Once Saved, Always Saved?!?!

~ Bob Hayton

Eternal Security, the get-out-of-jail-free card evangelicals carry enabling them to party and live it up with the 100% assurance that they will not face the wrath of God!NOTE: For an updated copy of this post, see the “Mining the Archives” post here.

Today’s popular evangelical maxim “once saved, always saved” while based in the Biblical truth of justification by faith alone has morphed into a virtual get-out-of-jail-free card for far too many. The church’s duty to make disciples of all nations has been downgraded to an optional extra. The gospel call to repent and believe has become a plea for sinners to assent to the facts of the gospel, pray a prayer, and join the cool Christian club called churchianity. Gone are the stern warnings to “watch and pray” and “endure to the end”. Gone are the bold exhortations to “make your calling and election sure” and “be diligent to be found in [Christ] without spot or blemish”. In their place are the warm assurances “since you confessed you are saved” and “since eternal life is a free gift, God cannot take it back”, and the friendly reminders “everybody makes mistakes” and “don’t sweat: remember, we’re under grace!” The old doctrine that saints must diligently make a personal effort to persevere in faith has been overshadowed by the new doctrine that saints can live just like anyone else in the world and as long as they once assented to gospel truths they are most certainly bound for heaven.

I wish I was merely exaggerating the situation. But when a nationally well known evangelical leader like Charles Stanley seriously believes and teaches that people who actually stop believing in Christ and walk out on God are still eternally secure, I can hardly be accused of overstating my case. In the article linked to above he claims, “The Bible clearly teaches that God’s love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand.” He goes on to only deal with Eph. 2:4-9 and 1 Cor. 1:21, while adding in a good portion of reasoning and illustrations. In his book Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure? he makes the startling claim that salvation can be compared to receiving a tattoo. Even if moments later, you regret receiving the tattoo, it cannot change the fact that you have it! (pg. 80)

The Grace Evangelical Society exists to perpetuate such ideas. In other specters of evangelicalism, easy believism is represented by a 1-2-3-repeat-after-me approach to evangelism. A very large segment of independent fundamental Baptists (represented by literally thousands of churches and tens [if not hundreds] of thousands of members) emphasizes this approach to such excess that staggeringly huge numbers of salvations and baptisms are reported each year–which if really true, would make the Great Awakening look like a picnic. People are converted in five minutes or less–even through a rolled-down window during the duration of a stop light! One church has boasted of a milliion souls saved in the past 25 years, and yet less than 500 attend on any given Sunday.

Today no view seems criticized as much as Lordship Salvation or the Calvinistic doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. These views are very similar, if not synonomous and both share a strong critique. Charges of “works-salvation” or “perfectionism” are thrown mercilessly at these misunderstood views.

So how did we come to such a time and situation as this? It seems that in a mix of zeal and evangelistic fervor, popular Christianity began to move away from its confessional roots in the late 1800s. American individualism probably worsened the situation, as Sola Scriptura became the license for anyone and everyone to disregard centuries of theological formulations and church teaching and come up with a myriad of homespun theories. The lasting impact of Charles G. Finney, who rejected substitutionary atonement among other orthodox doctrines, also contributed to what became popular American revivalism. Today, people have hardly heard of many of the great Reformation confessions like the Westminster Confession or the Synod of Dort, and yet they are quick to find a proof text for a host of contradictory Biblical teachings.

Yet a misunderstanding of perseverance is not limited to Arminians and non-Calvinists today, either. Doug Wilson says it well in a recent post on Heb. 3:7-19:

Apostasy is a real sin, committed by real people. This is something that Arminians get, and that most Calvinists do not get. None of the elect can every [sic] be taken out of God’s electing and sovereign decree. This is something that Calvinists get, and that Arminians do not get. Arminians can read Romans 8 through 11 and not see the absolute sovereignty of God, which is something that never ceases to astonish me. But lest we Calvinists get on a high horse, Arminians can read though Hebrews and can see real apostasy there. There are few things more exegetically embarrassing than to hear a Calvinist talk about how the warnings are hypothetical, like “keep off the grass” signs in the middle of the Sahara. There are many things that can be said to this, but the most compelling of them is that the warnings invariably deny that they are anything like hypothetical….The sin warned against here is that of evil unbelief, pure and simple. Not only is it unbelief, it is unbelief resulting in apostasy — departure from the living God, falling away from the living God. The sin is spoken of in the sternest possible way — rebellion, hardened hearts, evil heart of unbelief, and a departure from God…..This book [Hebrews] is about the sin of apostasy. Can a Christian fall away? Yes. Can someone who is truly regenerate, elect of God, an eternal Christian, fall away? No, clearly not.

Before I go on to defend the Biblical (I believe) doctrine of perseverance, let me provide here a brief excerpt from John Piper’s book The Purifying Power of Living by Faith in Future Grace


A few years ago I spoke to a high school student body on how to fight lust. One of my points was called, “Ponder the eternal danger of lust.” I quoted the words of Jesus–that it’s better to go to heaven with one eye than to hell with two–and said to the students that their eternal destiny was at stake in what they did with their eyes and with the thoughts of their imagination….After my message…one of the students…asked, “Are you saying then that a person can lose his salvation?”…This is exactly the same response I got a few years ago when I confronted a man about the adultery he was living in….I pled with him to return to his wife. Then I said, “You know, Jesus says that if you don’t fight this sin with the kind of seriousness that is willing to gouge out your own eye, you will go to hell”….As a professing Christian he looked at me in utter disbelief, as though he had never heard anything like this in his life, and said, “You mean you think a person can lose his salvation?”…So I have learned again and again from firsthand experience that there are many professing Christians who have a view of salvation that disconnects it from real life, and that nullifies the threats of the Bible, and puts the sinning person who claims to be a Christian beyond the reach of biblical warnings. I believe this view of the Christian life is comforting thousands who are on the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13)….The main concern of this book is to show that the battle against sin is a battle against unbelief. Or: the fight for purity is a fight for faith in future grace. The great error that I am trying to explode is the error that says, “Faith in God is one thing and the fight for holiness is another thing….The battle for obedience is optional because only faith is necessary for final salvation.” (pg. 330-331 and 333)

Belief in perseverance does not negate the great truth that faith alone justifies and secures our eternal salvation. Rather it affirms with Martin Luther, “We are saved by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone.” Our works prove the sincerity of our faith, and are in this sense necessary. This is why so many passages teach that God will actually judge all mankind by their works. Without exception, Rom. 2:6-11 states: “He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immorality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.” The reason this does not teach works salvation is that when we come to God in faith (as a result of his work of regeneration in our hearts–John 1:13 and 1 Jn. 5:1, and his gifts of faith–Acts 3:16, 15:9, 18:27, 1 Pet. 1:21, Phil. 1:29, Eph. 1:19-20, 2 Pet. 1:1 and repentance–Acts 5:31, 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25) he begins a good work in us (Phil. 1:6) and will be the One to complete it. He will produce good works in us as a testimony of the genuineness of our faith–Eph. 2:10, Phil. 2:13, 1 Cor. 15:10, 1 Thess. 5:23-24, Jude 24, Tit. 2:14.

In other words, true regeneration produces true fruit. This is Jesus’ teaching in Matt. 7:18-19 “A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” In the parable of the sower, the only soil which produced fruit was the good soil. Even thought the rocky soil produced plants which looked healthier than the fruitful plants, they bore no fruit and withered away. Jesus said this represents those “who receive [the word] with joy…but…have no root: they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.” The clear teaching of the parable is that transient faith does not save. Only the faith that bears fruit saves.

In understanding perseverance, it is important to recognize the difference between justification and glorification. Justification is the legal pronouncement of “not guilty” which happens immediately upon our faith and is based on Christ’s substitutionary atonement. This pronouncement is a voice from heaven, so to speak, concerning our hearts. The testimony from earth (our lifestyle) does not unfalteringly reflect this. Sanctification is a slow and gradual process of the out-working of our faith and the living out of our justification. Glorification is the point when we are gloriously tranformed into Christ’s image immediately after our death. At this point salvation is final. Up until then, since we cannot enter heaven’s throneroom and hear the irreversible verdict of “not guilty” applied to us, we must trust in sanctification to prove the genuineness of our faith. The term “salvation” is most often used in Scripture to refer to our glorification and only sparingly used to refer to justification. So when we see the English words “whoever believes will be saved” it usually is teaching that whoever believes will one day ultimately be saved/glorified. The Greek tense used for “believe” most often (99% or more of the time) in such statements is the present tense which directly conveys a continual action. Literally, it is often stated, “the believing one will be saved”. If we walk away from faith and cease believing we prove to not be a “believing one”.

Perseverance is required of believers. It is our duty. But the flip side of this is the teaching that God will preserve His elect (John 10:26-30, 1 Pet. 1:5, etc.). So all of the elect–all the truly regenerate among professing believers–will persevere and it will be by God’s grace. Most reading this post already understand that God will preserve the elect, so I will not labor to prove that assertion. But what follows will conclude this post by providing a defense of my assertion that the Bible requires us (professing believers) to persevere.

The Bible speaks of our need to “examine” ourselves (2 Cor. 13:5) and to diligently “make our calling and election sure” (2 Pet. 1:10). We cannot assume that since we believed in the past or made some profession of faith, we are absolutely and inviolably secure eternally. We must make room for the Scriptural potential that our faith could be insincere or not genuine. Luke 8:13 again, speaks of those who “believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away”. Even Paul leaves it open that he might even still yet become a “castaway” (same Greek word for apostate) in 1 Cor. 9:27.

Heb. 3:12-14 (along with other warning passages in Hebrews) is emphatically clear that we might ultimately fall away, and so thus we need to daily exhort one another to continue in belief. Paul calls this the “good fight of faith” in 1 Tim. 6:12 and exhorts Timothy to “take hold of the eternal life” (6:12) and to “hold faith” (1:19), because some had already “made shipwreck of their faith” (1:20), and some have “abandoned their former faith” (5:12), and others have “swerved from the faith” (6:21). This is why he exhorts Timothy to “Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.” (4:16) This is why so often Paul and other Scriptural authors do not boldly assure their readers of their personal sharing in Christ, rather they hold out before them their duty to persevere. See all the conditional statements in the following verses: Col. 1:23–“if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast,…”; 1 Cor. 15:2–“by which [the gospel] you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain”; Heb. 3:6–“and we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope”; Heb. 3:14–“we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end”; John 8:31–“if you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples”; Mark 13:13–“the one who endures to the end will be saved”; 2 Tim. 2:12–“if we endure, we will also reign with him”; Rom. 8:13–“if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live”; Gal. 6:9–“in due season we will reap [eternal life (see 6:8)], if we do not give up”; Heb. 12:14–“holiness without which no one will see the Lord”; James 2:26 (with 14)–“faith apart from works is dead” and “can that faith save him?”

Scripture never gives us assurance of salvation based on our profession of faith (in a past time and place), rather it declares the objective reality of Christ’s work and the subjective reality of the Spirit’s work in our lives as the grounds for assurance. (And the stress in 1 John is on our subjective experience of characteristic obedience.) 1 John 2:3 states ” And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.” 1 John 2:19 also gives us the key to understanding this truth. It helps us to interpret what happened when we see someone who seemed to have genuine faith fall away. It declares, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they weent out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” In other words, we should not conclude like some Arminians that all professing believers who fall away have in fact lost their salvation. Rather we should conclude that they were only professing but not possessing faith. Paul teaches this same truth when he declares belief could be in vain (1 Cor. 15:2) or could be only temporary (see 1 Thess. 3:5). Jesus also clearly taught both the reality of professors being proven to not possess faith in the scary passage of Matt. 7:21-23, and the need to persevere in Luke 21:34-36 among other places.

To sum up the teaching of perseverance, let us quote 2 passages. 2 Thess. 2:13b “God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.” Heb. 6:12b “be…imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.” Both of these passages teach that ultimate, final salvation (inheriting the promises) come to those who both believe and persevere (are sanctified/have patience).

But should this teaching result in our condemning large segments of evangelicalism and condemning many we know? Are we to judge them as not being true possessors since we may doubt their perseverance? No! Emphatically, no! Remember, justification is a heavenly sentence. We do not know, here on earth, what that sentence is. We can judge based on their fruits, but we also must be aware of the motes and beams in our own eyes. We should judge ourselves first and others much later. We can have confidence and hope in our sovereign God that there are evidences of grace in all who profess salvation. But then again, we know Biblically that this is most likely not the case. So rather than condemn one another, we should seek to edify one another and encourage them to press on, and to continue in belief (Heb. 3:2-14 and Gal. 6:1-9).

Before I close, we must revisit that popular maxim, “once saved, always saved.” If “saved” is viewed as glorification, I do not disagree at all with that statement. Nor would I if “saved” is viewed as justification. But once again, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the proof of justification is in your works (James 2). So even with the truth of once justified, always justified in view, we must never assume we have been justified if we have no good works to point to as Spirit-wrought proof.

In conclusion, brothers and sisters, I say with the apostle John “Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.” (2 John 1:8) And remember that although Jude warns us to “Keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life” (v. 21) he also assures us “Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy…” (v. 24). So do not lose heart. Trust in God’s great promises, and fight the good fight of faith. Above all, do not presume that you have arrived and are outside the bounds of Scripture’s warnings. Rather, “be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.” (2 Pet. 1:10)

For a more succinct treatment of this topic, I refer you to an earlier post where I reproduce an outline by my brother Dave on Heb. 3:2-14. Also, for a Biblical look at how important mutual edification of believers is, see my post on 1 Thessalonians. And for more resources concerning this topic, check out some articles and sermons by John Piper listed here on the issue of future grace, or just read his book referenced above. [The last link above was added 2/13/06.]

For further thoughts on this topic check out a more recent post here.

picture was borrowed from here.

68 thoughts on “Once Saved, Always Saved?!?!”

  1. From the Charles Stanley article:

    “When I was twelve, I prayed a prayer similar to the one I’ve included here. If you are not sure you are saved, why not make sure now? If you recognize your need for forgiveness and you believe Christ’s death made your forgiveness possible, you are ready. Pray,

    “God, I know I am a sinner.
    I know my sin has earned for me eternal separation from You.
    I believe Christ died in my place when He died at Calvary.
    I accept His death as the full payment for my sin.
    I accept Him as my Savior.
    Thank You for saving me.
    In Jesus’ name I pray.
    Amen.”

    By God’s great mercy, and in the light of the NT, this sounds like a joke to me. But do you know how many times through my childhood and teenage years I prayed something like that — always trying to make doubly sure I was saved? After launching a cheap prayer, nothing would change and my conscience would continue to sear.

    Well said Bob. Thanks.

    Reply

  2. Great post! Food for thought!

    Regarding this comment by Doug Wilson:

    “Can a Christian fall away? Yes. Can someone who is truly regenerate, elect of God, an eternal Christian, fall away? No, clearly not.”

    When he says “Christian” does he mean someone who is that in name only? That is the only way I can see it, unless he means there can be others besides the elect that can become Chritians, and these individuals can lose their salvation… but surely he doesnt mean that… does he?

    Reply

  3. DJ Cimino,

    I am almost totally sure he is using “Christian” in the sense of “professing Christian” or “professing believer”. The people in Matt. 7:21-23 and Luke 13:25-28 sure would have called themselves Christians (the Mormons and Catholics do, too, you know).

    Reply

  4. I should clarify my original post — the “why not make sure” part of Stanley’s quote is the part that sounds like a joke. I tried to “make sure” many times myself, only feeling like maybe I should “make sure” again tomorrow.

    The prayer itself is beautiful, and many have certainly begun their walk with a prayer like this coming from the depths of a repentant heart.

    Reply

  5. Matt C,

    Check out this post regarding the so-called Sinner’s Prayer. Assurance based on merely having prayed the prayer is certainly not Scriptural. This is not to say that some believer’s prayed a similar prayer in their initial conversion experience.

    Reply

  6. Hey great post about the topic. I like the Piper quotation from LPFG. It is so true that Christians use eternal security to say..”Even though I’m sinning, there is no way I can lose my salvation.” If you tell them otherwise they are shocked (not that they can lose but that they never possessed originally)! Thanks for the thought provoking post.
    M.Sims

    Reply

  7. With the amount of deception in this world I encourage people to throw away everything they’ve ever heard about God from another man, and start from scratch in the Bible. They need to meet Jesus themselves. Who ever came up with Calvinism or any other manmade niche of belief in Jesus? Jesus isn’t enough for most people, they need Jesus AND Calvin or Jesus AND Spurgeon, or Jesus AND the purpose driven life. How about Jesus period? The Lord said He Himself would teach us, isn’t that enough? Brother D

    Reply

  8. DBULL,

    Was there not enough Bible for you? The Spirit is sufficient to teach us, but he guides believers (plural) into all truth. The church receives and defends the truth (1 Tim. 3:15). God gave to the church the gifts of apostles, pastor/teachers, etc. to help us grow in knowledge (cf. Eph. 4:7-16). This includes his gift of teachers of eras gone by. Sure deception abounds, but there are plenty of gifted teachers given to the church as a whole down through the ages and in our own age. We are fools to try to do it on our own.

    I refer you to this post about “Lone-Ranger-Christians” by James Spurgeon of the new Pyromaniacs blog. (Also check out this post which clarifies his first post, somewhat.) Also check out this post by Ryan DeBarr regarding our absolute dependence on learning and study to be able to understand the Bible.

    Reply

  9. dbull — Disregarding bible teachers would make the command of Heb 13:7 difficult…

    “Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.”

    Key phrase here for you is probably “consider the outcome of their way of life.” That is, imitate if we see genuine fruit of the spirit in their lives.

    Reply

  10. I am thankful that there are those in the church with public ministries like your own who are able to distinguish between the biblical doctrine of perseverance and the antinomian “once saved always saved””no-lordship eternal security” view.

    Thanks for the post – well done.

    Reply

  11. Bob,

    To use the modern vernacular: “You have totally blown my mind!”

    I recently did a study of Hebrews, using the OSAS perspective that the warnings of apostacy were meant for unsaved Jews “checking out” the claims of Christianity. This, I now understand, fails to explain many other verses warning of apostacy.

    I am truly beginning to see the difference between preservation and perseverance.

    Thanks.

    Reply
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  15. Bryan,

    Thanks for the link. About the point that they never really were saved, I agree that the way OSAS proponents marshall that fact is wrong. However, histocic Calvinism’s Doctrine of Perseverance would say that they never really were saved, too. But Calvinists still place a high value and importance on perseverance. I think that technically it is correct as only the truly elect and all the truly elect will be saved. But from our human perspective, we must always allow room for the fact that we might not truly be saved, that we could in actuality really fall away, as the apostle Paul held out concerning himself (1 Cor. 9:27).

    Other than that, I agree with you.

    God bless,

    Bob Hayton

    Reply
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  18. Thanks for the interesting article. My old pastor used to quip that Jesus promised us eternal life upon receiving him, so what is eternal about something that you can lose? At any rate, if the Spirit teaches us and guides us to all truth, then why is there such a debate amongst Spirit filled Christians regarding this subject? How can Charles Stanley (whom I respect greatly) be so wrong if he is led by the same spirit?

    Reply

  19. HeIsSailing,

    Thanks for commenting. I too respect Charles Stanley, and he has faith in Christ. Certainly he is not encouraging anyone to only believe for 5 minutes. But when explaining what happens if someone only believes for 5 minutes, I believe he is wrong.

    For background on my position, see my two recent articles detailing my change of thinking in this area: “My 219 Epiphany”, part 1 and part 2.

    The Spirit does teach us and guide us into all truth. And he doesn’t just teach and guide only 20th or 21st century Christians. For hundreds of years the consensus Christian position on this issue would be the one I espoused in this article. It is the Reformed position. And for many years many people within Catholicism held a similar view (ie. Augustine).

    Check out John 15:1-7 too.

    If you have any questions about the passages I quote in this article, please ask. Also I encourage you to study them out on your own too. Look up what older commentators said about them, too. There is a wealth of online resources to this end.

    I do pray the Spirit will bring the church to greater clarity and unity on this topic. And I pray God blesses you in your quest for truth.

    Blessings on you because of Christ,

    Bob Hayton

    Reply
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  22. We must not reason with in our own minds whether or not “we” think this or that. We must simply look at the truths of the Bible. The Lord’s Word KJB says that we can not loose our salvation. After all when we get saved we were brought with a price I Corinthians 6:20! Then if we are bought we are no longer ourselves, but we are the Lords. Christ also said in Romans 8:38;John 10:27-28 that we can loose our salvation. If he said no man can take you out of the fathers hand, then are we an exception. Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly states that it is by faith that we are saved. Christ said he is the author and finisher of our faith. Any act of being good Matt 7:21 is clearly a works salvation. Like it or not our thoughts are not his thoughts and our ways are not his ways. that is why I am glad that he is God instead of one of us. We wouldn’t be so merciful. Well Good enough for me God said it in His Word that settles it for me. Once he saves you he doesn’t give you a size one font listing of what you got to do to keep your salvation. No, saved is saved. No matter what when we get saved the Holy Spirit of God will stay with in our hearts.

    Bro: Jacob

    Reply
  23. Pingback: Man-Centered Christianity (part 2) « Fundamentally Reformed

  25. So then…how in the world do you get around Jesus’ own words:

    My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand
    John 10:29

    Every single one of your references never says that those who are being spoken of are Christians, the elect, the chosen.

    John 15:2 if you continue…they don’t abide in Christ..therefore they aren’t saved

    Galatians 5: this is speaking of Judaizers who believed in circumcision was necessary to be saved…so again, they were not saved

    Rev 22: Again…this is not even speaking about Christians at all…pretty brutal that you would include this…

    Reply

  26. Very well tempered and detailed. To persevere is what it is. We certainly persevere because The Spirit perseveres those who are in Christ, but it doesn’t change the fact that, even if it seems like it is real, it may be proven not to be.

    One of my professors, in trying to account for both the eternal assurity of the sufficient sacrifice of Christ for those who are his sheep AND the fact that that eternal reality has continuing, temporal effects and consequences said this:

    “Our salvation is assured, but tenuous, it is eternal, but pinching in upon us right now.”

    Reply

  27. So how do you explain away 1 John 5:13-oh let me guess, it means something else in the Greek right? Whatever, freak I’m a Greek Student and I don’t have to put up with your junk!
    May God damn your soul with ever other false teacher!

    Reply

  28. Lovely Kyle. Thanks for “hoping all things” concerning me. Did you see the verses I provided which seem to support my views? Or are you just throwing out a text to counter mine? We must answer all the texts, they all should harmonize, given that they are all inspired.

    Reply
  29. Pingback: The Big “If”: John Piper’s Father on Perseverance and Eternal Security « Fundamentally Reformed

  30. Greetings Bob, you said:

    “The Bible speaks of our need to “examine” ourselves (2 Cor. 13:5) and to diligently “make our calling and election sure” (2 Pet. 1:10). We cannot assume that since we believed in the past or made some profession of faith, we are absolutely and inviolably secure eternally. We must make room for the Scriptural potential that our faith could be insincere or not genuine. Luke 8:13 again, speaks of those who “believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away”. Even Paul leaves it open that he might even still yet become a “castaway” (same Greek word for apostate) in 1 Cor. 9:27.”

    What you are advocating is rather perplexing to me. The simple meaning of faith is to trust in, to rely on, to have confidence in, to believe. In every other area of life are we to assume that human beings can know what they’ve placed their faith in, but when it comes to Christ, no one can really know if they’ve placed their faith in Him? Is this really what the Bible teaches? Of course, if you redefine faith as to encompass faithful service (works) to the end of one’s life, then it does follow that no one can truly know for sure if they really have faith until they come to the end and stand in “heaven’s throneroom”. However, to define faith in such a way is to crush underfoot the precious grace of God.

    Concerning Luke 8:13, was Jesus meaning that people have a false faith for a while, or a true faith for awhile? How is it that one can fall away from a false faith? Yes, genuine born-again believers can fall away from their faith and their faith can be shipwrecked. But this doesn’t mean they were never saved to begin with. You can’t shipwreck an aorist belief in Christ. Once someone in a moment of times places trust in Christ they are born again and possess eternal life. This life is powered by the life of Christ within them, not by their continued faith.

    When Jesus asked people to believe in him, did He ever say anything along the lines of, “He that believes in me has eternal life and will never perish, but be careful to make sure that you really believe, because in this life you can never really know for sure that your belief is genuine.”?

    These are precisely the words your teaching would place in the mouth of our Savior. Actually, I should clarify that it’s not your unique teaching, but that of Calvinism.

    You are misusing II Corinthians 13:5 and II Peter 1:10. Those verses were written to those that are truly saved, truly elect. Would it make any sense at all to say these things were written to those who are not elect? How could a non-elect person ever make their election sure? I know for sure that I’m one of the elect, because I’ve trusted in Christ as my Savior. I did not merely make a “profession of faith”, I actually KNOW whom I have believed. If Calvinism would make a liar out of me or tell me that I’m committing a sin of presumption, then I will beg Calvinism’s pardon. Or maybe not.

    The very same ones who Peter told to make their “calling and election sure”, are ones who had genuine faith! Only a regenerate person (elect) can have genuine faith, am I right? Peter tells them just 9 verses earlier that they “have OBTAINED like precious faith”. In other words, the same saving faith as the Apostles!

    “Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:” (II Peter 1:1)

    What if these regenerate people failed to do what Peter told them to do. Would it mean that they were never really regenerate? If being regenerate means by default that they would automatically do it, then why would Peter need to exhort them?

    As for II Corinthians 13:5, what would be the point if no one could really know that Christ is in them?

    What Peter is exhorting the saints to do by making their calling and election sure, is to make it a real and living experience in their lives, to keep laying hold of it by faith. Not in order to make themselves elect, or to make sure that are elect, but in order that their practical application of it would keep them from stumbling.

    You said:

    “Glorification is the point when we are gloriously tranformed into Christ’s image immediately after our death. At this point salvation is final. Up until then, since we cannot enter heaven’s throneroom and hear the irreversible verdict of “not guilty” applied to us, we must trust in sanctification to prove the genuineness of our faith.”

    If we can never know that we have eternal life until we step into “heaven’s throneroom”, how can that be reconciled with I John 5:13 that says we can KNOW that we have eternal life? Did the Apostle John mean that we can merely reasonable know, but we must make room that we might not really know for sure? And what is this “we must trust in sanctification to prove the genuineness of our faith”? Are you trying to say after all that we can know for sure that our faith is genuine before we die? And the standard you offer for this is not the unchangeable Word of God, but something more objective such as the degree of our faithfulness as we view it. I’m astonished!

    Look at the following Scripture:

    “He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.” (Romans 8:32-34)

    Who is this written for if not for the elect? How could any of the elect take solace in this Scripture if they didn’t KNOW that they are one of the elect? Am I making any sense here?
    Paul reminded his Christian brethren of their election! Apparently it is possible to truly know that you are elect before you die.

    “Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.” (I Thessalonians 1:4)

    Paul knew that he was a member of the elect:

    “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;” (Titus 1:1)

    Peter addresses his readers as elect. If they didn’t have the ability to know that they are elect, how could they take his letter to heart?

    “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” (I Peter 1:1-3)

    The Apostle John wrote to an elect lady. Do only the Apostles and those that they address have the privilege of knowing that they are elect?

    “The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;” (II John 1:1)

    You used I Corinthians 9:27 as evidence that even the Apostle Paul left open the possibility that his faith may not be sincere or genuine. By this are you saying that he believed that even he might not be one of the elect? If so, Titus 1:1 directly opposes you. Let’s look at the context:

    “Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” (I Corinthians 9:24-27)

    Paul was concerned with receiving the prize. Contrary to both Arminianism and “Lordship Salvation” rooted in modern Calvinism, the prize is not merely entrance into the Kingdom of God, but one of an abundant entrance. In other words, Paul wanted the highest reward he could possibly attain. Faithful Christians will rule and reign with Christ. Not all born-again Christians are faithful, but they are still saved. I Corinthians 3:15 proves that there will be people in Heaven of which it could not be said that they had “endured to the end” in faithful service to God, for their works are burned up!

    The solution for carnal Christians isn’t changing the terms of the Gospel in order to weed out the weak to make sure that the only true Christians are strong Christians.

    Remember the ten lepers that were healed? All ten were genuinely healed and remained healed, but only one turned back to give thanks. Should Jesus have told them first, “Ok, I’m going to heal you, but only if you first promise to return thanks”?

    Most Christians today are not thankful of their healing, but this does not invalidate the fact that they were healed.

    Phillip M. Evans

    Reply

    1. Brother Phillip

      Don’t know if you still look back on this site anymore but I just simply wish to tell you how this blessed me so. I added my comment/testimony after I read your comments the other day, I then re-read it today, taking time to consider all of the precious verses you quoted and felt I had to share with you how it blessed me. Our Lord is so wonderful I often wonder how folks can take simple yet profound things of scripture and confuse them so. I keep coming back to the same premise that its men that come up with many of these erroneous belief systems.

      Anyway Bro. Phillip I hope wherever you are you are still expounding the scripture and contending for the faith.

      In His Grace,
      Greg

      Reply
  31. Pingback: Approaching a Fearful God — through Christ « Fundamentally Reformed

  32. Should not a child fear their mom and dad lest they get punished? Of course they should! But loving parents never kill their children no matter how they misbehave. Likewise, children of God fear their Heavenly Father. Yes, a child of God is secure and can never go to hell. Likewise, a child in an earthly home is always the son or daughter of their parents. Neither case negates the possibility of appropriate fear. To state otherwise would be nothing short of foolishness.

    Sometimes God will take His misbehaving children home quicker than they would have liked. Just ask Ananias and Saphira. Fear fell on the church, not because they might lose their salvation, as Ananias and Saphira were saved and are in Heaven, but because their bodies could visit the grave sooner than they might have hoped.

    If you believe God must threaten His children with eternal punishment lest we not fear Him, then you must also conclude that earthly parents must threaten to kill their children lest they wouldn’t fear them.

    Is not God’s chastening hand enough for you to fear Him? Is not love enough of a motive to give Him reverent fear? Do you also need Him to threaten you with the unscriptural doctrine that a child of God can lose their eternal salvation?

    Phillip M. Evans

    Reply

  33. I am thunderstruck by the Doug Wilson’s words “Can a Christian fall away? Yes. Can someone who is truly regenerate, elect of God, an eternal Christian, fall away? No, clearly not.”

    If the first use of the word “Christian” pertains to a “professing believer”, then, if they are not really saved, what pray tell, is there to apostatize from? A person who thinks they are saved, but in reality isn’t, is already damned, by definition. What could be worse than that? Yet the thought persists in these posts that a real Christian would never, ever apostatize!

    It truly beggars credulity to see you folk criticize “easy-believeism” and “OSAS” and yet still support the same notion! According to Calvin, no one can truly know they are the elect. Hence the need to see if one is persevering, correct? Now, if one can ascertain that they are NOT persevering, surely one could reasonably tell if they ARE!!

    In short, while Jesus said He will not cast out anyone who comes to Him, He also said that “Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. ”
    (John 15:2 ESV) Now, if the branch is IN Him, it must be OF Him. God is the vinedresser who REMOVES the branches IN Christ that do not bear fruit. But, to stay Calvinists, you must make this a hypothetical “stay off the grass” warning.

    You are very close to the truth, though, when you say that unbelief is the real danger. However, a “professing Christian” who really isn’t one, doesn’t have a real belief to lose, do they?

    May God open our eyes to see ALL the truth.

    Every sin will be forgiven, if confessed to God, except the sin against the Holy Spirit (Matt 12:31) which is simply coming to the point where one no longer or never believes the gospel and will not take God at His Word. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God, hence unbelief is the sin that is to death in 1 John 5:16. John is saying “Don’t bother to pray for anyone who has done what Hebrews 3:12 warns true believers about.”

    Reply

  35. Eloise,

    I’d recommend looking for a Sovereign Grace Ministries’ church, a PCA (Presbyterian Church in America) church, or another church that holds strongly to Calvinistic doctrine while still maintaining a fervent lively spirit (of evangelism and worship). Many SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) churches or even those of other denominations will fit the bill. A little bit of searching online can help with this. If you need more help, send me an email at bobhayton AT gmail DOT com. (put it all together and substitute symbols for the capitalized words)

    Hope this helps,

    God bless,

    Bob Hayton

    Reply

  36. to NWProdigal,

    You say “Every sin will be forgiven, if confessed to God, except the sin against the Holy Spirit (Matt 12:31) which is simply coming to the point where one no longer or never believes the gospel and will not take God at His Word. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God, hence unbelief is the sin that is to death in 1 John 5:16. ”

    How does one determine that a person will never, or never again, believe ? At what point, or at the end of what timeframe ?

    Please consider the following:-
    Rom 11:11 I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous. 11:12 Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration bring?
    11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Seeing that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    11:14 if somehow I could provoke my people to jealousy and save some of them.
    11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
    11:16 If the first portion of the dough offered is holy, then the whole batch is holy, and if the root is holy, so too are the branches.
    11:17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them and participated in the richness of the olive root,
    11:18 do not boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
    11:19 Then you will say, “The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
    11:20 Granted! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you.
    11:22 Notice therefore the kindness and harshness of God – harshness toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    11:23 And even they – if they do not continue in their unbelief – will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
    11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree?
    11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
    11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
    “The Deliverer will come out of Zion;
    he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
    11:27 And this is my covenant with them,when I take away their sins.”
    11:28 In regard to the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but in regard to election they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers.
    11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
    11:30 Just as you were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their disobedience,
    11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. 11:32 For God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all.

    Please also take note of the word all in verse 32 and if you are genuinely searching for the truth, as I am, take a look at this website. If you can prove scripturally that this person is wrong I would be tremendously interested. Take up his challenge.

    http://bible-truths.com/

    Les

    Reply

  37. One of my favorite pastors ever used to say…the question is not OSAS,,,but, are you saved…If not…let’s get that way!

    Following after Jesus is very much the same as marriage…

    We fall in love and join our lives not really knowing or understanding the fullness of the commitment. The questions that follow are often difficult as two lives are melded into one. Wouldn’t it be wonderful to be able to say there are no doubts, no challenges to belief in promises shared?? That just isn’t the human condition. What we can say, is that as we get to know our loved one, and choose daily to recommit and lay our lives down for each other, we are reassured of love’s endurance, if we will let it be so.

    Reply
  38. Pingback: 123 Book Meme « Fundamentally Reformed

  39. “[…] professing but not possessing faith.” Well said! Thanks very much for this insightful article on perseverance of the saints. Not the easiest doctrine to explain to people because there’s a lot of misconceptions surrounding it, e.g. the belief that “once saved always saved” equals this doctrine. Nothing could be further from the truth. God bless !

    Reply

  41. Wow.

    to Phillip Evans: Do you mean to tell me that Ananias and Sapphira after lying to God went straight to heaven? Is that supposed to be God’s punishment to them, to take them out of this earthly battlefield to paradise, their eternal home? Frankly, the bible doesn’t say they went to heaven. Why would they care about their bodies if they lied to God but are in heaven? It doesn’t make sense. I’ve heard this example used many times to show that God will kill us before we fall away as true believers, but I see no evidence of such.

    to fundyreformed: I agree with much of your article, but Phillip and NWProdigal still have some valid points too (especially about apostasy of the elect). I don’t believe OSAS for a second, and I take to heart all of God’s warnings in the New and Old Testaments. We also have to question the doctrine of a man (Calvin) who condoned the murder of a professing Christian (Servetus) who simply doctrinally disagreed with him (See Dan Corner’s http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org).

    I especially agree with you that it is all inspired and all texts must agree. I’m not going to quote more scripture since most of the ones I’d quote are already on there on previous posts and your article. But I leave everyone with this. Harmonizing all scripture points to one theme: God wants a repentant heart that loves and seeks after Him constantly (or daily). Jesus summed it up with “the greatest commandment” and “the second…” There is no OSAS blank check to live as you please, but no amount of good works can get us there either.

    I’m saved by the grace of the Father through my continuous faith in His Son, and kept by the Holy Spirit.

    Peace in Christ brothers,

    Matt

    Reply

  42. Matt,

    We probably agree more than you think. The Servetus case, who denied the Trinity, gets lots of negative press. Calvin interceded for him to get a less severe death. It was the political city council that condemned him, and they had already expelled him once or something like that. He would have met a similar fate in many areas in that day. They viewed heresy as sedition back then. In today’s world we wouldn’t do that. But then we tolerate a whole lot more heresy too. It’s hard for us to judge them on this. Look at Calvin’s wider life and the many testimonies of his sincere piety and love for Christ before you condemn him on this one account.

    Thanks for dropping by and commenting on this old post.

    Blessings in Christ,

    Bob

    Reply

  43. dale moody a baptist has tried to convince other baptist
    the once saved always saved theory is fiction. hobbs
    and others have not been able to prove him wriong, baptist
    generally are in lock step on this. pride wiil not allow them to admit
    their error -besides we would have to build a lot of confessional boxes to accomodate them. thids not being practical -pray for them

    Reply
  44. Pingback: Quotes to Note 11: Once Saved, Always Saved? « Fundamentally Reformed

  45. robert “whosoever will” says: all disciples should know that we are saved by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
    NOT OF WORKS!!! Eph 2:8-9. I’m not willing to add anything to God’s Word. Are you??? The Bible says that God sees and searches the heart…God knows who believes. Jesus said “he who hears My word word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. If it’s everlasting then it can’t be temporary or probationary. Look, God gives salvation, NOT probation. Jesus means savior. Jesus and His Father saves, not we, neither our good works. GRACE TO YOU.

    Reply

    1. Hey Robert, I agree with you. I just also believe that Scripture teaches us that without good works we should not be sure of our faith. Faith without works is dead.

      Reply

  46. Bro Robert says; I agree that we are saved unto good works however, we should not be motivated by fear of loss of salvation. Our motivation should be driven by our love of God and love of neighbor. The law of Christ exhorts us to bear each other’s burdens (Gal. 6:2). We do the faithing and serving, God does the saving and sanctifying. The prophet Isaiah wrote “all our righteousnesses (our BEST DEEDS of rightness and justice) are as filthy rags”. Isaiah 64:6. My motivation for ministering to others is summed up in this much loved yet simple song JESUS LOVES ME, THIS I KNOW, FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO!!! Halleleuah.

    Reply

  47. We are made from the dirt. I have been living in this body of flesh for 51 years, I know that there is (nothing) good about me. If my salvation is dependant upon me being “good” then I promise that you guys will be in heaven w/out Greg. But, thank God when I called upon the Lord, just as Charles Stanley said, he heard a little boys prayer and wondrously saved me, just as the entire new testament teaches (Thank You Lord) Oh folks He is faithful and just and cleanses us from ALL sin. I’m not presently keeping myself “saved” by anything I’m doing. When our Lord said on the cross “it is finished” that is exactly what He meant. I am saved because I trusted in the finished work of Jesus on the cross of Calvary (glory) I am wicked, my righteousness is like filthy rags and yet He loves me and keeps me. I can’t do anything to “earn” salvation, it is simply a gift to be accepted. Its because He first loved me that I love Him and try to serve Him to the very best of my ability, and yet, at times fall miserably short. I can no more “lose” my salvation than my son can stop being my son, it is impossible!

    Because He Lives
    Greg

    Reply

    1. Greg,

      We are not saved by our works. I totally agree with you there. But we are also not saved by merely believing (or assuming) that we are saved. Many assume they are saved because they did a religious ritual such as come forward at an altar call, pray a sinner’s prayer, etc. How does 1 John handle the question of assurance? Does John say, if you prayed a prayer, you’re saved. He says, if you live like a Christian lives, you can be assured you are saved. That’s the pervasive message of the book of 1 John. Believers behave a certain way, and if you don’t see that fruit in your life, you need to pause and “Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith” (to use Paul’s words in 2 Cor. 13:5 – NASB). I’d be interested in your interpretation of some of the texts I shared above, Greg. What about 1 Cor. 15:1-2? How does that fit in with Stanley’s “tattoo” analogy?

      Reply

  48. Bob,

    Grace, Grace God’s Grace. Isn’t it wonderful to know Him and the power of His resurrection?

    While I was looking at your comment, I remembered a book I read some years ago by Chuck Swindoll and I knew that I was going to have to find it and give some of the quotes about grace to you. Now you know I’m not big on what men say and these quotes that I will be using do apply to the topic at hand, but I knew about these things years before I had even heard of Chuck Swindoll.
    In his fantastic work “The Grace Awakening” in a chapter entitled “Isn’t Grace Risky” you will be delighted to know that Swindoll quotes Martin Lloyd-Jones, pastor of Westminster Chapel for decades, who was a staunch Calvinist of the puritan school of thought, at length. I will have to abbreviate some of the quotes for lack of space and time. Dr Lloyd-Jones had this to say about Romans 6 “Are we to continue in sin that grace may increase?” “It is true that where sin abounded grace has much more abounded, well then, shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound yet further. First of all let me make a comment, to me a very important and vital comment. The true preaching of the gospel of salvation by grace alone always leads to the possibility of this charge being brought against it. There is no better test as to whether a man is really preaching the New Testament gospel of salvation than this, that some people might misunderstand it and misinterpret it to mean that it really amounts to this, that because you are saved by grace alone it does not matter at all what you do; you can go on sinning as much as you like because it will redound all the more to the glory of grace. That is a very good test of gospel preaching. If my preaching and presentation of the gospel of salvation does not expose it to that misunderstanding, then it is not the gospel.” skipping some paragraphs here “That is my comment; and it is a very important comment for preachers. I would say to all preachers: If your preaching of salvation has not been misunderstood in that way, then you had better examine your sermons again, and you had better make sure that you really are preaching the salvation that is offered in the New Testament to the ungodly, to the sinner, to those who are dead in trespasses and sins, to those who are enemies of God.” love this last line “There is this kind of dangerous element about the true presentation of the doctrine of salvation.” Then Swindoll comments “To Martyn Lloyd-Jones grace was not only risky, it was downright dangerous. He was clearly convinced it could be easily misunderstood. Meaning what? Well, some people will take advantage of it. They will misrepresent it. They will go to such an extreme that they will promote the erroneous idea that you can go on sinning as much as you like. To all fellow ministers I must add my voice to that of Martyn Lloyd-Jones; If you claim to be a messenger of grace, if you think you are really preaching grace yet no one is taking advantage of it, maybe you haven’t preached it hard enough or strong enough. I can assure you of this: Grace-killing ministers will never have that charge brought against them. They make sure of that!”

    I have no problem at all with 1 John teaching that we confirm our faith by our works, this is precisely what I believe. I thing the book of James has the best quote “Faith without works is dead.”

    Now as to 1 Cor 15:1-2 This does tie in nicely with those passages in 1 John and James. If that is the way you understand it. Now I certainly don’t believe that in order to get to heaven “I’m holding fast to the end” that goes against everything I feel the new testament teaches. “Not by works of righteousnes which we have done but according to His mercy He has saved us” I’m not too sure about the ESV’s use of “being saved” here, I have no real problem knowing that I am being “saved” however I noticed almost all other versions say “saved”

    I agree with most of your comment here Bob. I agree that too often in fundamentalists churches emphasis is put on walking that aisle and going through some “ritual” then you get patted on the back and welcomed to the kingdom w/out really and truly having come to the Lord, but as Swindoll and Lloyd-Jones state thats the “risky” part of grace.

    I think Bro Stanley understands this precious Grace and is being “risky” with the salvation message. I applaud and support him.

    Because He Lives,
    Greg

    Reply

  49. While it might be too late to edit (it just might not be), I thought you might want to know of a common but meaning-altering typo you have in your very thoughtful and helpful article.

    Just below the quote from John Piper, you have “Without exception, Rom. 2:6-11 states: “He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immorality, he will give eternal life …”

    I’m sure you would rather it be ” …to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and IMMORTALITY, he will give eternal life …”

    ;o)

    BTW, I’m looking forward to hearing the Reformed Cast podcast interview with you and Scott Oakland. Both my and his families attend the same church. I’m just getting to know him, but he seems like a neat fellow already.

    The Lord bless you and keep you!

    Reply

    1. Shawn,

      Great catch. I love an editor’s eye. I’m going to be reworking this post soon probably and I’ll fix it.

      I’m looking forward to Reformed Cast, too.

      Thanks!

      Bob

      Reply

  50. I read the above article with extreme interest, as it is one that should be of great concern to us today. One of the problems alluded to, but not stated, is the problem with Christians compared to those “lost” in that by their life style you can’t tell any difference, or them from us. And, as I tell my Sunday School class, there are some of the “lost” that are “gooder” than we are when it comes to works. I was surprised to see two particular references left out of the article. The first was Eph 2:8 which says that we are saved through faith, by Grace, not of works, lest any man should boast, which means it is an affair of the heart and not based on what we do. Not because of what we have done, but because of what God has done through His Grace, (love), for us. Now, this Grace is a powerful thing. Paul says “three times I have prayed that God would take away my infirmity and three times God said, “My Grace is sufficient.” When we put man’s limitations on things of God we always come up short. The other passage I was surprised not to see was I Cor 3:15. In order to understand it you need to read that entire section. As you all know, we can make any passage mean what we want it to by taking it out of context. And scripture taken out of context is pretext. But, I Cor 3:15 talks about man’s work and if it is the basis of his salvation, it will be burned up, but “he himself shall be saved.” V:14 says he can receive a reward for his work, but it is not the basis for salvation. In reading the article I felt as though I Cor 9:27 was taken out of context. By itself it sounds as though Paul was working his way to heaven, but looking at V:25 & 26 that he is talking about his life style after preaching to others. It is like us today. If we say one thing, then live another way, we can certainly be the cause of sending people to hell.

    It is impossible for us to be able to work our way to heaven. I will point out two confirming points. In Gen 6:5 God says “the wickedness of man was great upon the earth and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” By ourselves that doesn’t sound too promising, does it? If left to ourselves we would not be able to make it, and our mind would not be on good works, but on evil things. Secondly, I have often wondered why at the end of the Millennium Satan is able to gather together an army to defeat Jesus. We will have just come through a time of perfect peace and tranquility such as never known on the earth. Yet, Satan goes to the four corners of the earth and gathers together a, (not just a large army, but a very large army). The big difference between the Millennium is that in our lives there are three things that cause us to sin. One is the world which is sinful, so much so that it must ultimately be destroyed. Secondly, Satan himself is all around, and will cause us to sin. The third thing is our own mortal bodies. Well, at that time, the world is not a sinful place. It is the Millennium and Jesus Himself is in charge, basically a Utopia for a thousand years. So, that does not contribute to man’s sinfulness. Secondly, Satan is imprisoned in the bottomless pit and is not around to tempt man, so he cannot contribute to man’s sinfulness. The only thing is left is the body of man. So, it is apparent where the sin is intiated and why Satan is able to put together an army. Man is sinful, not clean and perfect. And, man cacnnot and will not do good things on his own unless he thinks he sees some reward at the end of it for himself. And, if no where else I Cor 3:15 certainly indicates that works aren’t going to do it. Do I believe a Christian can lose his salvation? Absolutely not, if he is truly a born-again, bible believing God saved individual. Can a person appear to be a Christian and appear to lose his salvation? Absolutey, since he never was to begin with. Refer to the sower of seed in the Scriptures. If any one would like to respond my e-mail address is above.

    Reply
  51. Pingback: Thoughts on the Battle of Jericho « Fundamentally Reformed
  52. Pingback: Reformation Week: John Calvin on Perseverance « Fundamentally Reformed
  53. Pingback: J.C. Ryle on Revivalism « Fundamentally Reformed

  54. In another post you criticize Independant Baptist preachers for preaching out against sin and preaching for Biblical living. In this post you postulate that a man can loose salvation if he is not living biblically. Just where do you stand? You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

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  55. Pingback: Salvation in the Present Tense: Are We “Being Saved”? « Fundamentally Reformed

  56. Great topic. I preached on this about one month ago and there is this feeling that eternal security makes people digress into a license for sinning…I told them that its presumptuous to trample on the blood of Christ…dangerous ground for sure. Great write up.

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  59. Hebrews 5:9 “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
    “ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED” FALSE FALSE FALSE
    “ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED TO THOSE WHO OBEY” TRUE TRUE TRUE
    Can a sinner saved loose salvation absolutely Acts 8 Simon believed then he tried to buy holyspirit gift was chastised by peter to repent
    Can an Elect saved loose salvation absolutely Matt 10:1 Jesus called unto him his twelve Matt 26:21 Verily I say unto you that one of you shall betray me.
    Betray one who once stood with who now stand against. breath thous because many never see this Matt 27:3 then Judas which had betrayed him when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself and brought again thethiryt pieces of silver to the chief. Matt 27:5 and departed and went an hanged himself.
    Saved with Jesus, betrayed Jesus unsaved, repented saved by Jesus again, murdered himself unsaved in selfishness an Elect of God.
    Final Charles Stanley for years preached “once saved always saved today he has been revealed the truth of God and teached “Salvation is the constant state of confession for frogiveness unto purity”.
    Eyes Right Eyes on Jesus not religion or theology

    Theologians know the Word
    Religions use the Word
    Christians simply follow the Word

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  60. Here is my story: I grew up fundamentalist Baptist. I repented of all my sins and accepted Jesus Christ into my heart to be my Lord and Savior at age nine…and again in my early teens…just to be sure. In my early 20’s my family moved to another state where we attended a non-denominational, evangelical mega-church (which taught Baptist doctrine) for several years. In my mid to late 20’s I stopped going to church because I didn’t “feel” God inside me and he didn’t seem to listen when I prayed.

    I remained unchurched until I was married in my forties. I started attending liberal churches. When we had children, I started looking again at more conservative/fundamentalist churches, something closer to what I had believed as a child and teenager. We joined a conservative, orthodox Lutheran church. I became very involved in the church. I was happy and content in my orthodox Christian belief system. I read the Bible and prayed regularly.
    One day I was surfing the internet and came across an atheist’s website. He was a former fundamentalist Baptist/evangelical pastor! I was shocked! I started to engage him in conversation, and also tried to bring him back to the Faith, to belief in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.
    However, this man pointed out to me some very big assumptions in my Christian belief system which I had never thought of, such as:

    1. Just because there is evidence for a Creator does not mean that the Creator is the Christian God, Yahweh.

    2. Our current Bibles contain thousands of scribe alterations, most of them inconsequential, but a couple of them are shocking. Why did God allow scribes copying the original Scriptures to change, delete, add, or alter his inerrant, Holy, Word?

    3. How do we know that the books of the New Testament are the Word of God? Is there a verse that tells us? Did Jesus give us a list? Did Paul?

    4. Do we really have any verifiable eyewitness testimony for the Resurrection or is it all hearsay and legend?

    5. Modern archaeology proves that the Captivity in Egypt, the Exodus, the forty years in the Sinai, the Conquest of Canaan, and the great kingdoms of David and Solomon are only ancient Hebrew fables.

    At first I fought him tooth and nail. I fought him for four months. At the very end I had to admit that there are no verifiable eyewitness accounts of the Resurrection of Jesus in the Bible or anywhere else. All we have are four anonymous first century texts full of discrepancies and contradictions. The only thing I had left to attach my faith to was the testimony of the Apostle Paul: why would a devout Jewish rabbi convert to a religion he so hated unless he really saw a resurrected dead man on the Damascus Road?
    But after studying the five Bible passages that discuss Paul’s conversion, I had to admit that Paul never says he saw a resurrected body. All Paul says is that he saw a light…and that this event occurred in a “heavenly vision”. Visions are not reality…not in the 21st century nor in the 1st.

    And as for the improbability that a Jewish rabbi would convert to a hated religion, there is a Muslim cleric in Israel today who not too many years ago was an ardent Zionist Jewish settler and rabbi, intent on ridding the Muslims from Jewish land.

    Strange conversions occur. They do not prove that the new religion is true and inerrant.

    I was broken-hearted, but I saw my Christian Faith was nothing more than an ancient superstition that had been modified in the first century by Jesus, a good man, but a dead man. There is zero evidence that this first century Jew is alive and the Ruler of the Universe.

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  61. Gary, if you will believe in your heart the divine personhood of Jesus Christ, and put your trust in his atoning work for you on the Cross , you will start receiving all the benefits of God’s eternal grace and favor, both now and in the life hereafter. Continue believing and trusting every day for the rest of your life and become a greater blessing to all whose lives you touch.

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