Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike agree that unregenerate man is dead in his sins. He is lost and blind–even captive. In short, he needs help! And Christ provides the help. So far, so good, yet a fork in the road lies just ahead. One group (Calvinists) insists such a man needs regeneration before he can receive the word and believe. The other group sees the desperate sinner as hopeless apart from the gospel. Yet with the gospel’s proclamation, this dead man can receive the truth of the gospel and believe. Arguments over the interpretation of the death metaphor aside, a few Scriptural passages seem to plainly contradict the second view.
Both sides affirm that sinful man needs regeneration. Rom. 8:8 states, “Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Both sides also agree that faith and regeneration are intimately connected. Either faith immediately results in regeneration, or regeneration is seen as producing faith (and most would say this happens almost immediately after regeneration).
Now, I ask, how can non-Calvinists affirm that unregenerate men cannot please God, and also affirm that unregenerate men can become regenerated by believing in God–thereby pleasing Him (Heb. 11:6)? Can they just decide to believe and please God? Remember, they are in the flesh when they are unsaved. Not being in the flesh would indicate that they had been born again–regenerated. So just prior to their exercising faith (which pleases God), they are actually still “in the flesh”, and thus they cannot please God!
A solution is offered by some. Since God regenerates us with the Word of Truth (James 1:18), and since “faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ” (Rom. 10:17), then with the preached word the sinful, unregenerate man is enabled to accept or reject the gospel message. The Spirit imparts life through the Word (John 6:63), so the argument goes, and thus the dead sinner becomes able to receive the gospel and believe.
Taking a step back, that last sentence sounds an awful lot like the Calvinist view which argues that the Spirit regenerates us, using the Word of Truth, before we are enabled to believe. And there is much in the non-Calvinist view which might attract people to its position. It offers a harmonization of passages which seem to imply unsaved man can respond to God’s message with those that teach he cannot. God is seen as extremely nice–giving all a supposedly equal chance. It saves face for mankind by proving that he is not a mere puppet.
Yet this view–that men are enabled to receive the gospel and believe through the preaching of the gospel and the interaction of the Spiritual Word upon their hearts–flies in the face of several key passages. 1 Cor. 2:14 seems very decisive: “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” So this verse says that when the Word of God and the preaching of the gospel message interact with the unregenerate, these lost people do not accept the gospel because they think it foolish and further, they cannot understand it, since it is spiritually discerned! Far from enabling them, the preached word is trampled under foot like pearls given to swine. Paul explains this further in 2 Cor. 4:3-6: “And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” Here the lost are said to be blind to the message of the Gospel. Further, there appears to be no in-between-stage half way from sight and blindness. There is no period where the lost is enabled to believe, considers the message of the Gospel for a while, and later makes his verdict. Rather, they cannot see or even understand the message as an unregenerated person–but in a moment God shines in their hearts giving them the light of the Gospel of the glory of God in Christ. (Keep in mind that God’s word is describing what actually happens inside a person–we cannot use our experience to correct the word. It may appear to us that some are in an in-between-stage, yet Scripture interprets that experience differently.)
Now, I have encountered several people who claim to reject Calvinism yet affirm that repentance and faith are gifts of God. They claim God gives them to those who begin to respond to the Gospel, having been enabled by the life-giving words of the Spirit. I have yet to understand how this idea can fit in with verses like 2 Tim. 2:24-26: “And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.” Here repentance is God’s gift to those who are captured by the devil. Notice, that God “may perhaps grant”. Now how exactly is repentance a gift? If all who hear the Gospel are enabled to repent and receive/believe, then the gift of repentance is not merely the opportunity to repent. And if before you have the gift you are captured by the devil and possess no repentance, it seems to me that when you receive the gift of repentance, you are set free and enabled to repent for the first time. One moment you have no repentance, the next moment you have it–as a gift of God!
More could be said, for sure! But this is to say that regeneration, reception, and belief happen in this specific sequential order. Regeneration happens internally resulting in a heart that receives the word and then believes in Christ. All of this is a gift of grace from a merciful and loving God to a totally undeserving criminal of a sinner.
∼striving for the unity of the faith for the glory of God∼ Eph. 4:3,13 “¢ Rom. 15:5-7
Great article, Bob. Short and to the point. Raised as a strict non-Calvinist, I thought regeneration before salvation was lunacy. I am slowly putting the pieces together. keep up the good work.
Glad you’re back, even if it is just for now. My one commenter is allowed a break! I’m so impressed what an extensive ripple my tiny little splash has caused! I wish I had the kind of time you have so that I may treat my subjects as well as you do! Keep up the good work and keep on fighting the good fight.
Limited Atonement and the fact that regeneration precedes faith were the two last strongholds to fall before I was willing to admit that the Calvinist system had won the battle for my mind. I wrestled for a long time with Ephesians 1:13 only because the KJV used seemingly chronological language, “after you believed, you were sealed . . . ” and then it took reading a “5 points” book to discover 1 Cor. 5:15 in which the logic of “Christ died for all, therefore all died,” showed me in explicit language that Christ died for all the elect, otherwise the entire world died “that they may live unto him who died for them” (quoting these verses from memory, so they may be Headknowledge paraphrases), which would teach universalism. But what’s that got to do with Total Depravity? Well, when you sniff one petal of the TULIP, the other four are along for the ride, kind of like the nine “fruit” (singular) of the spirit.
May I ask for your input on my previous post on “A Dark Day for KJV Onlyists?”
Reg Joe & Capt’n,
Thanks for your comments! You are two of my most faithful commenters. It is an encouragement to fellowship with you both in this way.
The Big Orange Truck will be hauling a load of tulips before long! And, Capt’n: it is a joy to be a commenter for you. I enjoy your posts–especially since your journey was similar to mine. I’ll have to go over and leave a little feedback on your Dark Day for KJVOs post. Glad to oblige!
God bless you both,
Bob
I have also heard some people say that God has given every person common grace so that they can believe.
You are so right though. Even faith-regenerationist would talk like Calvinist. They would say, “We pray that the Holy Spirit would work in so and so’s heart.” But then they would vehemently fight when we plainly say the same thing. We just say that no can come unless the Holy Spirit works. Alas…what of double talk.
MBS~Soli Deo Gloria
I enjoyed your post. As a former tulip stomping IFB I enjoy when this subject is expounded upon by former IFBs.
Thanks for your comments on “Dark Day” Having read Riddlebarger’s paper on Warfield regarding textual criticism, I was applying what I learned to some things I already knew and wanted some feedback to make sure I’m not wandering too far off track.
You’re the greatest, bro!
Keep watching that post, however, I have a request in for Kim Riddlebarger to critique my post too! That should be very enlightening, if he gets around to it between sermons and publishing deadlines! Hey, have you seen my new blog linked from my profile? I almost had the privilege to start teaching the college age kids at my church, but the four members on the roll all providentially began going separate ways. My wife and I are now preparing to begin teaching third and fourth graders! We’re moving from the fifth and sixth grade class so that our friend, who gave up that class to have a baby, could have the class back!
Excellent post, Bob.
I agree with Matthew – some people tend to talk out of both sides of their mouths. I’ve heard it said, ‘he preaches like an Arminian, but prays like a Calvinist.’ 🙂 I mean if you think about it, when praying for somone’s salvation, what are people asking God to do if not INTERVENE!? And when He does intervene and save someone, what do people do? They give all the credit (glory) to the person and their ‘decision.’
People give much lip service to God’s sovereignty – as in they acknowledge it, until it seemingly violates their own free will. No one likes to think they’re not ‘in control.’
I’ve only been on this road (God’s sovereignty) for a year and a half, and like BOT, the pieces have slowly but surely fallen into place.
What are you saying? I think of the centurion Cornelius whom Peter preached to, and the church that believed after the preaching of Apollos. They obviously had their hearts prepared for the Gospel, but had not yet heard the Gospel until Paul arrived. Praise the Lord their lives were preserved until the time that they had the opportunity to receive the Good News about Christ, but had they passed away before hearing the Gospel would they have gone into eternity with God as others who had been regenerated, if so why was it important and why does Luke in Acts seem to stress the importance that the gospel was preached to them? If they were indeed already saved why was it necessary for any of them to receive the Gospel that Christ had died for them?
I think this is the breaking point between moderate and extreme Calvinists. Calvinism taken to this extreme denies the foundation of the Christian faith, which is based upon Christ’s shed blood as the atonement no matter how limited or extensive it may indeed be. If this is the case with Calvinism, I have a problem with the claim that it is more scripturally correct, all the while de-emphasizes the miracle that
“For when we were yet without strength,
in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:6
and
“But God commended his love toward
us, in that, while we were yet sinners,
Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:8.
I am not pointing out these verses as arguments against Calvinism, but as emphasis that the Death of Christ is more important for salvation than an “orange truck hulling tulips.” (Don’t gloat in your theology, it really is un-Christ-like)
If we believe that God has foreknowledge of who will be saved from before the beginning of creation, then we have to also believe that God had foreknowledge that Christ would be the sacrifice for sin from before the beginning of creation. This aspect of salvation is more beautiful than who will be saved. Think about it, Christ, as God, created the universe knowing that he would have to subject his sovereignty to the confines of his creation in order to regain fellowship with those he had created to love him. It is humbling to think that despite Gods knowledge of what it would cost Him, we were of enough value to him that He was willing to create us anyway. In this light it nearly seems irrelevant to lift ourselves up and claim that we are somehow better because we are chosen and elect. If we are indeed elect it is not because of who we are, but because of God’s mercy. We have not done anything to gloat about or to deserve Gods mercy.
Joshua,
I do appreciate your input. However, I think you are misunderstanding this. I want to start by stressing you need to understand the main thrust of all of Calvinism before objecting to it piecemeal. Please read this short booklet by John Piper, it gives a great overview of and Bibical explanation of the five points of Calvinism in a very readable and understandable way.
First off, election is all of God’s grace and is not conditioned by any value in us at all. God receives joy in sharing the wonders of His own unlimited joy in Himself and in His Son through creating us and redeeming us to let us share that joy. We do not add anything to God, but we increase His joy in that He can share the joys He has, albeit we experience that joy in a lesser extent than God the Creator experiences it.
I must stress that regeneration logically and causally precedes faith. It produces the faith which is required for justification and salvation. It is not separated in time, however. The reason we believe is that God gave us the gift to repent and believe. And the Spirit has definitely been working in us prior to that time of reception.
And everything hinges on Christ. God the Father planned/elected/foreordained/predestined our salvation. Christ purchased our salvation, and the Holy Spirit accomplishes our salvation through regeneration and applying the spoken word to our hearts giving us faith and repentance to believe in Christ and sustaining our spiritual life and faith until the day we are resurrected to heaven.
Think of regeneration as the behind the scenes work of God. The preaching of the gospel is the upfront work of God. It is what we humans see, but the Spirit is at work in us behind the scenes. The word is preached and we respond in faith and repentance because of the Spirit’s work in us. Why else would we respond positively? How can we please God apart from the Spirit’s enablement? What exactly is 2 Tim. 2:24-26 talking about if not that God enables us to believe? What is Acts 13:48 talking about, other than that God causes those whom He has elected to ultimately trust in Christ and receive free salvation?
You might find this post instructive as well.
Is any of this making sense? Do you understand a little better where I am coming from? Have you read Piper’s article?
Wow, That is the most concise and to the point definition of Calvinism that I have ever read. (See link in above post “this short booklet by John Piper”) What can I say, I am speechless. It appears that I am more of a “Calvinist” than I previously though. I find it interesting that I have always heard Calvinism maligned as a false form of doctrine that has created an elitist segment of Christianity. Although I don’t prefer to call myself a Calvinist for historical reasons, I must concede that the explanation of the Gospel found in the teachings of Calvinism have become visibly in my understanding Biblically accurate.
That being said, I have to hold to my previously stated point, which incidentally I no longer see as at odds with “Calvinism” Christ deserves Glory for his Miraculous plan of Salvation because despite his foreknowledge of his death at Calvary He still created man who would need to be saved.
Finally it is important that we recognize man’s tendency to systematize things. We are organizers and often in a very disorganized way. Like rats we take perfectly good objects and make our nests that seem to us orderly, neat and comfortable. Anyone who has ever seen a rat’s nest knows what a mess they are. Theological systems can be the same way; in our attempt to categorize the Gospel and make the Bible orderly we disrupt the scripture and create confusion. I am not saying that Pipers booklet did this, but that there must have been some reason that Calvinism needed to be explained. Thank you for encouraging me (not once, not twice but three times) to read this booklet. I wouldn’t say it clarified my understanding of Salvation or make it anymore concrete, I was already sure of that, but what I read really for the first time clarified what Calvinism really is.
Joshua,
Thanks for reading, and I am glad you understand “Calvinism” better now. I do agree that we can tend to systematize too much. And that we should not be overly confident in our own systemization. There are some Calvinists who are so dead set on their beliefs that they imagine anyone who doesn’t hold to the five points as not even being saved. They have given Calvinism its bad name.
In truth, Calvinism frees you to hope the best in anyone who claims the name of Christ. God may very well be at work in that person’s life, even if they don’t understand everything to the level that we believe we do. In fact, at our church (I attend Piper’s church here in Minneapolis) there is not requirement to subscribe to Calvinism to be a member. There is to be an elder, but that makes sense because we want to have our elders teaching from the same basic understanding of Scripture.
Don’t worry too much about having to have your theological position defined. But do labor to understand the Calvinism that men like Piper, MacArthur, Mohler, and Sproul are advocating. In understanding their take on Calvinism, you may find some questions of your own answered, or you may find some nebulous things more clearly brought to focus. But again, feel free to depart from anything in favor of Scripture, however, be warned that many shun God’s working in the history of the church to come up with their own novel intepretive grid on Scripture (think free grace theology here, and other aberrant systems). Are we that sure of our own private interpretation that we should just ignore what God did in the Reformation and what was largely accepted for hundreds of years, even by almost all Baptists up until the 1900s?
God bless you Josh, keep growing and serving Christ. I appreciate your input and feedback—keep me on my toes. Feel free to comment anytime around here.
Bob Hayton
Calvinism is a man made philosophy. No where do we find TULIP in sequence in any book in the bible depicted as the salvation process. Though Calvanism has some valid points to take into consideration, extreme Calvinism(5 pt) is very dangerous to the Christian faith. We must remember that Calvin was a reformist from Catholicism Some beliefs of Catholicism has carried over into this philosophy.
I have witnessed the fruit of extreme Calvinism whereas some insinuate that one is Elected, chosen and imputed faith, almost “saved” while using Christ and the Cross for the sanctification process only. Also suggesting that not everyone is “chosen” to be saved. Jhn 3:16 states; ” For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Notice “whosoever”. The word Jesus means “Salvation”, Christ means “ressurected anointed one”. Extreme Calvanism takes away who Christ is in some cases. He is Lamb of God, Messiah, Savior, our Groom to be, Son of the Living God, El Shaddai, etc. etc.. Election doesnt save!
Take heed, beware…a little leaven, leavens the whole lump!
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. Even Paul said that he did not come to preach the philosophies of men, the traditions of men nor the rudiments of the world however, he came to preach the power of the cross. Regeneration comes through the working of the Holy Spirit which is given to us as our Comforter after we receive Christ. Also the Spirit of truth. Just because we are spiritually dead in our sins …meaning…if we continue to sin, it will lead us to eternal death with no hope of Salvation does not necessarily mean we are so dead that we can’t think, make choices, reason, decide, or even believe in something. Many people have faith or believe and don’t need to be imputed “faith” first. Christ is the cornerstone not Calvin…be careful. Faith comes by hearing!!!!
Does a child need to be imputed with faith first to have faith to learn to ride a bicycle? No, he reasons and then believes he can. Amen?
You do realize that God choosing, election and predestination are ALL biblical terms correct?
It seems as though you have come more to rant than to add anything to the conversation…
Do you know that the word “whosoever” is an English term and not a Greek term? It is better understood in the Greek to mean “those believing”
I love to interact with those that want to interact, but dude, put away the rant…that is tired.
Seth,
You may call it “rant” however, I would call it “imparting truth”…for your sake!
Extreme Calvinism is a deception!..sorry
Predestinate is used 2x in the KJV both in context according to what God’s Son has done for us.
Rom 8:29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:30 as well). God predestined that all who would believe in His Son would conform to His image! This predetermination by God was foreshaddowed when animals were slaughtered and their skins used to “clothe” Adam and Eve in the Garden after the fall. An innocent sacrificial living animal was the requirement. Hence, Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world to “recover” or “reclothe” us. We were originally made in His image to also return spiritually as reconciled unto God through sacrifice.
Election used 6X in the KJv
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
1Th 1:4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake..
Our “election” is based on “our” receiving of Christ and the Holy Ghost which is the Power that is giving us to “change” into His image….with much assurance …
Do you mean “add” conversation to the man-made philosophy?..which evidently is “added” to the Word of God???
Whosover in greek is “pas”, meaning-
1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
Yes, those believing(each, any etc.) “by choice” in Christ the Son of the Living God.
You need to study the Word Bro, more than the philosophy of Calvin.
Had to say it with the Love of Christ.
c. Hartline
You said that our election is based on “our” choice? Where is that in the Bible…chapter and verse please.
Eph 1:11 tell us that we are predestined according to His purpose and the counsel of His will…
Question for you: You are saying that God’s counsel of who to elect comes by way of our choice of God, yet this Scripture tells us that God used only His will to counsel Him…
Again…you add to Scripture when you say:
Yes, those believing(each, any etc.) “by choice†in Christ the Son of the Living God.
It doesn’t say that…it says in the Greek “those believing” shall not perish.
If you believe that God chooses us based on our choice of Him…is this not God learning something? He only elects based on the knowledge that we will choose Him…that is learning.
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM?
1 Corinthians 2:16
There is some of the “word bro”
by the way…you once again add to the words of Paul in 1 Thessalonians…
Paul’s point is that the Thessalonians can be assured of salvation by their election because they chose God because of the working of the Holy Spirit.
Election from God brings assurance because if it was based on my faith then what makes me from changing my mind? But, if it is the power of the Holy Spirit and if God is the one who started the work and the perfector of that work (Phil 1:6), I can be assured of my salvation.
You need to bring Scripture to the table and not bring in your thoughts on those Scriptures…just find me a verse that says that we choose God and based on that He elects us…it’s not in the Bible…
By the way…your thoughts of God looking down the portal of time to elect those who would choose Him falls when you look at Matthew 11:20-24
Jesus says that there would have been some cities who would have repented if they had the same miracles as Chorazin. So, based on your argument…why didn’t God elect those people? Why didn’t He send them the miracles? Jesus says they would have repented, yet withheld miracles…interesting…
Wow Seth, there is so much to sift through. I will do my best to understand where you are coming from.
Election. See above comment 1 Ths 1:4
Read the “whole” chapter of Ephesians Chp 1.
In ref. to understanding “predestinated” we have to at least read 5-7 to understand vs 11
Eph 1:5-7 reads Eph 1:5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
As I said in my first response to you, God had a “predestined plan” to redeem us back through His Son’s blood.
Hence: Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
read on…Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ
That “we”…who first trusted in Who???? …in Christ
Eph 1:13 In whom “ye” also [trusted], after that “ye” heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that “ye” believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,…
Matt. 11 in general is a tribute to John the Baptist who came preaching repentence. vrs:20-24 is about Judgement on the “unrepented”. …hence because “they” repented not!
I am not trying to be sarcastic in anyway here, these comments are truly with grace and love. I am a Bible Teacher…I am just curious as to what Bible you are reading from. I have found some of the later versions to seemingly contradict the kjv by the way the phrases are stated.
Just know Seth…that Calvinism IS a man-made philosophy. One in which seeks to be biblically supported to be found true. I have found that it could be dangerous to try to support it’s tenants.
The Pure Word of God…the Bible is the safest to study and invest time in.
Quite honestly, some of the Calvanistic verbiage used to me sounds like a foreign language than I am use to biblically.
Thank you for your response. I hope I have answered some of your questions.
C.Hartline
C Hartline,
I appreciate your taking the time to interact here. Sorry I’ve been missing in action. I have the excuse of a newborn right now.
I responded with a new post on the main page. And I do plan on responding to some of your points here.
In the meantime please interact with the new post and more importantly try to read the short booklet by my pastor linked to above (and in that post).
Blessings in Christ,
Bob Hayton
Seth,
Thanks for jumping in. Don’t feel shy, this is an open forum.
Blessings brother,
Bob
Thanks for your response Bob. I did send you a personal email, which indeed was sent to you before your above response was posted. As I stated in the email, in all due respect to your website, I don’t mind sharing my perspective privately.
Thank you for the liberty to respond openly. Because of your opening statement; “Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike agree that unregenerate man is dead in his sins.” I originally assumed this site was for non-Calvinists, as well. As a Bible Teacher and Apologetic, I am open for the challenge if you welcome it. However, it will take more than opinion to get our points across. I will indeed read your short booklet.
Again, thank you for your time and consideration,
God bless you, your family and your newborn,
In Christ,
C. Hartline
C. Hartline.
You completely miss the point I was trying to make in Matthew 11. Jesus specifically says that if miracles were sent to Tyre and Sidon they would have repented…so you have to answer the question of why did God NOT send them miracles? If believing is just merely weighing evidence given, shouldn’t God have given them the same amount of evidence that they the others were getting, especially if God KNEW they would repent?
I would contend it was because they were not among his elect.
Eph 1:1-13 is very clear in an understanding. The first 11 verses are all about what God has done and the only times we are mentioned is when we are said to receive this grace brought by God.
When you take a look at this passage as a whole you can see that it is not the Ephesians who are praised for anything at all, but all praise is given to God because it is from God.
Notice some things in spoken of in Ephesians 1:
Grace to you and peace from God (v2)
He chose us (v 4)
He predestined us (v5)
To the praise to the glory of His grace
He freely bestowed (v6)
According to the riches of His grace (v7)
He lavished on us (v8)
He made known to us the mystery of His will (v9)
In these there is also listed the reasons that these things were given to those chosen, is it because of anything we did? The obvious answer is, NO. It is not because God looked down the “portal of time†to see who would choose Him and then in turn He elected them.
Look here:
Verse 5: according to the kind intention of His will
Verse 9: according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
Verse 11: according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will
C. Hartline,
I promised you a response to your comments above. Here goes. I’ll try to be brief.
1) You mention we never find TULIP in sequence in any book of the Bible as the salvation process. Now TULIP is not really the salvation process, first of all. It is a 5 point response to the follower’s of Jacobus Arminius and their new doctrine. They had put forth 5 key points, and the 5 points of Calvinism responded to them. Personally, I describe TULIP as really just explaining what goes on behind the scenes in salvation. It is the mechanics of what happens spiritually to us and why, but from a human standpoint we preach the gospel to all (since we don’t know who is elect and who isn’t & because we are commanded to) and some respond while others don’t.
Before leaving this point, I should point out that we also do not find the Roman’s Road or the 4 Spiritual Laws in sequence either. The Roman’s Road is a string of verses pulled out here and there from Roman’s and arranged according to a man-made system of thought. Jesus’ response to the rich young ruler and Rom. 2:6-10 both would be examples of Scripture passages whose teaching looks different than the Roman’s Road.
2) You repeatedly claim that 5 point Calvinism is extreme and dangerous to the Christian faith. First off you should know that classic Calvinism is 5 point Calvinism. Hyper Calvinism is extreme Calvinism. The hypers often refuse to claim God loves all people and do not evangelize. 5 pointers strongly object to those beliefs. Godly men, whose life and teaching were by no means dangerous to Christianity, such as Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, William Carey, Adoniram Judson, and Charles Spurgeon were all 5 point Calvinists.
3) You seem to be understanding Calvinism as praising man and ignoring Christ. This is a wrong idea. Calvinism is what our belief system or doctrinal system has been called. It is an easy way of referring to our beliefs. But we uphold Christ as essential to salvation and as our true Lord. We are followers of Christ. Some of the most Christ-centered Christian leaders today are Calvinists. Just because you don’t claim the Arminian name or some other name for your belief system, does not mean you are more spiritual than us. It just means there wasn’t enough of you who believed similarly enough for someone to classify your ideas as Johnism or some other term. (I’m being a bit facetious in that last sentence, sorry about that.) Again I stress that election and predestination, all of that happens behind the scenes and it is all done in accordance with the fact that God saw Christ as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Central to all God does is the sacrifice of Christ. This is why 5 point Calvinists claim Christ died only for the elect. All the graces of election and perseverance and predestination and regeneration all flow from the Cross, and are applied to all who are the true intended beneficiaries of Christ’s sacrifice. Calvinism is sometimes called the doctrines of grace and Grace is purchased by Christ on the cross.
4) Regarding your assertions concerning “whosoever will” in John 3:16, I would encourage you to look at my post entitled: “‘Whosoever Will’ and Calvinism”. Basically your understanding is misguided. The verse simply says: everyone who believes will be saved, but it doesn’t address how one comes to a position of belief.
5) While I’m linking to old posts, let me link to 2 which show that Regeneration preceeding faith (the point of my original post above) are historic doctrines: “Spurgeon on Regeneration and Faith” & “‘Regeneration Preceeds Faith’, a Baptist Belief”.
6) You actually address the point of my post when you quickly assert “Regeneration comes through the working of the Holy Spirit which is given to us as our Comforter after we receive Christ.” This doesn’t really address the Scripture in my original post, nor does it provide Scripture. The Spirit is at work convicting the lost and he regenerates, he also Comforts. We don’t have to assume that he only works when he actually indwells believers. In fact looking at the Biblical history as a whole the Spirit hovering above the waters preceeded the 6 day creation-work of God. The Spirit (or breath of life, same word in Hebrew) came into man, then the man became alive. In Ezekiel the dead bones become alive after the Spirit works. All of this is consistent with the understanding that spiritual deadness (Eph. 2:1ff.) is changed by the work of the spirit. Jn. 1:13 says that the new birth does not happen as a result of the will of man, or of the flesh, but comes from the will of God. 1 John 5:1a says that if someone believes, they had been born of God. The KJV is not clear there, but the Greek tense is perfect. In other words, the birth preceeded the faith.
7) Now you said the following:
Where’s the Scripture? This seems like man-made reasoning here. You’re arguing on the basis of perceived experience. Some people just believe so it must follow that they didn’t need to have faith imputed first. But what does Scripture say? Those people were dead. They were in the flesh, and so could not please God (Rom. 8:7-8). Further, faith pleases God and without faith we can’t please God. So these people did not have faith, could not please God and were dead. More than that, Scripture asserts that faith is a gift from God (Acts 3:16, 1 Pet. 1:21, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, Acts 15:9, Acts 18:27, 1 Tim. 1:14). Why should we assume that the faith just arises from them naturally without aid of the Spirit?
8] You mention that faith comes by hearing. Yes you can’t believe in nothing. You must believe in the Gospel word about Christ. This proves that no one can believe apart from the gospel message of Christ. And the Spirit exalts Christ. But this does not tell us exactly how a person can believe. It says without the preaching of preachers, and the hearing of their message, faith won’t come. The Bible speaks of Satan blinding the lost lest they should see the light of the Gospel (2 Cor. 4:4-6). Some are in the snares of the devil (2 Tim. 2:24-26). And to the unbelieving the Gospel preached is either foolishness or a stumbling block (1 Cor. 1). In 1 Cor. 1 it is those who are “called” to whom the preached Gospel is the power of God to salvation [“called” in that passage cannot be referring to the Gospel message preached since only the called respond to that message but the others reject that same message which both groups heard]. And Jn. 8:47 & Jn. 10:26 both teach that being “of God” or being “of Jesus’ flock” is a prerequisite to truly hearing the message or believing the Gospel.
9) In your debate with Seth, you mention Rom. 8:28-30 claiming God predestines only those who he foreknows will believe. In responding to that, for sake of time, let me point you to this post of mine which links to another good work on this topic.
10) Regarding your 1 Thess. 1:4 argument, it is a little unclear. I think you are saying that we can know people’s election because of their faith so in other words, election is based on people’s faith. I don’t think the passage teaches that. It is Paul saying he knows they are elect because of the demonstration of Spiritual power in a supernatural response to their preaching and obvious growth wrought by the Spirit. It is dealing with how we know people are elect. This is the same as how we know peole are saved. “By their fruits ye shall know them”.
Now you must also deal with all the election passages. And a good one is 2 Thess. 2:13. What’s interesting with that passage is if you back up a few verses you see that some people reject the truth and will be deluded further and condemned. Then Paul contrasts that group of people with the Thessalonians and points out the difference. It is not that the Thessalonians received the truth and were obedient. No the difference is, let me quote it: “But we ought always to give thanks to god for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.” The difference is God chose them “to be saved”.
Further it is very interesting in chapter 1:3 of 2 Thess. that Paul gives thanks to God “because [the Thessalonian’s] faith is growing abundantly”. Now why should we thank God for people’s faith? If God has nothing to do with giving us faith and we don’t need to have faith imparted, why thank God for someone else’s faith?
11) I better close, so let me just take issue with one final comment of yours addressed to Seth:
You haven’t told us why it is dangerous, really. And you are setting it up that Calvinists don’t study the Bible they just study doctrine or theology or something. I hope the above points reveal that I am studying the “pure word of God”. Calvnist’s respect the Bible greatly and really believe they are “rightly dividing the word of truth”. In truth the 5 points of Calvinism are foudn throughout Scripture and in many diverse places in the Word. It is no man-made philosophy. Many of its adherents had no connections with Calvin or any reason to uphold him at all. Instead they generally agreed, based on serious study of the Word, that the general truths of the system of Calvinism represent the overall teaching of the Bible.
I’ve resoponded to your comments here, and welcome further interaction, but I agree this can become long and tedious. I’ve written other posts on the subject before and you are welcome to interact with those if you’d like. I am going to put in a response to your comment on my fresh post mentioned above also.
Thanks for the interaction.
Blessings in Christ,
Bob Hayton
Bob,
Because you have so graciously and detailedly responded, in all due respect, I will comment. Atleast on “regeneration”. As I have stated before, I appreciate the welcome to openly express an opposing perspective, however, it is evident that your site takes a hard stand on the foundation of Calvinism. We both agree that it could take much of our time and effort in the challenge.
I did read your post on “regeneration”. There is much opinion, speculation and scripture taken out of context.
This particular passage helps us to “see clearly” the process of “regeneration”.
Tts 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tts 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tts 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tts 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tts 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
breakdown:
we were sometimes disobedient, decieved etc..
But “after” the kindness and love of God
“our Savior” appeared.
After what? The kindness and love of God,
Whom gave us who? Our Savior.
…according to His mercy “he saved us”.
according to whose mercy? Our Savior(Christ).
How? by the washing of regeneration… and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
Who renews us? The Holy Ghost.
Which He(God) shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ. Shed what? “washing of regeneration and renewing” …which is of who? The Holy Ghost.
Through Who?
Jesus Christ our Savior.
Who is? “Our Savior”..the one who saves!
That being justified by His grace,..by whose grace? “Our Saviors grace”. That we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (should- meaning “shall” or have the expectation or probability of).
Hence, “Regeneration” is given by Christ, through the Holy Ghost.
Here’s my question. In a Calvanistic point of view,…what part does Jesus Christ play in the Salvation process?
Bob, I am going to ask you to respect me in one area. According to John 1…Jesus is THE WORD that became flesh and dwelt among us. He is the Word manifested. You alluded to the fact that when one uses scripture to confirm a point, it’s like a pit-bull attack. I must say I was offended for Christ. Of course we should use the scriptures to confirm the Word of God. How else does one know the truth?
I would go down the list and sift through all your other points however it will take much time.
The dangerous part of Calvinism lies in “Election” without Christ. Jeshua means “salvation”.
Again Bob,
Calvinism has been around for a long time. It’s a “rudiment”…what did Paul say? I did not come to preach the philosophies of men, the rudiments of this world or the traditions of men, I came to preach the power of the cross. What power does the cross have if this rudiment(first principal) suggests that we are “elected” first?
I do not agree that the general truths of the system of Calvinism represent the overall teaching of the Bible. I do agree however, the the general truths of Calvinism helped in reforming certain views of Catholocism.
Blessings to you In Christ,
C.Hartline
I worked nights over this weekend so I’ll respond to your comment as soon as I can. Blessings.
Wow, very cool comments! Even if heated at times. I enjoyed reading all your comments!
Forgive me jumping in late in the game, but here are my 2-cents worth (may be all they’re worth! :))
Have we considered the fact that the Bible is clear that *both* faith AND repentance are gifts? This was a mind-blowing realization for me several years ago. So if Rom. 10:17 says that “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God”, then why isn’t *everyone saved* upon hearing the word of God? And that is where we join another age-old debate: which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Salvation or regeneration? John 6:44, 65 makes it crystal clear that regeneration comes first: no one comes to Christ (i.e., for salvation) unless the Father draws him first.
I was a rebellious child, yet one day I felt to my knees in desperation, afraid I was going to be a terrible mother and begging for God’s help to change me. Did *I* will that repentance? After my transformation, I was left in awe (on my knees) at what God did, and I was left sobbing “WHY ME? I did not deserve this!” At first the answer came, “Because I repented”. Cool. But only a few times of hearing myself say that, was enough to make me scared. I soon found myself running back to God saying “Oh Lord, let me not rely on myself for repentance or I will blow that too!!!” Yikes!
A *fabulous* book of prayers by Puritans says it well (called “Valley of Vision”), one man wrote something like “I repent of my repentance” – ugh, I can’t even get that right! Thank goodness it’s a gift and not left to me!!! (2 Tim. 2:25, among many others).
No, I don’t think it’s a man-made philosophy. There’s too much in the Bible supporting it, and too many theologians throughout time believing it as well (it didn’t start with Calvin – we can go back to Luther, Augustine, and Paul…) I think the bigger problem is reconciling what the Bible says on it with the other verses throughout the Bible that say “Repent!” and “Come!” 🙂 and also reconciling that the Bible is clear that each one of us is accountable for our own lives.
I believe that is a mystery – how we can be accountable for our sin when, before we become Christians, even “all our righteousness is as filthy rags” (Is. 64:6). And yet the Bible says we are. I was blind, God made me see, yet I am accountable for my sin. The best explanation of how God predestines is that “while God scoops some out of the miry clay, he does not COERCE others to sin, people do *that* of their own free will.” It may not seem that they’re free, but it takes “thinking out of the box” to understand that logically speaking, if God doesn’t force us to sin, we are free to do as we please, and “we please” to do evil. If we didn’t, then why need Christ? If we can “choose” good and “choose” righteousness, then have within us the power to reach God on our own.
Please don’t misunderstand me, I hope I don’t sound combattive! But I must turn the tables here. To me, even the “possibility” of being able to reach God on our own – that’s what seems to me to be dangerous, because there would be even a *remote* possibility (or temptation) to rely on myself… But my aim (and God’s aim) is for “self” to be crucified, is it not? Then I must fling myself at at the cross. If “self” threatens to lurk around any corner, I must run!
So, the Bible says “Repent!” and yet says it’s a gift and the Father must draw us first (yet we’re accountable to boot!) Believe it or not, I think the Bible, and God, are big enough to reconcile this “seeming” conflict – it obviously does, because it’s there! But can we? And still be true to God’s word without throwing *any* of it out?
Hey, by the way C. Hartline, I’m glad you’re here, iron sharpens iron!!! 🙂 I’ve enjoyed reading your stuff…
Bob,
You were so gracious and considerate in commenting on many points. Thank you. I thought I would respond on a few, though we both admitted this may be quite a challenge.
Bob Commented:
You actually address the point of my post when you quickly assert “Regeneration comes through the working of the Holy Spirit which is given to us as our Comforter after we receive Christ.†This doesn’t really address the Scripture in my original post, nor does it provide Scripture. The Spirit is at work convicting the lost and he regenerates, he also Comforts. We don’t have to assume that he only works when he actually indwells believers. In fact looking at the Biblical history as a whole the Spirit hovering above the waters preceeded the 6 day creation-work of God. The Spirit (or breath of life, same word in Hebrew) came into man, then the man became alive. In Ezekiel the dead bones become alive after the Spirit works. All of this is consistent with the understanding that spiritual deadness (Eph. 2:1ff.) is changed by the work of the spirit.
C. Hartline Responded:
In ref. to Eph. 2:1 Bob, go a little further down in scripture: Eph 2:5, Even when we were “dead in sins†, hath quickened us “together with Christâ€
Quicken- syzÅopoieÅ 1) to make one alive together a) of Christians, with Christ
Eph 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Where is the “imputed faith†first?
Bob Commented:
“Jn. 1:13 says that the new birth does not happen as a result of the will of man, or of the flesh, but comes from the will of God. 1 John 5:1a says that if someone believes, they had been born of God. The KJV is not clear there, but the Greek tense is perfect. In other words, the birth preceeded the faith.â€
C.Hartline responded
Bob, read 1:12 first!
Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Note: “as many as received himâ€, to them (to who?)..to those who “received himâ€, gave He power to become the sons of God. He gave those who “received him†power.
In Jhn 1:13 conclusion:
Jhn 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God
We can only be born of the spirit by the Power that God gives us. When we received Him.(as condition).
The Power that was given to us is not of blood and flesh or conjured by the will of man…but this power can only be given by God, after we receive Him!
Bob Commented:
“1 John 5:1a says that if someone believes, they had been born of God. The KJV is not clear there, but the Greek tense is perfect. In other words, the birth preceeded the faith.â€
C. Harline responded:
1Jo 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jo 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jo 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
Everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him: Being born of God also has these two effects. It is assumed that we will love God (Him who begot us), because we are born again into His family. But it is also assumed that we will love others who are begotten of Him – our brothers and sisters in Christ.
This is the common ground of Christians – not race, not class, not culture, not language, nor any other thing except for a common birth in Jesus Christ, and the common Lordship of Jesus.
Again, “whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ†IS born of God. (Condition).
Whosoever believeth!
Not whosoever is imputed faith to believe that Jesus…
Bob Commented
“Where’s the Scripture? This seems like man-made reasoning here. You’re arguing on the basis of perceived experience. Some people just believe so it must follow that they didn’t need to have faith imputed first. But what does Scripture say? “Those people were dead. They were in the flesh, and so could not please God (Rom. 8:7-8). “
In ref. to C, Hartlines comment:
Just because we are spiritually dead in our sins …meaning…if we continue to sin, it will lead us to eternal death with no hope of Salvation does not necessarily mean we are so dead that we can’t think, make choices, reason, decide, or even believe in something. Many people have faith or believe and don’t need to be imputed “faith†first.
C.Hartline responded
Above, I was referring to “faith†not “walking in the Spiritâ€.
However, in ref. to “those people were dead 
In ref. to your comment Bob: But what does Scripture say? “Those people were dead. They were in the flesh, and so could not please God (Rom. 8:7-8). “
Rom 8 in general is referring to those who walk in the flesh vs those who walk in the Spirit.
Opening scripture:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Again read further
Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
No, when we walk in the lusts of the flesh we do not please God. We need to walk in the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to please God. Be overcomers!
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. The Spirit is life to us because of what? Righteousness. In otherwords we can walk in righteousness because we now can walk in the Spirit. The Lusts of the Flesh is dead because of sin. By our own will we can not overcome the flesh. Only by the Spirit!
“If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.†In other words if we do not have the Spirit of Christ, we do not belong to himâ€!
read on…
Rom 8:12
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Conclusion: For as many as are “led of the Spiritâ€
Where is “imputed faith†in these scriptures?
Side note:
Regeneration Grk paliggenesia means:
1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death.
Doesn’t Jesus Christ our Savior give us this new life?
Baptism means- We are dead with Christ, we are raised with Christ.
Blessings to you Bob
Thanks again for your time,
C.Hartline
CDJ- great reading your stuff too…esp, your comment: “But my aim (and God’s aim) is for “self†to be crucified, is it not? Then I must fling myself at at the cross. If “self†threatens to lurk around any corner, I must run! So, the Bible says “Repent!†and yet says it’s a gift and the Father must draw us first (yet we’re accountable to boot!)
I agree!
It’s His kindness that leads us to repentence!
Blessings to you!
C. Hartline
Ps. CDJ What scripture refers to repentence as a gift? I can’t find it in my version.
Hello C. Hartline!
Well, in addition to 2 Tim. 2:25 above, the following also use the same phrase “…grant them repentance” (there may be more, but I did a quick search in the NT alone because I’ve seen it before):
Acts 5:31
Acts 11:18
2 Cor. 7:9
In my understanding (and my experience), repentance and faith are flip sides of the same coin – “you can tell them apart, but you can’t separate them” (not my quote, someone else’s). So it makes sense that if faith is a gift, then repentance is a gift (although I didn’t make that connection until very recently), both covered in the gift of grace…
And I like the fact that not only do we see many examples of this happening throughout history (Augustine exclaiming that he felt “yanked” into salvation) and in our own lives (how many people have stated the same kind of conversion experience), we have some nice examples of this in the Bible – Paul being the biggest. Murderer, could we say “serial killer” – yet God crashed into his life and intervened, “yanking” him out of his blindness. Was it Paul who willed to believe? Or did God, as John 6:44 & 65 indicate, pull Paul to him first, making Paul *able* to believe?
Personally, from all the biblical evidence, Paul seemed pretty intent on his ways, so I find it easier to believe that God “drew” them first, regenerating their hearts, so that *then* they could believe. I have a harder time believing that they came on their own apart from the regenerating work of God – so I believe in the “monergistic” work of God, and not the “synergistic” work of God and man working together for their salvation. If I worked at all toward my salvation, then I would sure be afraid I could just as easily lose it…
When I read these blogs, I keep coming back in my mind to what I believe is the main issue: how to reconcile 2 *seeming* contradictions. The Bible clearly states both the Sovereignty of God and that he does as he pleases, as well as the fact that we have responsibility and the Bible consistently begs us to “Come” and “repent” (despite the fact the Bible is clear that repentance and faith are gifts).
So for me the crux is not *which* one is true, but if the Bible has both, then how to *reconcile* them. This is not the only topic that has this problem, another problematic topic that trips many up these days is the topic of “faith healing”. I think that how we handle that topic is the same way we should handle the topic of predestination, namely, look at all the verses and put them into context with each other. So, for example, if someone says to me (oh, and they did when my nephew died) “the Bible says if I have enough faith, he will be healed” and they give me the verses for it. What about the verses that say “if we pray *according to his will*”? or the ones that say we must abide in him, we must obey him? what about Jesus himself in the garden of Gethsemane whose will was clearly different than his Father’s (Matt. 26:36 and on) – did Jesus not have enough faith? Of course he did! But he submitted his will to his father’s. So the verse that says “ask and it shall be done for them” (Matt. 18:19 and many others) – Jesus asked, was it done for him? I think this is the biggest example that flies in the face of those who believe that if they “have enough faith”, it will be done for them – the example of Jesus himself. THAT should be a red flag that we need to go back to the other verses and begin to search the rest of the Bible to put them in context of scripture as a whole.
I believe the same thing can be done with the verses on free will – yes, there are many, but overall, can’t we say that just because the Bible says “Repent!”, that does *not* mean that God is not enabling them to do so first? Who’s will is first in the act of salvation, God’s will or mine? 1 John 4:19 says that we love him because he first loved us… What I see often in the Bible is that it will deal with a subject in one spot and clarify it in another. So when it says “repent”, that does not, in and of itself, dictate that our will comes first. I do not know who the elect are, but I *do* know that the Bible gives me the methodology for how to find them – tell anybody I can about the gospel! (Rom. 10:17) – once they hear it, people will either reject it or believe it, and *if* someone believes, it will be the work of the Holy Spirit working through the scripture I have told them, by regenerating them – all unseen to my eyes.
Yes, I can understand how anyone would think that the doctrine of predestination could be dangerous, if it led to *not* telling the gospel, or to judging who’s the “elect” (“hyper-calvinism”) – but a person who goes deeper than that will know through sheer hearsay and experience (and the Bible!) that even if someone rejects what I tell them now, they may not reject what someone else says later in their life. I can never judge who will be saved. In fact, I have the most affinity toward those who scream the loudest against me! Those whom others might check off saying “That person is definitely lost” – I say hogwash! 🙂 I may not be the one they listen to, but I trust the word “will not return void” and may be planted as a seed for someone else to reap…
Hopefully I wrote with some clarity and not too much rambling, I’m really working on how to say things concisely with fewer words – I’m not good at that yet! 🙂
I apologize to everyone that the comments aren’t numbered. It would be easy to refer to comment #…
Also you guys don’t have easy access to comment links either, where you can link to a comment. I have requested these features to be added to this theme I have, but so far they haven’t.
Anyways, I also should apologize for not responding. I have a newborn and have a lot going on right now, and when I do sit down to respond it takes much of my time. Plus sometimes others respond on my behalf, so that limits the urgency level I need to respond.
With all that said, let me start responding again to the comments here. With this comment I’ll just focus on C. Hartline’s 11/3 comment. (Read it here).
If you don’t mind, I’ll use Cindy rather than C. Hartline (per your email, that is your name). It is easier…
So Cindy, thanks again for commenting and I do welcome opposing opinions. And I hope my comments will mirror yours in the grace and Christ-like character of them.
Now I do have to point out that it would be helpful if you would point out some examples or do something to try to prove your point when you say something so dismissive as this:
You discuss Titus 3 as a description of the “process of regeneration”. But you conclude: “Hence, ‘Regeneration’ is given by Christ, through the Holy Ghost”. I would emphatically agree. But this is not the process of regeneration as mentioned in my article here (above all the comments here). There I am dealing with the order of regeneration, reception and faith. The order salutis or order of salvation. What comes first faith or regeneration? That is the issue. Titus 3 doesn’t really deal with that at all, it just links regeneration to Christ’s work on the cross. And I uphold that link, we can only be regenerated because of Christ’s work on the cross.
You ask a question which I am thrilled to answer. You ask:
Let me answer that Jesus is everything to Salvation. Without a Savior we have no salvation. Without Christ’s cross-work we have no hope. Now as to the “process”, I think you are referring to what happens in the life of an unbeliever to change him from being dead in his sins to being alive in Christ, what it is that results in a converted believer in Christ.
The Calvinist answer would be God opens the heart and mind of the unbeliever, who hitherto has been blinded by Satan and entrapped in his sins, having no desire to please God–being unable to because of his sin. God opens his heart to see the light of the knowledge of the glory of Christ in the gospel. The person then gloriosly responds and accepts Christ as His Lord and Savior believing him and trusting him alone for the glorious salvation which Christ so lovingly offers. Jesus then saves the man, progressively using the Spirit to transform the man more and more into the new creation in Christ he has been called to be.
The “opening of the heart” above is God’s work of regeneration. Before the gospel was confusing or threatening, but all of a sudden, it becomes glorious, after the regerating work of God. Such regeneration immediately results in saving faith–that very faith being a gift of God.
Now let me explain the “pit bull” analogy. By no means do I intend to disrespect Scripture. Jesus is the Word. But what often is done in debating is for someone to ignore many verses given, only to turn around and offer his own proof texts. We need to understand all of Scripture will be harmonious. We can’t just cling to a few verses purposely ignoring passages which would be problematic to our view. It’s not enough to just provide some proof texts for your view, you must interact with all the texts in the debate. Let me know if I’ve skipped some you are bringing up, but as far as I can tell, the Scripture presented so far fits ably with my view. That is what I’m getting at with the “verse pitting” comments. For those not aware of where that came from, it comes from this post, which is a partial response to Cindy’s comments in this post so far.
Cindy, I still am at a loss to see how Calvinism asserts “election without Christ”. We don’t. Christ is central to salvation. God elected a people to be saved, and for these people God sent Christ into the world to redeem them. How is this election apart from Christ. Ephesians even says we are elect in Him.
I don’t see you really dealing with the election teaching in Scripture. There are multiple verses which teach God chooses people to be saved. God calls some to be saved, draws some to be saved. This is an important teaching, but of course Jesus died so that salvation is possible at all. And Jesus’ death purchases all the blessings we have in election and regeneration — anything good from God’s hand is purchased on the cross because of Jesus’ sacrifice.
Also, election is said to happen before the world began, but Jesus has been the Lamb of God slain before the foundation o fthe world. So God didn’t elect first and then later send Chist to the cross as an afterthought. In God’s planning out His redemptive work, God knew that He would offer Jesus to die, and in light of this he chose a group of people to be given to Christ as His people (Jn. 17:6 and the whole of Jn. 17).
Now about Calvinism being a “tradition of men”, first off “rudiment” means “elementary thing”. Now the question is if it is a worldly thing or not. Is it a mere philosophy of men a tradition of men. 2 Thess. 2:15 and 1 Cor. 11:2 with other verses show traditions are not bad in themselves. But are they Biblical or Christian or worldly? That is the question.
Calvinism originated with godly men in the church. Its teachings are loaded with Scripture and it attempts to honestly uphold all of Scripture. My post linked above deals with the issue that you can’t just debunk Calvinism because it is a man-made idea. All attempts to harmonize all of Scripture’s teachings are man-made attempts to uphold the true doctrine of Scritpure.
I still think you are misunderstanding Calvinism, by no means does it undercut the power of the cross, indeed it exalts the cross. It just is honest with many other verse in the Bible which deal with God’s work in election and regeneration. Again, it is kind of a behind the scenes look at what happens when one gets saved. And the only reason it bothers to look into the nitty gritty details is because of the clear teaching of Scripture. Sadly, many just ignore the very passages of Scritpure which Calvinists take pains to interpret.
That’s response #1, and I’ll get on to the other responses in the near future, hopefully.
Blessings from the cross,
Bob Hayton
Here is a list I’ve been keeping which may be helpful here. Like CDJ, realizing that both faith and repentance were gifts of God did wonders to shape my theology. And incidentally Cindy (C. Hartline), when I first came to believe in Calvinism, my Bible of choice was the KJV.
So here’s the list (note I’m sure not every reference here is equally clear, nor will they all stand scrutiny–i.e. some of them I may have stretched a little or didn’t quite get it right when I first added it to the list. But a good many of the texts are rock solid, and together they present an air-tight case. Also some of these are more convincing when viewed from the Greek. An English preposition like “by” or “in” can be more clear in the Greek.):
Verses which teach that faith is a gift.
Acts 3:16
1 Pet. 1:21
Phil. 1:29
Rom. 12:3
Acts 15:9
Acts 18:27
1 Tim. 1:14
1 Cor. 3:5
2 Thess. 1:3
Eph. 1:19-20
1 Pet. 1:5
2 Pet. 1:1
Verses which teach that repentance is a gift.
2 Tim. 2:25
Acts 11:18
Acts 5:31
Rom. 2:4
Verses which teach that conversion is a gift.
Jn. 6:64-65 (with vs 44 too)
Acts 16:14
James 1:18
Eph. 2:8-9
Jn. 1:13
Matt. 11:27
2 Cor. 4:3-6
2 Tim. 1:9
Phil. 1:6
Verses which state that God accomplishes the new birth (no human met conditions in view):
1 Pt. 1:3
Jam. 1:18
Jn. 1:13
1 Jn. 5:1
Jn. 3:6
Col. 2:13
Eph. 2:5
Verses which states that belief depends on whether one is elect or not:
Jn. 10:26 (with vs. 25 & 27, & 14-16)
Acts 13:48
Eph. 1:3-12
Rom. 8:28-33
2 Tim. 1:9-10
Jn. 8:43, 45-47
Bob, I love that you pointed out “people to be given to Christ as His people”. I just learned that recently – someone pointed out to me that there is reciprocal giving going on here between the Father and Son that I had never known about before. I love that chapter (the high priestly prayer), not only because of what it means for me personally that Christ is interceding for me in heaven, but that I (and the “church”) are given as a bride to Christ and in return, he gives us back to God as a gift – man, this gift giving thing between God, Jesus, and us is REALLY COOL!!! So much deeper than I ever realized… I always thought it was God and Jesus giving to US, and that in return, we were to “sacrifice” our “self” (my flesh didn’t get too excited about *my* part in all this), but I had no idea that God and Jesus gave to each other, and that *I* am that gift. Yet again, I am brought to my knees, sobbing, in humility, not understanding WHY God would do this, I don’t deserve it! (My head knows, yes, but I don’t think I’ll ever fully understand it with my heart – that level of love is such a mystery!)
Thanks for taking time out,
DJ
CDJ,
Thanks again for coming here and commenting. You have a more down to earth, simple take than I do, I think. Sometimes its how you say it not what you say that helps people.
Anyways, I’m enjoying your input and discussion.
Thanks, that means a lot, more than you could ever know…
Ok, 2 questions (after tonight’s Precepts study in Romans, where my teacher guided us into what the words “called” and “chosen” meant and stated “God does not want anyone to perish”):
1) If God predestines who will be saved, then how can we say in the same breath that he doesn’t want anyone to perish? He may not *want* them to perish, but the action of the potter making some jars to keep and some throw seems to contradict the emotion and statement of not wanting any to perish.
2) Since I brought up the potter, how do we reconcile that parable with the one we discussed tonight in my class about the wedding banquet in Matt. 22, where the man chose not to put on the clothes while others *did* chose to come *and* to put on the clothes? They seem to say the exact opposite points.
I had it all worked out before this class, but then Precepts threw in the wedding banquet parable and my teacher had a different take on it than I have read (mentioning as a side note about God not wanting any to perish), and now I remember the parable of the potter…
Bob,
Thank you again for your gracious time. I did take the time to read all the scriptures you mentioned above in ref. to faith being a “gift”. I don’t see faith referred to as a gift in any of these scriptures.
In context of scriptures
Acts 3:16 The Lame man had faith in Jesus’
name,
1 Pet. 1:21 who by Jesus we now can believe
and have faith in God
Phil. 1:29 strive together for the faith of the Gospel for unto us the Gospel is given to us, on behalf of Christ, not only to believe, but also to suffer for His sake
Rom. 12:3 Present our bodies as a living sacrifice, be transformed by the renewing of our mind, that we may prove what is the will of God, think not highly of ourselves but soberly, as God hath dealt every man the measure of faith as a member of one body, however not the same office.
Acts 15:9 God which know their hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, as He did to us. Purifying their hearts by faith meaning
(the Gentiles)
1 Tim. 1:14 The Lord enabled Paul and counted him faithful. His grace is abundant with faith and Love
1 Cor. 3:5 Carnal Corinthians had strife and divisions saying “I am of Paul, I am of Apollos. Who are Paul and Apollos? Ministers whom you believed even as the Lord gave every man…â€to believeâ€
2 Thess. 1:3 your faith is growing exceedingly
Eph. 1:19-20 what is the exceeding greatness to us who believe
1 Pet. 1:5 we have a lively hope by the resurrection of jesus…we are kept by the power of God through faith unto Salvation
2 Pet. 1:1 to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ
I did not find repentence given “as a gift” either. Though I do believe that the opportunity to repent by His grace is a great gift. The Gentiles were given the opportunity as well. Baptism originally came from the Jews, Hence when John the Baptist came saying “repent and be baptised” …they knew exactly what he meant.
We also must Repent and be baptised. Die with Christ, raise with Christ…”to live”.
I think it would be best for me to graciously slip out of this site. I don’t have the time that is needed to sift all of this out.
So Calvinists believe that God elects certain people, imputes them with faith so they can believe in Jesus?
According to this process than faith would have to be what regenerates, however
Regeneration Grk paliggenesia means:
1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death.
Doesn’t Jesus Christ our Savior give us this new life?
Baptism means- We are dead with Christ, we are raised with Christ.
I don’t believe “Imputed faith” is what gives us new life. It’s Christ and the Holy Spririt that does.
The Father’s greatest gift to us is His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him will not perish but have everlasting life!
This is the part that disturbes me about this doctrine.
Bob, how would you feel if God elected only one of your children and not the others? Is this the kind of God we serve? This type of thinking is the fruit of Extreme Calvinism.
Where did this “imputed faith” concept come from?
Apparently, the Roman Catholic Church was telling people “when” to baptize their babies! Part of Calvin’s reform incl. that God would give people faith so that when they are ready they will get baptised! I think the “imputed faith” to the point of being “elected for salvation” in extreme Calvanism has gone too far. Why dabble in this rudiment at all. Isnt Christ enough?
Again, I exhort you to “watch” and be careful not to take Calvinism too far.
Sincerely in Him,
C. Hartline
Bob,
Cindy may have bowed out (understandably so), but I would still like an answer to her questions particularly on the Greek definition of “regeneration”. I am taking a Precepts class (Romans!) and last night we started getting into Romans 9. Before my “revival”, I believed regeneration was at the time of conversion (at age 7 for me), like the Vine’s dictionary says (that she basically quoted above). But after my revival, I believe that regeneration occurs before salvation. Given the Greek meaning of it above, how do you reconcile that?
Cindy,
If you still see this, thank you for coming online and taking the time! I know it’s been timecomsuming. I’ll be laying off a bit too. Bob has a young baby I see, too, so… (by the way Bob, congratulations!) In regards to these things as being “gifts”, I know that at least the reason why I’m saying that is because of the terminology used in these verses “…grant them repentance” or as in 1 Tim. 1:14 which you quoted above “the Lord *enabled* Paul…” If regeneration means that moment of salvation in Greek (I’m curious to find out what Bob and others say on this), then I will have to use another word to describe those moments of awakening *before* we actually accept Christ. So we believe the order goes like this:
Regeneration (or whatever the new word is I’m going to use) – those times before accept Christ when we feel the Holy Spirit changing our minds, moving inside us (we may say something like, “Well, I hadn’t thought of that before,” or “I didn’t know that, maybe I was wrong and this isn’t as I had thought” and the Holy Spirit (HS) gets us to PONDER these things. What we mean, then, is that the HS is “stirring” us up.
Salvation, or justification – that moment we accept Christ and are *saved*. Phil. 1:29 is here again a good example of the verbiage used “…granted to you… not only to believe, but suffer..” A measure of faith is given here (in order to accept him), but it is by no means complete! Thus our need for the next step:
Sanctification – Rom. 1:17 “righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith”, so our faith grows and grows, thanks to him who helps us and promises to “keep” or “guard” us (1 Tim. 1:12), otherwise I would wander away.
So, we believe that we cannot come to him but that he draws us first (stirs us up), we cannot repent without him, be saved without him, have faith without him or grow without him. We believe nothing can be done on our own apart him, through his strength, for I am too weak, and before salvation, too dead in sin (not just lost) to see my need without his help.
Before regeneration/salvation, I could not choose him, BUT, now that I’m a new creature, NOW I CAN understand my need! Please remember that some of the above verses you listed were talking about the faith of *believers* not unbelievers. That makes a huge difference, because the call to believers regarding faith is to endurance – we *still* cannot do it on our own, for sure, but at least we can now see our need for him. but the *imploring* of non-believers to repent and believe is to salvation – some will be stirred unto salvation, some will not. It is not the choice of the “implorer” (i.e., John the Baptist, prophets, etc.) to choose who to implore (I have just learned this past week that THAT is extreme calvinism! wow), for he/she cannot know who God will stir unto salvation. They can only get the message out!!! 🙂
Hopefully we can all agree that our hearts are usually stirred before salvation and that is God who is doing it, if even we can’t agree on who’s doing the choosing. I have a feeling you might saw the “drawing” is done for everyone (that “built-in need” for reconciliation with God), but Matt. makes it clear that many are called, few are chosen, and I’d still rather bank my life on God saving me than left up to chance on whether or not I might choose salvation myself, especially considering how “dead I am in my tresspasses”. Neither one is a pretty picture, I know… At least I have more security that if it was God that worked in me and saved me, then I can trust him that he will also never allow me to permanently fall away (he will “keep” me until the end…)
Well, signing off – and thanks again!
DJ
I have to be short and sweet. I work nights and it is a crazy day over here.
CDJ, I’ll get to your questions in later tonight, hopefully. For now, you may be benefited by this article: “Are there 2 Wills in God? Divine Election and God’s Desire for All to Be Saved” by John Piper.
Cindy,
2 Tim. 2:25 is so clear. Paul says to act a certain way in talking to the lost, because they are trapped in the snare of the devil, and God “may perhaps” grant them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth. Notice the perhaps. They are bound by the devil, captive at his will, and God might give them repentance. He might not though. This is clearly repentance being a gift. Think grant, same thing.
Now how can repentance be a gift that may or may not be given. Do all have the opportunity to repent? Well yes, they are all called to repent by the gospel. So this gift must be more than just the opportunity to repent. Before I have repentance, I am unrepentant. God grants repentance and then I am repentant. God is the acting one, not us.
You act like Scripture doesn’t teach that God elects people to salvation, chooses some to be saved. But this is precisely what it says:
2 Thess. 2:13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation”
1 Thess. 5:9 “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” (The word for “appointed” means “destined” and refers to God’s election of us).
See also Eph. 1:4-12.
We’re speaking past each other, I think. You aren’t understanding what I’m really saying. I’ll have to respond in more depth later.
Blessings in Christ,
bob
Bob,
You don’t have to respond. You have a baby…that’s your first calling for now. That’s why I didnt want to make it hard for you either. I have studied Calvinism in depth! I have been a Biblical teacher for 25 years. It really is very clear to me what Calvinists believe. I am reluctant to say this, however I must. Not toward you personally however for the sake of Biblical truth…many scriptures are taken out of context to support the Calvinistic perspective. I think that is dangerous.
example: 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
breakdown, “chosen you to salvation” how? through sancitification of the Spirit, how? by belief of the truth. Who believes the truth and is sanctified? Those who “believe”.
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
How did He call us? “By the Gospel”(hearing, believing). What did this calling do? Helped us to obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus. Side note: What is His glory?
His presence in us. Christ in us the hope of glory!
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Who puts on the brestplate of faith and Love?
We do. Who puts on a helmet , hope of Salvation? we do. It’s just a reminder of what was given to us.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
To obtain Salvation by who? By Jesus Christ!
CDJ- “regeneration” Is Salvation. When we become born again, that new creature IN Christ Jesus.
The Father draws the lost by His presence. How?
Through His Messengers, Pastors, Apostles, Evangelists, Teachers, Prophets
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The problem lies with #1) we are total so dead we can’t respond!
We aren’t so dead that we can’t respond. We are Spiritually dead and not ‘born again”
Simply “faith comes by hearing”. There really isnt a great mystery to “faith”.
We are in the midst of helping a church that split over Calvinism. It got so extreme that children were coming home saying that they werent chosen by God. Skits were being acted in in VBS where one child was chosen over another. A woman was found crying in a Bible study saying; “I have been praying for my two Sons for years, do you mean to tell me that God may not have elected them?”. 90% of the teens, who were once core kids on the worship team have left the church. Most are in a very bad state: drugs, sexual activity, lesbianism, worse than the prodigal. When you ask them what happened, they respond on this note; ” I thought I was elected until I started sinning, than I just thought I’m probably not Elected otherwise I wouldnt be doing some things, so I thought, I guess I’m not chosen”. This is what Extreme Calvinism does. Their teacher is a five point Calvinist on a “agenda”. I met with him and he has testified to it! He also believes when these kids mess up that they are “not of us”. Sorry, I had to share this. That’s why I found myself on this site. I completely understand the Calvinistic perspective. I am learning what the possible fruit this rudiment has the potential to bear.
Blessings to all…just had to share my heart.
Bob, take it easy. Enjoy your baby…not necessary to challenge at this time.
Blessings,
C. Hartline
Oh Cindy, I agree with you, first of all, that Bob needs to take a break! I can’t tell you enough, never enough, how much I appreciate you going through this for me/us so painstakingly. THANK YOU for sharing your heart! Yes, I have heard of those situations where “Calvinism” was taken to an extreme, to the shame shame shame of that church – SHAME!
I could tell that you were versed (ha! no pun intended) on Calvinism somewhat, that’s why I enjoyed reading your stuff so much. Please know that I’m going through all your references, but it will take some time to ponder what you have said and be like a Berean :). At this point I still don’t agree with you on many points, however, it’s been so long since I believed in free will the way some do, and at that time, I didn’t really have verses like you do to back up my claims. It’s only since my revival which led to an understanding and then belief in Calvinist points (4 or 5 pts, don’t know yet…) that verses have come crashing to the forefront. So in all fairness, I need to look at verses from both sides. That’s why your entries have been such a big help to me, you’re sharpening my “iron” :).
I don’t know if it makes you feel any better, but no need to worry about me – I share Christ because of a passion he gave me after my revival, but sharing beliefs on election with believers as a whole is something I do not usually do. I think John 16:12 is a pretty wise verse to live by for many Christians regarding many things (“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear”), as well as a verse another fellow-believer shared with me today that *really* blessed me, and it sounds like the people at this church were disobeying this in spades!
Col. 4:5-6 – Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.
I would extend that advice for how we act to “insiders” as well! Believers are at every stage in the Christian walk, and it’s either selfish, or foolish, of us to talk of the deeper things of the faith with those who are still children in the faith – a sure way to cause them to stumble and we know how God feels about that!!!
Again, I’m glad you shaerd this with us, and I’m so sorry to hear this happened – “hyper Calvinism” for sure. My teacher said it well last night – you can take both sides to the extreme, and they are both dangerous.
Oh, by the way, I just heard last night from my teacher to study “regeneration” in my Vine’s dictionary which I did – ah, I see what you’re saying (still pondering that…) So for now, it’s best I use the words “the holy spirit stirs the heart of a person” instead of regeneration. Half the struggle is using the same language!
Thanks again Cindy!
DJ
Bob,
I’m about a 1/3 of the way through Piper’s article – interesting stuff! I’ll keep plodding through…
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
If He has: “dealt to EVERY MAN the measure of FAITH” then you are saying (in your post) that every man has been regenerated and therein ALL are Elect. So what is the need for the mentioning of the Elect in scripture if ALL are already regenerated.
If we are predestined to death or life (one way or the other) then why are we all dealt a measure of faith especially if some are to be predestined to death.
I do not think you would need faith to blindly fall into the spiritual death mentioned in the Bible.