ideology is that it presupposes that the past was perfect. In this, the constant focus remains fixed upon that past, and the duplication of it! When Jesus compared the Kingdom of Heaven to a tree growing, one has to take note that a tree looks externally different from generation to generation. In regards to: “Schaap was known for his edgy statements about sex and intimacy and how this describes the union we have with Christ (see here and here). Maybe we should have expected that this day would come.” – Bro. Schaap was exactly correct. Our transformative relationship by the anointing and supernatural empowerment of Christ is a growing into union! Fundamental leadership can be correctly paralleled to the spirit of the Pharisees who crucified Christ. They hold the keys to the Kingdom, and many keep their sheep enslaved to their own models and authority, instead of pointing to a relationship with the One true source of all authority! The institutional American Church is coming down, and all those found without God’s true heart for their sheep will be cast down – titles, college degrees n all.
None of this is about a “person”. Schaap is a super nice guy. The problem is with corrupt theology that leads to immorality. Look at the Catholic church and it’s corrupt theology and it’s immorality. That’s just to mention one that we all know of. We must correct of doctrine of God and man. God said, “You think that I am like you are…” that’s the modern opinion of God. He created us in His likeness, so He must be like us. That’s root of a lot sin. Saying that to say this. The IFB Must correct its soteriology. I believe their view of this doctrine as caused a multitude of sins. Of course this is a shallow comment and deserves hours of explanation. But I believe it’s true.
Super nice guys don’t fornicate with kids.
true…but he was super nice to me. Ive read about all there is to read on the issue thus far. Not sure I would say he has done that (yet).
I like how you brand all fundamental, independent churches. That is the point, they are independent. I go to a great church. Our pastor is a very humble man who often says he is just a sinner saved by grace. The truth is any person can fall into sin. We are all human. I would be careful casting stones at other people for someday it will be youy making a mistake and you will be hoping for mercy and grace. So why don’t you give a little of those things. What he did was wrong, but no amount of websites like this are going to help the cause of Christ, and that, my friend, is what we should be doing, furthing the cause of Christ.
IFB churches are all interlinked. The whole IFB culture is responsible for the widespread abuse in IFB churches. See http://www.jeriwho.net
Very true Nicholas…I spent 17 years in the IFB movement and was as good of an IFB’r as you could be. Started preaching 17 years ago as well. God began to illuminate certain things about 5 years ago for me and that is always the resulting revelation. It’s the culture that was created by prideful people in the 60’s and 70’s that has created this beast. We are not beating on one church or one man. Though there are certain men that were and are leaders in the movement. The issue is the culture. It’s really a modern culture, though people say that its the “old path”. Both extremes are modern…the conservitive IFB and the loose “watchamacallits”…both are culture issues.
RE: my aforementioned post . . . I must ask your forgiveness. While the truth of what I stated concerning the institutional church is true, I should not have moved in a spirit of retribution. I am sorry. Most of my life, I grew up in a Fundamental Church that misrepresented the Spirit of Christ, so I need to move in the new nature of unconditional forgiveness toward those who raised me. – Patrick, in regards to your soteriology comment – I believe that God is more like us then we often realize. Take pleasure for example, God designed pleasure. Why did He do that? It was not designed by mistake. Or, why did He command us to unconditionally love Himself and one another, when He knew that we do not inherently possess this love? In my prayer life, I have experienced an intimacy, fellowship, and communion that is deeper and closer than any human relationship that I’ve held. God is literally jealous of us. He wants to enjoy us, and He wants us to enjoy Him. He knows us better than we know ourselves, and there is a part of God that we can understand – we can understand His love – that we may know the height, and the width, and the depth of His love. The old nature is not created in God’s image – it’s defiled, but the new nature is most certainly a family resemblance to God. This is why He calls us Sons & Daughters. Every moment, we have a choice whether to walk in the new nature, or walk in the old.
“These things you have done and I kept silence; You thought that I was just like you; I will reprove you and state the case in order beore your eyes.” Ps 51:21.
Then He goes on to say He will crush them to powder. It’s a serious thing. Don’t take a statement and make it all enclusive. Of course we bear things in us that the Father posseses. That isn’t the point. The point is, that man, in a fallen state will always consider themselves and then suspect that God is like that. Also, redeemed man from their fallen state, once emerged into this modern form of Christianity will do the same. For example; We try to use our human fallen logic to determine if God would chose one over the other. He isn’t like you. He doesn’t have to operate according to your logic. “God is love, He would never send someone to hell without offering them salvation first,”. Well, of course He does. Just because you wouldn’t doesn’t mean He wouldn’t. Just because it doesn’t fit your logic doesn’t mean He won’t. It will always be about the glory of God my friend. That why everything is done. Not just because He love you to bits. He will bring glory to Himself through loving you. Of course that’s an example and can lead to an entirely different topic. God doesn’t have to mold to our logic. My point is this. I functioned as a IFB preacher for years. I know the gospel they preach “ask jesus in to your hearts-whoever does, will be saved-or God is a liar-He said He would and He don’t lie-Just repeat this prayer”. I know it well. It’s what the fallen human logic and mind want’s the gospel to be. Plus it fills churches up really fast. We think that way, therefore God must be that way. It’s in reference to Schaap and the IFB with an unbiblical gospel and unbiblical eldership. Both lead to big problems. Again, much more could be said, and nothing Ive said is exhausted. Of course we are like Him in ways (He is not like us). I hope you get my point.)
The Spirit speaks through the Bible to use the deepest relational terms to help even a child understand who God is, and what He desires. Heavenly Father. Bride. A friend who sticks closer than a brother. When we come as little children, throwing our entire trust upon the goodness of our unconditionally loving Father God, then, through the actions and promptings of our faith, we will come to “know” Him more and more. This is a process. A process of walking in our new nature, of letting our Heavenly Father relationally define who we are to Him and who He is to us. This is the process of sanctification through faith. Faith is dependent upon our revelation of who God is; for the more we understand who God is, the more we understand and trust in what God perfectly Wills, the more we understand what God Wills and partner with that Will, the more we are conformed to His likeness – the more we come to understand the true heart of God. Remember, Jesus said He was the Truth. He was saying, the more you know me, the more you will understand Truth. We cannot simply believe a set of facts to be true, and then claim to “know” God. “Knowing” is relational and it is intimate – a deep, closeness, that is more and more immovable. Arguments, and debates are held in the mind, but Jesus wishes for us to “know” Him in our hearts. How can we “know” someone who we hardly speak to? Yet, when we commune with our Heavenly Father, we behold His image, and we are conformed further into that image. This is our walk of faith, and it is why Peter could walk on the water – by beholding the image of Jesus. Yes, Peter fell when he allowed doubt, but Peter could walk on the water – the nature of Christ – when He trusted and relied upon Jesus Christ. By the way, when Satan tempted Eve, he was able to do so because God had created Eve’s heart to receive His nature. God had already designed man’s heart in such a way to want the attributes of God, and God wished to share these attributes – His nature – with man through relationship. Relationships are always reciprocal. You give to receive, to only be given again. Eve sinned, because she was enticed by “getting all” without “giving all” through relationship. Consider marriages. They always fail by a wanting to “get” more than a wanting to “give”. When we walk in our new nature, our focus is on what can we give God, what can we give others, and how thankful we are when we receive from both of these. This is how the Godhead relationally works – they all speak to each other, and they all admonish each other – they are all deeply in love with each other. This has been revealed to me through the relationship with the Holy Spirit, because He can teach all things! I understand your fear about the sheep mistaking God’s love to supercede His perfect and just judgements. God’s nature is perfection. God’s nature is unconditional love. God’s nature is forgiveness. God’s nature is goodness. God’s nature is Life! God’s nature is forever. Sin is not. Sin is not eternal, but sin is finite. Sin will not last. Sin is anything that is held apart from the perfection and Holiness of God. Unless fallen man receives God’s gift of His nature to live inside of us, and transform us more and more into His likeness, then we have no hope for our imperfections – they will die, they will wither like the grass, they will be consumed by the everlasting fires of God. To live with God in Heaven for eternity, is to be conformed into His likeness; for His likeness is the only thing that is eternal.
I am part of an IFB church, and this is makes me sick to my stomach. I can only imagine how God feels. I heard Jack Schapp preach a message about our Bible, that we don’t have an inspired or even a preserved Word of God. I am not interested in a debate on this issue, but with this kind of stand there is no absolute authority, no absolute truth. The preacher becomes the authority and make their own rules. Jesus is coming soon and cleaning house. He wants a pure bride. For those of you who make your own rules, you better clean it up. The rest of us better keep our eyes on Christ and tell others about Him
KJV-Onlyism, which you hold to, is heresy.
Several have said I’m wrong to recommend a plurality of elders. Here is some of the biblical case that I see for a plurality of worship.
PLURALITY of ELDERS
Elders in every church:
Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Plural elders ruling over the Hebrew Christians:
Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Hebrews 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
James assumes plural elders in a church:
James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Peter does too:
1 Pet. 5:1-2 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
[remember “you” is plural, not “thou” singular. Multiple elders feed the singular flock that is among them, the plurality of elders.]
Multiple elders in the church Ephesus and Philippi (Acts 20:17, Phil. 1:1)
Finally, the term “elder” is equated with “bishop” and “pastor” (the verb form of the Greek word which means pastor – “feed the flock”, “pastor” means literally “shepherd”) in Acts 20:28 and 1 Pet. 5:1-2. Elder and bishop are equated in 1 Tim. 3 and everyone knows that is the list of “pastoral” qualifications, although the word pastor is not used there.
The idea of a singular “man of God” is read into Scripture. It might apply to OT prophets, or NT apostles, but even then there was a plurality – especially of the apostles. But we can’t transfer that directly to the NT church. The idea that God overlooks the sin of pastors because He needs “his man” on the job, is ludicrous. Read 1 Tim. 5 about rebuking elders before all, that others may fear. The end doesn’t justify the means, sin is sin, and 1 Tim. 3 doesn’t paint a picture of a low bar when it comes to qualification. This isn’t an entrance exam. If you fail the standards after being installed, you are to be dismissed.
Bob, what was the structure of those city/regional churches? We don’t really know, do we. As an example, let’s look at Ephesus. In the first century there were approx. 200,000 to 300,000 people. How many believers in the city? Several thousand? Probably. What modern church, of any stripe that has thousands in attendance has only one “elder” or “pastor”? I don’t know of any. Not defending FBC of Hammond but even they have a “plurality” of “elders” or “pastors.” It is more than likely their structure is different than you are desirous of but they do have more than one. The thing about the first century church you seem to leave out is the the fact that they in all likelihood did not meet corporately all together but in smaller settings as a home could accompdate which would require multiple “elders” or “pastors” for any given city or region. It only makes sense to have many pastors in the city of Ephesus if they had a couple thousand believers but could only meet in groups of 20, 30, or 50 at a time. One pastor pastoring smaller groups like that would be preaching some 20 and more times in one day just to get the one message to all the congregation, of course there were multiple pastors. Our cities of modern times have a plurality of “elders” in the city. As a BJU alum I will give Greenville, SC as an example. Within a 10 mile radius of that campus there were some 52 sound churches to attend, thus Greenville has a plurality of elders to minister to the believers.
You are wrong. A single church must have a plurality of elders, not a single pastor. Also, deacons are not elders.
I want to touch one other thing here:
BROAD-BRUSHING
I don’t mean to broad-brush all IFB churches with the same brush. They are not all the same. But there are certain strictures and tendencies which seem to be common to a wide swath of fundamental Baptists. If the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it. It is very hard to talk about things without overshooting the mark sometimes. I don’t intend to blow off all IFB churches.
That being said, there are important things to discuss, there is a legalistic tendency, a moralism, and a mis-understanding of grace that is common. There are spiritual abuse centers masquerading as churches. There is an emphasis on loud preaching rather than careful Bible teaching (often). And there is a tendency to look down on others who aren’t IFB as being sub-Christian.
Furthermore, I have had literally hundreds of people talk to me or contact me thanking me for the ministry of my blog site here. Many real people have been harmed by some IFB churches, enough that I need to be saying something and reaching out to them. Some give up on Christianity altogether, and that is so disappointing. Extreme fundamentalists do not represent Christianity, they are at best a very small sub-group of it.
Anyway, you can spend some time looking at some of the articles on my site by category or topic and judge what I say for yourself. I just tried to clear up some things here.
Right…very easy to assume someone is broad-brushing. I am often at the bad end of that. When I choose to use strong statements, etc. It is easily taken as being intended for everyone, every church and every situation. Very hard to keep people on target/topic. Glad to hear you under the leadership of Bethlehem. Love John teaching…I am currently listening to about 20 different biographies he has done. I think I heard them all about 5 times each. Favorite thus far…Adoniram Judson…:)
Patrick,
Yes John Piper’s biographies are great. I am actually serving as a deacon in a church plant in St. Paul now, but we spent 5 wonderful years healing under the ministry of John Piper and Bethlehem Baptist Church.
I just want to say that I am new to this site. I am think that Bob is correct in his approach and sincere in trying to get to the root of the problem with IFBXers. I to was under Bob Gray in Longview, Texas. I was a teenager when he came and went to his college and even worked on his staff. (In TBC and LCA) There was never any real accountability. The deacons were ‘yes’ men and still are. After leaving there many years ago my parents went back and thought things had changed. I had hoped that was true and asked my dad to prove it. If things had really changed, then Bob Gray would have paid me and others for work done that was never paid for. (Nearly $10,000) When my dad began to dig closer and closer things go hot and Bob Gray attacked my dad in a meeting that my dad had asked for to ask him why he was not responding to my over 100 emails just asking what was the status on this investigation he was conducting. ( I believe it was just stalling) This pastor abused his position to attack my dad instead of being accountable for his inappropriate actions. His son was in the room and did nothing. Bob Jr. was a friend of mine but he too is just like his dad. My parents have since left and are doing much better. I did call Bob Jr. and asked him if this was right and reminded him of HIS promise to get to the bottom of the back pay. He said his dad had taken if over and I had to talk to him. The only problem was, His dad would not talk to me. My dad had even tried to schedule a visit with him when I was in town and he claimed to be too busy. ( I was there for 6 weeks) Something has to be done to hold these men accountable. Bob Jr. is now the pastor but will do nothing to correct the past sins of his father. (BTW, Bob Jr. only got the call to be pastor after his did told the deacons that that was the condition of his retirement, along with full pay. If you try to post things on other fundy websites about the truth of the false “god”, your posts are not added. I have better things to do with my time than to go around attacking, I just felt like stating my peace here to help others and inform the blind followers of men like this that TRUTH comes before LOYALTY.
Curt
Hello Curt!
I met Bob Gray Jr. once, as I grew up as a teenager at FBC. Bob spoke at one of our youth camps. I do not judge Bob Gray Jr., because I am not aware of his current condition, but at that exact moment, there was an incredibly evil spirit upon him. It moved in exclusion, judgement, condemnation, and hatred – it was not the Spirit of our Lord. For there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, there is no exclusion due to past sins, but inclusion by an open heart! As a kid, lacking a close relationship with God, not having been gifted in the discerning of spirits – I was incredibly wounded. The guy pulled out a sword, and claimed that the Spirit of God was exposing everyones sin to him, that he may expose theirs sins to the congregation. Bob was not being prophetic, he had spent most of the day previous, visiting with specific campers and extracting rumors and stories from them like a P.I. would. He then took this info, coupled with his judgement, and wounded many. Yet, by the stripes of Jeus Christ we can be truly healed – physically, emotionally, and spiritually! My prayer is for you. I can only imagine what you have been through. May Jesus Christ heal your soul and spirit by His perfect anointing – in Jesus name.
If I were to agree with many of you on this page, I would also have to make the false statement that every single Catholic church across the country is filled with child molesters, & I do not believe that is true. Or I would have to say that every Televangelist is sleeping with prostitutes as Jim Baker did, however we all know that this is not true either. When you step back & consider the amount of IFB churches in this world the # of problems is very few statistically speaking. It is unfortunate that it had to be such a widely known pastor that fell since this is often what it results in. Also the truth is if this would have been a small town GARB church in rural America none of us would have never heard a word about it, but in reality it would have grieved the Holy Spirit just as much. As far as being a deacon run church, the simple fact is a man will do what he wants to do regardless of who is watching over his shoulder, this has nothing to do with it. May remember that Peter denied the Lord 3 times just shortly after being with Him in person. I guess in reality the only good that has come out of this, is that it has given a bunch of people like you all something to write about & very little I’m sure to pray about. May you & I all remember the Apostle Paul’s warning to us all even those in deacon run churches with supposed great accountability 1Co 10:12 “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”. It could have been any of us & still could be.
I would like to make several more comments regarding my position as a IFB pastor. Within my church I do not have yes men as deacons, I have Godly men that the people vote in every year, if I decide I want somebody else then that man must be voted in by the people I cannot simply place them in. Also as far as the final authority within the church is the Word of God. Tonight while preaching I made the comment that “If I ever preach something that cannot be backed up by the Word of God then call me out on it & if that person is right I would gladly admit my error”. I am well aware that there are IFB churches that take a different unbiblical position & for this I am disappointed, but we are not all the same. We have a GARB church not too far from us that went through about 5 or 6 pastors in 25 years due to serious internal problems (One of the pastors made a ld call from the church to his home & was reprimanded), am I to think that all GARB churches are the same. No, that would be just as crazy as what most of you are doing tonight. Please understand that there are many of us out here just quietly trying to serve the Lord & make a difference in this world while we still have time.
Thanks Aaron. I wouldn’t want to say that only a church with plural elders can practice accountability. It is just harder to be a lone-ranger pastor standing above the fray and above the scrutiny of others in such a church.
Sounds like you are trying to serve the Lord faithfully and to minister the Word to your church. Please know I am not saying every IFB church is at fault and part of the problem that is behind the problem we see with Schaap. There are many faithful servants of God who don’t really know any other form of Christianity than IFB churches. Many who have conscientiously held to the positions of IFB churches. Many who love God sincerely and reach out to the lost effectively. I commend them. I just think that by isolating themselves so strongly from the rest of Christianity, over time, there has grown a tendency toward group-think and a development of practices and ideas that are harmful. This doesn’t apply to all, but there is a lot to be said for non IFB churches in many respects, and we aren’t all neo-evangelical, wishy-washy Bible deniers (although there are plenty of those). Anyway, thanks for sharing your testimony here. God bless you.
I dont think you already have the right to suggest change in the area of pastoral leadership because of what had happened to Bro.Schaap. He will bear the consequences of his own action but the Biblical set up for church leadership must still be God-Pastor- & congregation. I dont believe though that the pastor will abuse his God given authority & will become lord over God’s heritage. Pastors are incharged &is commanded to lead,feed,guide,protect,watch,warn,teach,rebuke,reprove,correct,exhort,&preach the whole counsel of God. — thus becoming an example for God’s flock. Pls. Dont try to change Biblical principles by having so called elders to rule the pastors and the church. Jer.3:15 says ” and I (God) will give you pastors ( not elders) according to My heart ( not according to your opinion)
This comment right here is the core issue. Biblical Illiteracy. You really need to do a better job of studying out pastors, elders, bishops. They are all interchangable. They are all the same person. Bishop is the office, Elder is the person that holds the office and Pastor is the duties of the elder that holds the office of bishop. “So called elders to rule the pastors”? Really? Do me a favor and go and find every usage of the word “elder” and “pastors”. This really isn’t meant to be an insult. It really demonstrates the problem. People don’t know Scripture. “Elders who rule well”??? Who is this verse talking about sir? The bible is very clear that there should be a plurality of pastors who share equality. If a church wants a “first among equals”, I think it could pass if the rest is in line. But “Executive CEO Lone-Ranger Pastors” who answer to no one but a deacon board (servant board). Since when do deacons (table waiters) hold authority over elders? Interesting. Anywho..
@ Patrick.
AMEN!
i grew up as a IFB-pk the past 36 yrs and pretty much saw and experienced everything from the good to the not so good! it was a very difficult road for me, honestly. and am quite thankful to the Lord for delivering me and allowing me to be a part of full-time service to the Lord now with a family of my own.
le’ts be in reminder again that there are good IFB men and women that truly love the Lord fall in their lifetime of service. this happens anywhere there are people involved.
i am always horribly shaken and unexplainably discouraged whenever i see men of God fall- especially those that are in high leadership. and hurt terribly for the people that are involved with the ministry.
yet, i choose to focus on God’s command and why He sent Jesus over 2000 yrs ago-
i strongly believe in galatians 6, but also believe that correct discipline and strongly supervised accountability should be carried out REGARDLESS of who that person is- especially if that person is in an influential position!!!
i have encountered as a child, teen, young adult and now as an adult too many shortfalls amongst the IFB group, yet i have also encountered and witnessed many, many victories amongst wonderful, godly, IFB folks that God has and still uses to strengthen my faith even more.
let’s keep our focus on the LORD and His purpose as to why we are here on earth still and keep praying for those leaders that God has granted around us. God is still on the throne and we must claim Romans 8:28.
praying for those at FBC in hammond that God be glorified despite what satan seeks to do. God has and will ultimately have HIS way regardless of what we humans say or do. let’s trust Him- GOD is aware.
I’m just thankful they did the right thing and reported it to the authorities. Good for them. http://wp.me/p1RlRY-4M
Let’s all remember in all this that it’s the man and not the message of a Fundamental Biblical Doctrinal statement. I, too, grew up as a pastor’s kid in the 60’s, 70’s at an IFB church. For years I had a father that was enamored with the “church growth” movement. This led to having Dr. Hyles speak in our church on a number of occasions. The last time he came (thank God) was in the late 70’s. During the entire weekend, Dr. Hyles did nothing from the pulpit but refer to my dad as a “Wimp Preacher” and to me as the “Idiot Son of the Pastor”. To which this led to the “uncomfortable” laughter of the crowd that was there. Broken hearted but thankfully this opened my dad’s eyes to much of veneer of this 3 ring circus mentality. Now 40 years hence I’m thankful much of this is being exposed. After seeing all this, and being so removed from it after all these years, I’m still thankful to God for allowing me to pastor a small 40 member IFB church. You’re more likely to see me on a weekday under a sink with a wrench, under the hood of a car, or behind the handle of a lawnmower of an elderly resident of a local neighborhood. In my estimation this is more ministry than wasting time for no return of time investment from “knocking on doors”. Because of the small nature of our ministry (2 deacons and me as pastor) we have a very open familial relationship with every member in our church which provides great accountability on a weekly basis. With all this being exposed I’m seeing a tendency to vilify IFB. Let’s be careful we don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, realizing there are hundreds of small IFB churches across the country that have an outstanding ministry with much accountability in place. So let’s remember the Fundamental Doctrinal Positions of the IFB church are not on trial here, but just the ungodly men that have brought shame to that message (and let’s remember the spotlight is on just a few and not the many, many small ministries that are still ministering as they ought).
Good thoughts, brother. I am so thankful for each and every IFB church where there is accountability in leadership and a genuine care for the flock and aim to fulfill biblical ministry.
Thank you my friend. Thanks for your blog here. While we can identify much needed correction, I’m bothered by those who seem to have a critical spirit and want to do nothing but throw barbs lumping everyone together. Satan is real, and no man/ministry/movement is immune at all times to situations of trouble.
Do we say that ministries with plurality have leadership have never, ever had any problems? Why is this model (though one that can help) always proposed as a panacea and the pastor/deacon form “always” a problem?
Well, for one…anything unbiblical is a problem and will cause problems. His wisdoms far exceeds ours. Hence why HE laid out the offices and we do not.
He actually is the office. 🙂 – Like, Jesus moved in the entire 5 fold! The 5 fold are actually dimensions of the Spirit of Christ.
No, the “doctrine” of the IFB should be on trial, as well. While I applaud (and appreciate) your sense of ministry by helping your neighbor, doctrinally is where I believe the IFB churches to which I’ve been exposed are severely lacking. Instead of expositional preaching, the sermons are topical, allowing for the pastor to choose sermons often based on what the perceieved needs of the church are, or what he perceives them to be. It allows for Scripture to be taken out of context. By way of example, to use a Deuteronomy passage as a command for women not to wear pants pants is utter nonsense. But, try to point out the CONTEXT of that passage, and the IFB folks will turn a blind eye, and choose to continue to preach that women shouldn’t wear pants despite being shown to the contrary. I grew up in a church in which my dad pastored, and while we weren’t quite as legalistic as the IFB church that I attended in my young adult years, it helped me to form the opinion that God was an ogre just waiting for me to make the wrong move so that He could punish me. A list of external dos and don’ts isn’t what makes a person grow in our walk.
While I still don’t drink, for example, I now know that drinking in moderation isn’t sin. Don’t get me wrong. If your drinking makes your brother stumble, then love is to be the determining factor. Or, if you believe that drinking is wrong for you, then you shouldn’t drink. But that’s a far cry from teaching that the Bible teaches that it’s sinful to drink.
Since those years of attending an IFB in SoCal, where Jack Hyles and John Rice were highly esteemed, and where most of the staff were HAC graduates, I appreciate that God has allowed me to sit under solid biblical teaching that underscores the greatness of God, and not a man-made set of rules. When you hear good doctrine taught, you come to appreciate (in a finite way) His death on the cross, and the doctrine of salvation, i.e., that He drew me to Himself, not based on merit, not based on choice (it is my responsibility to believe, but only after His Spirit draws me), but for the pleasure of His good will.
The thing that bugs me about the IFB folks with whom I’m still acquainted is that they’re so closed. If, for example, you gave me a book to read by Curtis Hutson, I wouldn’t feel threatened, and I’d I had the time, I might read it. But, mention listening to a sermon by Alistair Begg, or reading a book by Platt, or Chan, or Piper, forget it. If it’s not “The Sword of the Lord,” or a pastor screaming about the ills of attending movies, then the IFB crowd wants no part of it. While it may appear that I’m doing a sloppy paint job by painting with a broad brush, that has been my experience, and I encourage you to refute it.
Finally, I think the IFB is cult-like, despite what you write, Pastor G. Allow me to make an already long comment even longer. I attend a large Reformed church in the Bay Area of CA. We sing a lot of different kinds of songs on Sunday morning, and we hear expositional teaching. Our doctrinal statement excludes the gifts, BUT, we also have some folks who adhere to the “closed, but cautious” philosophy, i.e., that while the gifts have ceased, it is always a possibility that God, being God, can do what He wants, and tongues could
possibly play a role somewhere, someday. But, as a church, our doctrinal statement doesn’t includes tongues. So, do we throw out folks who personally believe that the gifts may have a role in the life of the believer? Of course not! But, if they’re to teach, or be in leadership, they agree that, for the sake of unity, they will set their own beliefs aside. That isn’t to say that they’re hypocrites, but it is to say that those peripheral things aren’t deal breakers.
So, Pastor G, I challenge you. Please, please point me to an IFB pastor who doesn’t just preach his opinion, and who carefully exegetes Scripture…and someone who uses converstional tone to teach and preach without browbeating. Would you EVER consider reading a book by MacArthur or Rick Holland, or another Reformed author! Or listen to a sermon by someone who isn’t an IFB? That would tell me a lot.
I welcome your response.
Yes, they are taught to be very closed minded. they boast about it. however, it is very dangerous to be close minded if you are wrong. I was a very close friend of Curtis Hutson’s son-in-law and he took a 700 member vibrant growing church and turned it in today an hyles-style church…runs about 200 now…sad.
Give me a church of five men who have moved into the greater works of Jesus Christ, and I will give you a revival fire that cannot be quenched. Quality over quantity every time. Take any example of the fullness of Christ. St. Patrick raised +30 from the dead, in a lake, only to tell them the good news! How about Apostle Paul, or Steven. How about John G. Lake, or countless others. Where are the modern day saints that move in the transformative nature of God? I tell you, if they do not appear within the current leadership of the American Church as a whole, then the Spirit of Christ will move around that leadership, and anoint the sheep with a higher anointing. The rocks will cry out if we do nothing; yet God is coming to pour out His Spirit upon all flesh. No more walls, no more politics, no more teachings of the Nicholaitans which hold the sheep under their control. What will the leadership do when the sheep are given more spiritual power and authority in the Kingdom of Heaven because they simply came as children, and did not reason against this power. Apostle Paul said: “I preach the power of Christ!”. How do we get the fullness of Christ? We receive it as a gift. How do we receive the fullness of Christ? Through total yeilding and submission to His Spirit, through serving, through humility, He raises His overcoming power inside of us.
Ann, my name is Justin McKinney, and I sense your frustration. I too was very frustrated at one time. A new order needs to be raised, a return to the simplicity of the heart, and of the good news. It no longer matters whether you are Jew or Greek or Roman Catholic or Independent Baptist. There are wheat n tares everywhere, and the ratios between these two change with time and people. We are Christ’s body. It is His church! We cannot judge all men based upon the group they adhere to. Yes, certain groups are more susceptible to certain issues and sins. Yet, other groups or more susceptible to other sins. EVERY TIME A NEW GROUP RISES AGAINST THE MAINSTREAM IN JUDGEMENT AND SPLITS OFF, THEY THEN GUARANTEE, IN TIME, THEY WILL BE GUILTY OF THE SAME SINS. – BY WHATEVER MEASURE YE JUDGE, YOU WILL BE JUDGED. There is only one way for the body to stop wasting it’s time, energy, and focus on internal debate – WE MUST WALK IN THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST! We must “know” one another by the Spirit, not by titles, and not by organizations. The only way a full restoration will come to the body is by submitting in love to one another – forgiving one another. The same people that Jesus rebuked, the Jewish leadership, He had to submit to, that by His submission, the spirits that held them in bondage could be broken by the anointing of Christ – the anointing that breaks every yoke!
Sorry to hear about your experiences. I wouldn’t like them either. My only comment is that those kind of IFB churches do not represent the whole. Yes, sadly those kind obviously exist, but I’ve been all over the US in IFB churches and in those churches I’ve attended I’ve never come across what you have. There are many circles within the IFB “movement” and some of those spheres are like what you experienced and some are not. One circle does not represent the whole.
Ann, I am not Pastor G, but in answer to your challenge, I am an IFB pastor that fits your challenge and I know scores of others that fit your challenge. Far too many of you in this post think that IFB means a FBC Hammond type ministry and that is just not the case for so many of us. We are not interlinked as some have tried to say. Read again what the initials are, we are independent. I answer to God and my congregation and take my office of pastor/elder/bishop as seriously as God has placed it in His sacred book. It grieves me deeply to hear of the abuses that pastors have done to their flock and we all will stand before our Holy God one day and give account. That is serious, that is sobering and that keeps me on my knees. I again, state, sin will raise its ugly head wherever it can. None of us is immune from sin, but by the grace of God there go I, as the saying so reminds us.
Sorry, Brian, but I do not agree with your assessment. Certainly, I’ve not been exposed to every IFB church in the US, but I think that the majority of them are KJV only, and that is one thing that sets them apart. Further, they use Scripture, no less, to dictate that women shouldn’t wear pants, and that there should be no “mixed bathing (a rather antiquated term).” If you don’t fall into that category, then an apology is in order. But, I daresay, I would bet my underwater house that I won’t owe you an apology.
These kinds of issues indicate cult-like tendencies, i.e., using Scripture to promote an agenda (even tithing isn’t in the NT, but that doesn’t stop teaching it as a mandate), and promoting the KJV as the “only true Word of God.” If that doesn’t sound cult-like, then I would appreciate a better definition.
Ann, I am not saying that those churches don’t exist, because they do. I am pointing out to you that there are scores, nay hundreds of other IFB churches which do what you have challenged. I am sorry that you are unwilling to believe me. You sound like the phrase, my mind is made up don’t confuse me with the facts. I was a missionary, so I spent about 4 years (in the mid 90’s) on deputation that took me to over 100 churches. Primarily in the southeast part of our country but also into the mid-west, inner-mountain west, and northwest. None, I repeat, none of those IFB churches was of a FBC Hammond style church as well as along with your other descriptors (those kinds of churches wanted nothing to do with me because I did not tow their line on the things you bring out, like KJV-only). Just because you “think” something doesn’t make it so. As I say, I know scores of pastors/churches which fulfill your challenge and have nothing of the errors you have ascribed to IFBdom as a whole. It is foolish to broad-brush an “independent” movement such as you have tried to do. Whether you believe me or not, is of course your choice but I know the truthfulness of what I have expressed.
Brian,
Touché. I am cool with what you say. Fine. I get that not ALL IFB churches are the way that I described, but the ones to which I’ve been exposed are. “Just because you ‘think’ something doesn’t make it so (your words)” is hyperbolic, BTW.
I will add (by way of conclusion) that when ANY church teaches the importance of externals as a tenet of faith, it sets a tone for a dangerous works-based faith. And, when ANY church takes a passage from Scripture out of context, that also is dangerous. Rather than “preaching” sermons about the sin of going to movies, drinking, dancing (I don’t believe those are sin, BTW), etc., preach the whole counsel of God, in context, expositionally. Teach good, sound doctrine, and talk about the greatness of God, so that, when that is internalized, the folks in the pews can spot bad doctrine when they hear it. Stop wasting time on the externals, because when the internal is changed, the externals will change, as well. It’s in an inside–out kind of change.
Be free in His grace.
Ann here are your words, “Sorry, Brian, but I do not agree with your assessment. Certainly, I’ve not been exposed to every IFB church in the US, but I think that the majority of them are KJV only,” and then –Just because you ‘think’ something doesn’t make it so (your words)” is hyperbolic, BTW.” And you say my words are hyperbolic. You made the first statement and qualified it with no quantitative information other than “I think.” To use your line of reasoning concerning IFB churches then I would come to the conclusion that there are no IFB churches which major on the minors, ride hobbyhorses, poorly exegete the Scriptures, etc, etc., because I have never been in one of those type churches. That is a myopic way of seeing the world around us.
As far as passing on information, would it really win you over to the idea that there many within IFBdom who are not as you have run into? Seems rather doubtful with all that you have said in your comments in this thread. So with that I bid you adieu. ” Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.” II Cor. 13:11 (Sorry if the KJV bothers you, I happen to prefer to use that version without the hyperbole of the KJV-only crowd).
Brian,
First of all, read for comprehension. You took what I said initially and built a case for my myopic view (your words). HOWEVER, after you stated that not all churches are not like the ones to which I’ve been exposed, I wrote:
“Touché. I am cool with what you say. Fine. I get that not ALL IFB churches are the way that I described, but the ones to which I’ve been exposed are.”
That statement supercedes my initial one, i.e., the one that stated “I think.”
This is absolute garbage, and my ire is up. I resent the sarcastic crack –“Sorry if the KJV bothers you, I happen to prefer to use that version without the hyperbole of the KJV-only crowd).” I never said the KJV “bothers” me. I merely said that the KJV-only thinking is nonsense.
In advance, I apologize for this note, but I am pretty ticked off, and I would have preferred to stay on point. I don’t know who you are, but you stated that you’re a pastor. Frankly, your tone is pretty off putting. You’re held to a higher standard.
Enough said.
Sorry to the writer of this blog if my words are offensive. Frankly, I have had a bellyful of the Jack Hyles/IFB teaching, and it’s hard to maintain my emotions at this point.
I’m out.
Ann, it’s your turn to chill before you blow a gasket.
And just what is my “tone”, Ann? I have tried to converse with you without lowering myself to ad hominem (which I don’t do, period). I have not belittled you but I have brought up things in your statements that needed attention, as far as I was concerned.
I would reiterate your words, “read for comprehension.” I brought up your words again in response to your “hyperbolic” reference of my statement.
As far as my using the KJV, it is not a sarcastic attempt nor am I saying that the KJV does “bother” you. Again, read what I said, “Sorry if…” As I noted, I prefer the KJV. Many who swing the pendulum to the other extreme from KJV-onlyism try to lump me with the KJV-only crowd, so not knowing where you are in this spectrum, I placed my disclaimer.
Yes, indeed, let’s get back on point. Bob’s point being that in order to stop such sin within IFBdom we need to go to plural elder rule with accountability. Right. There was some level of accountability at FBC Hammond, that is why Schaap is not pastor there currently. This kind of sin is not endemic to IFBdom only, just google Southern Baptist Convention sex scandal or Presbyterian sex scandal or Methodist sex scandal and you will find this transcends denominational lines, this transcends theological lines, this transcends ecclesiological lines. And the reason for this transcedence? Because sin is a human universal problem. Until we die or are given our new bodies in the rapture we are all capable of sin, whether we are saved or lost. Only a walk with God in the fear (reverential awe and yes, fear) of God, in obedience to His Word will stem but not stop sin in the life of a believer.
Brian / Ann,
I should have stepped in sooner to moderate, but please – no more personal back and forth posts between you two. This is detracting from the comment thread and from the primary point of my post.
Thanks,
Bob Hayton
Fundamentally Reformed
What would having a counsel of elders do that is different in this situation from what happened with the deacons? This church is huge and I’m sure has many eyes around to deter this behavior. To go this far, the guy would have to be sneaking around, and therefore an elder is not going to notice it any better than anyone else.
This guy sinned because he didn’t distance himself from temptation. My pastor’s policy is not to be alone with a woman, even for counseling, just in case. His wife goes with him every time. If he is seen alone with a woman, even for a seemingly innocent occasion, it automatically should/would raise a red flag. And he’s the one that told us to hold him to that standard.
Also, this incident has no bearing on the IFB ‘movement’ whatsoever. This could have been any kind of church and the story would be no different. Schaap does not answer to anyone else in an IFB church. He answers to his congregation, and they seem to have done the correct thing. It just seems to me from the article and comments that people are wanting to use this as an example of how the system is flawed when it is actually an example of how it worked. Schaap is the transgressor here, not the church or “the movement.”
Dr. Jack Schaap is an amazing leader, Pastor, husband, father, son, Man of God!, grandfather & human being!! Anything these days can be photo shopped & my husband & I believe these “allegations” to be incorrect. Amid any allegations like this they would need to do what they did. I am sure the picture is Photoshopped & any allegations will be proven false! We believe in the Pastor Jack Schaap!!!!
He appears to be an amazing adulterer and child sex abuser too – rather two-faced, don’t you think? He can’t be both an abuser of children and a godly man at the same time.
@Michelle: No, the facts say that he is not. He was fired for a reason, by a board of deacons that evidently would not normally be of a mind to fire him.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/02/jack-schaap-confesses-to-_n_1732732.html?utm_hp_ref=chicago
Michelle,
I hope you are right, but I just want to warn you about putting your faith in any man. Dr. Schaap could be all of the things you said and yet still fall into sin. We live in a world full of temptation. I’m afraid for people that trust their pastors so much that when they fail they lose faith in God altogether. Even great men will let you down. Put your faith in Christ alone.
Again, though, I sincerely hope that you are right.
Michelle,
Bless you, my dear. Our family defended Dave Hyles from all his allegations too and we KNEW they were all conjured up by shameful, slutty girls…until my sister became one of his victims. Please don’t “believe in” any man. That road always leads to disappointment and heartache.
I’m sure that Christians would abandon IBF churches if your average SBC or elder controlled church had the Spirit of God in their mist. The biblical truth is that God chooses men to lead sheep and the devil, not to mention the flesh, works against these churches and these chosen men. I’d rather sit under a David, knowing his sin with Bathsheba, than sit under the water down preaching and politically correct pulpits of the average church in this country. God said in Revelations that He will spue out the lukewarm. Not that I condone the Pastors actions but think its en-lighting to see the remarks by others in comparison with Gods own examples. David a man after God’s own heart in comparison with most churches and preachers that are lukewarm and waiting to be spued out. I believe there will be alot of fallen born again Christians in Heaven, not to sure about Monday morning quarterbacks that are sitting on the couch.
Dismissed for a “sin”?! Really?!?! I can’t help but think that there are many “sins” that are NOT illegal. This guy is eye-brow high in some deep legal crap. There should be some acknowledgement of ongoing investigation and legal issues – I’m embarrassed as a Christian to see this pastor’s behavior glossed over.
I am an independent baptist pastor who preaches expositorily through the bible verse by verse. We do exist we just get very little attentiionbythemovementas a whole. I am accountable to my deacons as well as to the men of our church. I listen to an read j MacArthur regularly as well as piper and any one else I think will give me further insight into the word.
I must say that changing church structure is not the ultimate solution. The solution is preachers being taught that legalism breeds sin and that keeping rules and implementing spiritual disciplines does not insure holiness. It is getting back to the word and learning to serve God because you love Him and not serve out of guilt and fear. Ibf is mostly about works sanctification, grace is ignored once saved. I thank God for my dad who was also my pastor who keep us out of the cult sects of if and stood alone most of his ministry. He raised 6 kids who still love Christ and serve Him with joy.
I have spoken out about jack holes and HHS affair, dav and his perversion among other lesser known if perverts. Have been amazed at how many ignored me, turned their back on me, even defended the indefensible. Not all if pastors ae in the boat of whacked out fib preaches. Aware a few of us who are truly independent of the group think that is pressured in the IBM movement. Pray pastors eyes will be opened and put themselves under the accountability of their church structure and committ to expository preaching and teach their people to Love Christ with all their heart soul and mind.
Thanks for the excellent article
Jerry Favor, Then why be a part of a movement that teaches KJV only (as the “only true Word of God,” and that’s pretty much verbatim as it was described to me by someone who attends an IBF church), their stance on all things “wordly,” etc.? The point is that yes, legalism is horrid, and it is pervasive in that movement. If you know all that, why hang w/it?
Oh, and I get your comment about the iPad. We’ve had one for several months, and if it wasn’t for hte convenience of it, I wouldn’t bother to even use it.
Ann, will you get it out of your head that the IFB equals KJV-onlyism. IT DOESN’T!!! I am 50 years old and have been saved for 38 years. I was saved, grew up in IFB churches and now minister in one. In all those years I have NEVER been a part of KJV-onlyism, etc. Just because you have been in some and know people in others doesn’t make that the whole universe of IFBdom. Please open your eyes and mind, there are hundreds if not thousands who have not bent the knee to those errors you profess that we believe. IFB is not a denomination like the OPC or PCUSA or United Methodist, or even a convention like the SBC. Since there is nothing “to join” in order “to become” an IFB, there can be nothing really leave then. Whoever told you that KJV-only equals IFB is wrong, period, end of story.
Brian,
You are going to have to chill before you bust a gasket.
Of course, there is something “to leave.” IFB churches may be independent, but they often get together to have “revivals” and the like, so if a person doesn’t agree w/the tenets of an IFB church, they can “leave” it.
Give me a couple of IFB churches where externals aren’t huge in their statements regarding “separation.” I would love to take a look @ their web sites.
I am very happy to hear that you don’t adhere to the nonsense of the KJV-only dogma. What version DO you use, BTW? I understand that this thread may be getting far afield, and I don’t wish to hijack this gentleman’s blog post, but the point is this: When pastors begin to preach and teach (and those words are used loosely in this context) an agenda rather than the greatness and holiness of God, a toxic stench may be emitted. Do I want a pastor who stands @ the pulpit taking the Word out of context, talking about giving because it may have been a slow month, or about movies or bad books as a complete sermon? Or, would I rather hear the Bible taught in context, in order, and learn to love God and be in awe of His greatness because of it?
You decide.
Oh, I am not even close to blowing a gasket, Ann. You speak of wanting to hear the whole counsel of God, if this is to be done, then there will be sermons about the topics you have mentioned. The Bible does teach (i.e. gives us doctrine) us about our giving (II Cor. 8 & 9, for instance, which when considered would tend to indicate that tithing, that is 10% is really just the beginning of our giving), our actions both internal and external, etc. I would agree that our pastors should never major on the minors, ride hobbyhorses, etc., etc. I also agree that many have done a poor job at addressing the teachings of the Bible on a host of topics. But again, there are those of us who do seek to properly open the Word of God and feed our flocks. And with that said, God’s grace nevers leads us to pick and choose what we want from the Scriptures.
Forgive my typing. Just getting used to typing on my new iPad!
The evidence against Mr. Schaap does not indicate that he sinned. It indicates that he ABUSED this young woman. He ABUSED the power of his position. It was not an affair; it was ABUSE. There is no question on this matter. If he had a sexual relationship with this young woman, it was abuse. Even if she does not wish to press charges, he should be charged to the fullest extent of the law. I am so sorry that this young woman is going through this.
Hmmm…isn’t abuse of any kind sin? I don’t know what happened, but in my state it would be statutory rape if he had sex with someone that was under the age of 18. From the “sermons (and that’s being generous, because all the guy does is lecture and berate and scream)” that I’ve heard online, the guy sounds like a perv, from where I sit.
I was reading these posts but got lost just as people started arguing about translations and the role of deacons, etc. Let’s stick with the issues. This man sinned and he has no business being in the pulpit. I am the product of a Hyles-based upbringing, and let me tell you, that authoritarian, misogynistic belief system has caused more heartache, divorces, and rebellion than anything else I know. I was not allowed to wear pants (even snowpants!), hair over the ears in men or boys was not tolerated, and heaven forbid you go to a movie. It was all externalism. Did it make us more spiritual? Absolutely not. It caused bitterness, strife, and rebellion. I have no respect for anyone who twists scripture and/or conveniently leaves some parts of it out to further an agenda. Yes, wives are to be in submission to their husbands (and boy did I hear amens to that on the Hyles cassette tapes we used to listen to), but I never heard anything about husbands loving their wives as Christ loved the church. And you wonder why there have been so many divorces and scandals?? Who would want to stay with a man who has the attitude of an extremist Muslim and treats women like their servants? It’s easy for some people to wax sanctimonious and say we shouldn’t gloat or whatever, but may I remind you that he who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall. Scripture has been fulfilled time and again with people like this. What do you say to that?
Kindly, If I may say so…you said to stick to the issue and now you are talking about wives sumission and Muslims? No, the issue isn’t just that this man sinned. The issue is that there is a far deeper issue within this movement (which is the topic “The fall of Jack Schaap and the Future of the IFB”). It’s not arguing. It’s establishing what Truth is and how it is not being followed. Hence why it is brought up. Leadership is the issue. The movement touts a very unbiblical leadership, which often leads to great falls and false worship of a man. I spent 17 years in it and served in many roles, even as pastor. So, I am not just spouting things off for the sake of arguing. This is the main issue…is the glory of God the main within this movement? No? However, we know that the chief end of man is the glory of God and to enjoy Him forever (WMC), But this isn’t what is happening in this movement. They teach that the main thing is soul winning. Anywho…the main thing is the future of this movement. Just teach a false gospel, which is even worse than the false polity. If these two things are changed in this movement, I believe there is hope. They are in dire need of some type of a reformation.
Yes, so that the body can split and split on and on, forever and ever amen?? No!! There is only one body. Whoever is under the literal command of Jesus Christ through the blessed communion of prayer, by His Spirit living and moving inside of us. In the flesh, we can id our differences to the end of days! In the Spirit, we are all one. We are the family of God! God is not a Reformed Fundamentalist. Nor is God a Jew, or Roman Catholic or Evangelical. There are no divisions in His Spirit. All emphasis should be placed upon moving in His Spirit, knowing those who labor amongst us by His Spirit, knowing the movements of our blessed Heavenly Father’s heart by His Spirit. By His Spirit we can “know” all truth. By His Spirit we can be comforted in anything. By His Spirit we can be taught all things. Yes, I agree with you, we must lift up the glory of the Lord, but what happens when we surrender and yield more, He pours His glory into us that His light may shine through us, that we might shine as the stars and more accurately represent just who God truly is. God needs us to be more of Him, that He, through us, can reap this last harvest.
Jessica,
Jessica,
All of what you mentioned, e.g., Bible translation, hair length, IS part of the movement, and I don’t think that they can be parsed or separated from what happened. Certainly, Schaap sinned, and it’s horrid, but the reason that people like Michelle (see her delusional comment above) will go to the mat for these guys is because they’re brainwashed. Many years ago, I attended an IFB church as I noted in my first comment. The pastor routinely took Scripture out of context for his own gain, and his agenda. It is absolutely disgusting, if not downright heresy.
I am currently listening to the “message” from last night’s meeting @ FBC. What drivel! Gibbs is actually delivering a “sermon” as if nothing has happened, and the people are laughing and tittering at what he says. I want to get to the end of it, but I can’t fast forward it, so am stuck listening to the guy blather. It’s amazing that the tone isn’t somber and grief-stricken. Maybe the people are just so used to the idea of adultery, and coverups that they’re immune to those feelings. It’s stunning. I would expect that the Schaap issue would be first on the agenda, but it’s not. There was singing, prayer requests, and now a message. It’s just plain bizarre, not to mention, sickening.
Very sad. I left an IFB church I attend been at for 12 years because the “new” pastor was stirring it to a Hyles-Style baptist church. It went from 800 to 200-300. They will never know the lives they hurt. However, for some…God used it to pull them out and illuminate things to them.
Many of the posts here in this thread are enough to make me vomit.
Don’t know which is worse, the stuipid of the Hyles/Schaap arrogance & control OR the ascinine comments by quite a few people in this thread.
For every “bad” IFB church there are many, many more that are not at all like what many are crying about here.
For every problem or scandal within the IFB (which way too many are so gleefully cheery about) you will find an equally problematic issue or scandal with the evangelical side.
Many here are just like the things about the IFB they hate: spewing condeming gossip, slander, and judgment.
Bravo y’all! Bravo!
Sorry kido, the IFB is a cult, and your poorly spelled comment only further proves it.
I spoke with a high level HAC staff member that I very, very close with through family. He said most of the staff and many members are relieved and have been wanting to get rid of this pervert for several years. He said the weird preaching, the sex talk, the cussing, being hated across the nation and other whacked out things JS did (and grief he caused) have been talked about among all of them in private for years. He said everyone was afraid to take a stand and this was the one thing they new they had him on to fire him. He said it was a classic “Give him enough rope and he will hang himself” scenario. He said the staff members are sighing with great relief and many have thanked God they finally had something they could pull the trigger on JS the nutcase. He even said staff members were feeling demonically oppressed because of Jack and that HAC has been in a time of evil darkness since he took over the church. I asked him why they waited and he said they were all afraid for their jobs, the loyalty card being played and that JS was such a grudge holding vindictive man that they knew he would crush them. He claims this was a feeling of most of the HAC and many of the church staff (except for Bob Marshmallow) from top to bottom.
Wisdom Hunter (a novel published in 1991, and still on the market today) illustrates the destructiveness of dictatorial and authoritarian pastors. The novel has been praised by many as a “classic”. It was written by a TTU graduate who grew up in the IFB camp. The book, upon its release, was so controversial that it was reportedly banned at many IFB churches, and even at BJU. Many the author had something to say that was worth listening to.
While you are right to decry the single pastor rule of the church, it is a mistake to think that a plurality of elders is the cure. In church after church that prides themselves in having a “plurality” of elders, what you really find is a teaching elder that rules the roost.
First Baptist in Hammond has hundreds of deacons and like many IFB churches the deacons serve as the church board. They do have control and authority, after all they DID fire Jack Schaap.
The root of the problem in the IFB and in much of Evangelicalism lies in their theology, particularly the depravity of man and the notion that people are weak, prone to sin without Jesus. At the end of the day, the Bible is the problem.
Actually, it is the denial of Man’s depravity that is the problem. That is why atheists like yourself have killed more people in the twentieth century alone that anyone else in all of history (USSR, Eastern Europe, China, North Korea, Cambodia, Ethiopia, abortion, etc.)
The Vertical Church by James MacDonald,…
Look it up, listen to it, read it, get it!
The problem isn’t which translation is best, if there’s deacons or elders, which church is run better, or attended more, or has the best Sunday School or bus program. If God isn’t present at your church, you shouldn’t be either.
I want to know why Eddie Galyean isn’t on any of these blogs, posts, or lists of ifb sex offenders!? He is a HAC graduate, and was a assistant pastor, bus leader, school principal, and youth pastor at three rivers baptist church in Fort Wayne, IN from 1995-2000. This church was Pastored by another HAC graduated Doug Jackson. “Brother Eddie’s ” victims are many and varied, kids on his bus route (boys and girls) teen girls at the school and church (including jackson’s oldest daughter Teresa, by his first wife, whom he fathered a child with, and was subsequently put up for adoption. – galyean also traded unlimited phone privileges that she used to could call her biological mother, whom she was not allowed to contact, for sexual favors) and his own daughter Heidi. Doesn’t anyone know about all of this!?!