In our day, few matters divide generations more readily than music. Each age group has its own musical preferences which the others don’t get, and often can’t appreciate. For Christians, this problem is even more pronounced. The Christian’s submission to Scripture leads inevitably to ethical questions surrounding various elements of modern culture, especially music. This is complicated by the tendency of some Christians to denigrate certain music styles as intrinsically evil.
When it comes to parenting, and dealing with teenagers in particular, it would be easy to ignore the issue of music altogether. Many Christian parents just suffer with whatever music choices their children make, even if they offer an occasional frown. Not a few parents take the opposite approach, and operate like the musical police. This can raise barriers between parent and child, fostering bitterness and resentment. For most of us, we’re not exactly sure how to handle the thorny topic of music.
This is why I was intrigued by the title of a new book from Kregel Publications by Todd Stocker (with notes from his son Nathan): Infinite Playlists: How to Have Conversations [Not Conflict] with Your Kids About Music. The title gets right to the point, and when you open the front cover Stoker wastes no time in confronting the issue head on. In fact, the book is only a short 89 pages, but for many parents and teens today, a shorter book may have a better chance at being picked up and read. Whatever the case, even in these few short pages the book more than adequately covers the problem at hand.
Todd Stocker starts out by describing his love for music and how his Christian faith made him reevaluate his musical choices. His son Nathan’s affinity for hard rock brought him to the place where he had to start working through what music he’d allow his children to tune in to. The book moves on to describe music as a gift from God, but a gift that has been distorted by fallen man. There is a spiritual battle going on over music, and recognizing music’s ability to capture our souls with wonder should help us approach the topic soberly. Make no mistake, however, Stoker is not about a kill joy approach to music. “God never intended Christians to live cloistered.” (pg. 25)
Stocker goes on to trace the emotional, physical and spiritual impact of music, often quoting secular experts and personal experiences to add flavor. He explores various musical genres, and the question of Christian vs. secular music. He understands that the attitude and ethos created by the song conveys some meaning, but ultimately the lyrics make the predominant difference. Yet “God is not in one thing and not in the other”, and so even secular music can be redeemed for His purposes.
The meat of the book comes in his discussion of the working guidelines he’s come up with for his family. They are:
- What do the lyrics say?
- What picture does the song paint?
- What is the mood or feel of the song?
- Will the song cause others to stumble?
- Who is the artist or group?
Stocker is careful to convey that a firm, hard line is not easy to achieve. He prefers to discuss these questions with his son Nathan, and together agree on the verdict. Ultimately he has parental veto power, however. Including the children in the decision both empowers them and teaches them how to exercise discernment for themselves.
Stocker finishes the book by encouraging Christians everywhere to take the copyright laws seriously when it comes to music.
Some additional helpful features of the book include the chapter recaps, notes by 13 year old Nathan Stocker sharing his perspective on music at various points in the book, and a chapter exercise for working through the five guidelines and applying them with an actual song. The book also includes some helpful resources in the end-notes.
Before I close this review, I would want to encourage parents to pick up this book and use it as a tool in developing their own approach to how to parent their children when it comes to the arena of music. Stocker’s exhortation is worth quoting here at some length:
God has placed great importance and responsibility on your parental position within the family. Therefore, it is not OK to allow your children to listen to lyrics that could poison their souls. Think of it this way: you would never allow your children to drink gasoline even if it was their choice to do so. Neither should you let your children drink music that could cripple them forever. (pg. 58)
I can’t recommend this book more. It could perhaps have included a bit more material, but that’s the only complaint I’d have. It reads very easy, and manages to tackle a difficult topic with grace. It is immensely helpful, and definitely worth picking up at Amazon.com, or direct from Kregel Publications.
Disclaimer: This book was provided by Kregel Publications for review. I was under no obligation to offer a favorable review.
This book (and review)is rather timely for me. I have no qualms regarding any sorts of music. I believe that all musical styles can be used for the glory of God. Recently, my 9-year old son (who I swear is going on 15) started showing more interest in what he calls “cool music” – rap/hip-hop, rocky music, etc. Again, while I have no problems at all with this music, it is challenging to know how to teach him not to let the music control his attitude. Along with the “cool music” came the “I’m too cool for you” attitude. My wife and I have had to regulate his music a little more heavily than I would prefer. We do this in order to teach him that when ANY style of music causes him to sin (ie., pride, rebellion, etc) his exposure to it should be limited. Of course, that seems to have only taught him that this music is “bad” (which it certainly isn’t!) and only makes him want to listen to it all the more.
Thanks for the review. I’ll probably look into purchasing it since this is something that we are going through right now.
Glad to help, Stephen. This book will definitely be a good one to get, I think.
I was able to find this book on PaperBackSwap and it should be on its way to me this week. Thanks again for the review.
Excellent! I’m sure you’ll enjoy it.
Bob – This really hits home for all parents of teenagers, and especially for me as I am a musician and my son is as well.
I currently play and have for the last 12 years, in a gospel, bluegrass group and love it. I play multiple instruments as well as my son, in fact my son is actually more talented. God has given him tremendous gifts in his ability to play various musical instruments. We both like all sorts of music, christian and secular.
The guidelines are somewhat different for me, although all of those mentioned deserve consideration. I came from a legalistic IFB background and was taught about the evil beats that came from Africa, and if it moved your feet before your heart it was worldly. I have come to completely reject those ideas, I don’t think “beats” are evil, I could be wrong, and if I am I know God will forgive me. From our previous discussions you know I don’t care much about what men say, if you can demonstrate that “beats” are somehow wrong or evil from the scriptures I’m all ears.
My main guideline is “lyrics” if the song is saying obviously wrong and ungodly things, it is simply not allowed, I have not allowed rap in my home for this reason, I know there are some “christian” rap artists out there *sorry guys* but you make up only .003%. Also MTV was simply not allowed in my house, because of all the filth.
What I am dealing with now is my son is playing in a christian “rock” band and it the kind with the “screamers” I don’t like it at all, my son is well aware of how simplistic and unchallenging this music is and I’m hoping it is a phase. In this case the words are fine but you can’t decipher them. “An uncertain sound” I know I know, but I am attempting to do the best I can and I don’t want to stifle his creativity.
I am not sure if I’m doing exactly the right thing or not by allowing him to play in this group. What I am endeavoring to do is to try and help him develop a good and strong relationship with the Lord, and I think that is coming along very well. When they play out my son will unashamedly proclaim the gospel of Jesus to the crowd.
Anyway I appreciate this article, and it is timely and very important subject.
To a certain extent I agree, Greg. Lyrics is primary. I think the communicative nature of music is different when it comes to no lyrics. There can be a feeling and mood, and that can be dark and all dark can be bad, and that’s where discernment comes in.
As for rap, I have enjoyed a few CDs from Reformed Rap groups, who are explicity Christian and the rhyming is quite stimulating. It’s like preaching set to music. Lampmode Records and Shai Linne and Timothy Brindle are the fellows I’ve heard. But it is a small percent, I agree. But even then, the association with the secular hip hop and rap is too much for many to even permit this. Which goes back to saying that something is there besides just the words….
Sounds like an interesting read. Will have to pick it up. It’s funny that those who claim the genre doesn’t effect anything and it’s all about the words have issues with their children being effected by the genre in a negative way. I shouldn’t say funny because it really isn’t. Maybe ironic is a better word. Anyway, the point is the musical style has an impact and it is my opinion that children are more drawn to the genre and lifestyle of the music then the lyrics. I know I was.
Also, to Greg- I hope you don’t take the “if I’m wrong God will forgive me” approach to all issues in life. I have debated the issue of music in my mind for a while and still do. I am still ifb (i just labeled myself) (though not of the kjv only stripe), and I have used some newer stuff but cannot accept that music is amoral. When I try and find ways to make allowances for various genres bc I like it I always get hung up on that pesky verse that says “whatever is not of faith is sin.” I simply can’t say “well, in the end God wil l forgive me if I’m wrong.” too much is at stake especially with children
Dennis,
I have a hard time measuring the exact communicative value of music, how do you judge sounds to be good or bad? It is people who interact with things and can use them in good or bad ways because they are moral agents. Songs and food, clothing and cars, these are all neutral, inanimate objects. (Liquor is too, by the way.) When people interact with these things, they can use them in sinful ways. But the sin isn’t inherent in the inanimate objects. We can abuse wine, sex, and food, and we can abuse music. But all the above are gifts of God to us for appropriate use, in my book.
I’ve brought up the music issue before around here. You can peruse my music page for recommended music and important articles on the topic. Plus I’ve hosted debates on the subject in the comments here and you can read the pros and cons.
Ultimately, from the Bible, the case for which music is good and which is bad, gets pretty shaky. It’s not a clear cut thing, there’s a lot of gray and undefined things when it comes to evaluating music. That’s why this book helps in modeling how to talk with children about the topic and offering some good advice on what guidelines to think through and set.
Anyway, thanks for dropping by.
Dennis
In the short amt of space and time here, and being that as myself and son are actually in music ministry, this is an issue that is right in my face right now. I probably didn’t explain myself as well as I could. I would like to address your concern about my “if I’m wrong I know God will forgive me” statement. I guess what I am trying to express here is that I truly don’t know, honest to goodness, don’t know if some type of beats are “wrong” (I don’t think so) and being the type of christian I am, I don’t listen to any man’s opinion about it unless they have biblical backing for their opinion. (got tired of that in the IFB) I am essentially going with the light that I have, and doing the best that I can, but you know, come to think of it, that’s pretty much the way christians have to live this life. I actually wish things were black and white, the way the legalists teach it in the IFB, it would make things easier.
@Bob, I re-read my earlier comment and I realized that my statement “if you can demonstrate that beats are wrong” It may have seemed like I was personally challenging you to demonstrate, that wasn’t what I meant. I was trying to say if someone could, (know what I’m saying?) I should have paid more attention in english class then maybe I could express myself better.
Anyway good article, sounds like a great book and I appreciate all the comments.
Greg,
Don’t worry about the English. I had a classic gaffe in my last post to you: “lyrics IS primary.” :^) I appreciate where you’re coming from on this too, by the way. It’s honest and realistic, not some concocted theory that hunts through the Bible finding some rationale for saying it’s Biblical…. (As in much of the “music with a beat is bad” teaching I heard growing up.) This isn’t to rankle people’s feathers and just live it up because I want to. Instead I’ve evaluated the issue and just am not convinced of the arguments some have. I can see by the fruit in my own life and others, of contemporary praise music, and see that it bears good fruit.
I’m rambling now, but glad you appreciated the article. The book was a good read, and I hope it helps many on this issue.
Dennis, I’m not sure if your comment was directed at me, but I can assure you that I nor anyone I’ve read on the subject claim that the genre does not affect anything and it’s only the words that count. By its very design, music is supposed to affect us. In my opinion, it is our job as parents (and ultimately as Christians) to steer the influence that music has on us toward honoring God. It’s the same with anything and everything. Without the Spirit’s guidance, anything can influence us to sin, whether it be music, food, reading, education – anything.
Bob, Greg, and Stephen,
I’m sorry if i came off in a bad light. I honestly wasnt trying to personally attack anyone. I probably generalized a bit on my comment and that can be dangerous. You are right that it’s hard to judge what is right and what is wrong regarding music. I do think that their are aspects of music that can be acceptable for some but not others. That being said I don’t think music in and of itself is neutral. This is where we will ultimately disagree. Music communicates something whereas liquer in and of itself does not. I do not approach musical styles as things to “be redeemed.” I don’t believe everything is supposed to be redeemed in that sense. There were aspects of both OT and NT culture that were to be destroyed or avoided. Rap is an easy target to me (though I never thought guys like devour piper would endurse it), and is not something to be redeemed in that sense. Sometimes redemption requires separation from something. I grew up listening to various rock groups and I still enjoy (though I don’t listen too) that style of music. Too be honest have listened to much of the “Christian” music out there, and once you work through the 90% of it that is theologically inaccurate and/or you can’t understand there are some songs that are appealing that.communicate a biblical message. Some of these songs have a beat. However, I would never use them in a corporate worship setting. My biggest problem with these groups is that they look exactly like the secular artists, there concerts are driven by emotion (whether the want to admit it or not), and the whole scene (IMO) does not display Godliness. I believe it’s telling when one can raise a hand to the last contemporary song, but not raise their hand to immortal, invisible God only wise. Music in our worship has become more than “does this glorify God?” We now ask the question “do i/people also like it.” I do believe that biblically there are wrong ways in worshipping God no matter how sincere. You don’t have to reply as I’ve talked with many (including good friends) who disagree. Our disagreements usually lie in the morality/lack of morality in music and to what extent we should seek to redeem the world’s things.
@ Greg- regarding legalists. While I understand that there are some who take extremes, I don’t think that be having a black and white in an area makes one a legalist. I do think and allow for grey areas in music, but at a much lesser extent that many. I understand your struggle as i have tried to work through the music issue myself. I do think that for many who have made the shift to having a band in their church it was not out of a 100% belief that this music was ok, but was more of a “well, other Godly men are using it, i can see the good in it.” I personally have not been able to swallow that pill for our congregation. Could I do. It and in a year see no problem with it? Sure. I could also start watching some perverted sitcom and find little to noth ing wrong with it a year from now. Whether it’s as individuals or corporately as a church, I think there are black and whites. They may differ some from other peoples black and whites, but I would not have a combined service with a church that utilized a band though i may fellowship i n other areas. I guess that’s why I still consider myself a ifb.
@Stephen- I would not put food and music i n the same category. See comments above. This is where we will be at odds
Dennis,
No harm taken. I hope you don’t get the impression we’re ganging up on you. I can understand where you’re coming from, but ask yourself how much of Scripture directly addresses your concerns? How much of it is an application or personal preference? I used to be a member at John Piper’s church, and they stressed gravity and gladness in worship. And they succeeded at blending hymns and contemporary songs in a worshipful, grave way. To me, the contemporary orchestration used in some of the songs, really hit home. It is music of my generation and really communicates with powerful emotions to me. The hymns of yesteryear, I appreciate intellectually, but the music doesn’t move me as much, since it isn’t of my generation, and it is 100 years old or more in most cases. Back when first written, it was music of that age, however….
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here, we know we won’t solve the world’s problems or come to perfect unity in a forum like this, but it’s helpful to see the interaction from others and to grow by thinking through such things aloud, as it were.
Blessings to you,
Bob
Dennis
Bob is much more mellow than I am, and while I sometimes wish I could emulate him, I always find myself unable to in certain situations, thus I want to challenge several things that you said in this last comment.
You spoke about songs being “theologically inaccurate” As someone that has been perfoming in differnt denominational churches for 12 years, let me say that I have had to wade through this “minefield” and I’ll bet that I could go through the hymnbook in your church and find items that don’t support your theology.
“Looks exactly like the world” Dennis your fundiness is really starting to show on this one. I submit to you if we could get an aerial photo of Jerusalem in 30 A.D. you wouldn’t be able to point out Jesus or any of the apostles! Oh, my – this is one that is near and dear to my heart, and probably the 2nd main reason, after KJVonlyism, that I’m glad to be gone from this nasty, uneducated view of christianity. To view Jesus or the Apostles, they “looked” just like everyone else, let me shout here, Jesus cares about the “inside” of that cup way more than the outside. You can’t make scripture say otherwise.
“their concerts being driven by emotion” This seems to always be the case with nearly “All” IFB sermons I hear, not that emotions are wrong, your church could be different, hope it is, but this to me is kind of a non-issue.
“there are wrong ways to worship God, no matter how sincere” Man I sure don’t know about this one. Are you talking about real, born again, sincere followers of Jesus?
“redeeming the world’s things” the world’s things are the world’s things, God things are God’s things.
“Comparing having a christian band in church to watching a perverted sitcom” Wow, just Wow!
I have no doubt that you are a sincere man of God trying to do what God would have you do, as I am. I hope that by my challenging you on some of these issues will make you “examine” some of your beliefs from a biblical perspective, as opposed to a, well this is the way we’ve always done it, or good ol brother so and so did it this way and it was good enough for him.
Let God be true and every man a liar.
Bob,
I understand your point about being written 100+years ago. I will say that there is much being written today that is “updated” music but in a “conservative” style that speaks to me in my culture.
Greg,
I do go through the hymn book of our church and am very careful about our hymn selection. I have thought through probably most if not all of the arguments you bring up. I really don’t feel as if I just do it bc “it’s always been done that way.” I tend to challenge issues and I have in my own life challenge the music issue but came to the conclusion that music is not amoral which in turn leads me to conclude that not all music is acceptable in worship. I think you may have misunderstood my comparison of christian bands and a perverted sitcom. I wasnt comparing the content, but rather trying to show that we as humans can be desensitized to things the more we do them. I believe that has been the case with certain styles of music.
I chuckle at the remark that ifb are all uneducated. While I know that there are some who are not big on formal education there are many who are. So I will just leave it at that.
I agree to a point that Jesus is concerned more about the inside. However, Im not sure how much more. Throughout the NT, we see admonitions for how we live our lives and the works, etc that others may see. I know the is a balance here as we cannot judge everyone by their outer appearance, but I would venture to say that we recognize things that are influenced by the philosophy of this world. It may be an over exageration but why not a Christian bar? Be careful not to judge here. The argument that Jesus only cares about the outside has a voice when things are taken to the extreme that other way, but I think most of the time it is just used to play the “don’t ever judge by appearance.”. We ares called to be discerning and often times we discern by what our senses tell us including our sight.
When I say redeeming the world’s things, i a saying that not every style of music is meant to be redeemed. It has certain associations and connections that just are not Godly. I think of the interview with dever and one of the reformed rappers. Devour asked him his testimony and he said he was saved and stopped doing rap because of what it stood for, etc. It wasn’t till Joshua Harris talked to him and told him to use the rap for God. I wonder what convicted him about stopping his rap in the first place?
Having standards is different than legalism. I don’t think anyone is an unbeliever who listens/uses contemporary music. They may be sincere in their efforts, but it is my belief after studying and reading much on the issue that there is a right and wrong regarding music. Having a guitar and drums should not make or break my emotions in worship. We sing Getty sovereign grace in our church, but I find that having a band up front puts the focus on the wrong area.
Thanks for the feedback. Grace and peace to you
Dennis
“Having a band up front puts the focus on the wrong area” What if I responded by saying “Having a man (preacher) up front puts the focus on the wrong area.) There is a large move in the U.S. for a more traditional (1st Century) way of “doing” church. The idea that God had in mind for one person to stand in front of a group with aisles facing fwd to focus solely on the pastor is being questioned heavily, how can the body share their gifts like this? What if God has laid something on brother Sam’s heart to share on Sunday, but he is not allowed to share God’s message. I haven’t completely thought all of this through, but I can tell you, the way we are “doing” church does not seem to match up with what I’m seeing in the New testament. I can’t fathom how some man or any man is going to have God’s message for me and my family week after week, what about the priesthood of believers? And as far as the IFB goes, you can really run into problems if the pastor is a nut and takes the whole church over a cliff, think Jim Jones. I heard this definition of church sometime ago. A church is a building with a special room designed to focus on one person. When I study the scriptures about the new testament church, I don’t see in “churches” what I see in the scripture. Particularly in the IFB church, most of which the Pastor is king, and he has a bunch of “yes” men deacons following him around like puppies.
Why not a christian bar? Crystal clear scriptures condemning drunkeness.
You got me on “all IFB’s being uneducated” but a massive amt are, just look at most of the IFB’s extra-biblical doctrine of “KJV only”
I think you could be confusing cultural trends with the world, culture changes, and not all of those changes are wrong. All men at one time wore hats in this country, someone not wearing a hat would be considered odd. I know many in fundyism condemned cell phones, pagers, computers, which most of these things now have come to be accepted. Still many fundy pastors preach against the internet, social networking sites and on and on, I’m sure if the Lord tarries they will mellow in many of these areas, just like alcohol can be misused, so can this new technology, am I making sense?
True story from Wednesday night at church. I had carried some of my son’s bandmembers to prayer meeting, I noticed one of the long-haired boys messing with his phone about half-way through the meeting, I caught my son’s eye and nodded for him to tell the kid to knock it off, well come to find out he had an app with the bible on it and was following the lesson!
I am sure the Lord is gonna straighten us all out on some things when we get to heaven, but I know I am striving to live for Him.
Greg,
I’ve never made the assertion that ifb churches were all perfect or for that matter all good. There are serious flaws within. Side note- if you don’t think other denominations/groups have their issues you are mistaken. It appears obvious that you have been exposed to a more extreme segment of ifb than I am currently, though I know these types of churches and have no real fellowship with them on a day to day basis.
I honestly don’t think I am confusing worldliness with cultural change. A computer is an amoral object. It can be used in an immoral way or moral way. I would say that the articles of clothing we wear are in an of them selves amoral, but they can be used in an immoral or moral way. To suggest otherwise leaves the door open for any and everything. Everyone makes judgments. Sorry but the way one dresses associates themselves with certain things. We make a judgment. You make judgments every day. For instance, you made a judgment that a Christian bar would entail drunkenness. Maybe it’s a place to have a beer or 2 and fellowship. There are associations with everything. I strive to have a balance. For instance, I’ve never bought the argument for not going to the movies because of association. But I do buy the argument for not going to a rock concert.
Regarding a man up front, the focus is on the preacher to the extent that he places the focus on the message being preached. I’m not sure how many would agree with your point there even in the evangelical world. For more study of not having a pastor and letting anyone speak, study plymouth brethren (have a friend who is one).
I hope that I never come across as a dictator to my people. I am one among equals. That being said there is an element of authority in the position as pastor.
Again, we are not going to see eye to eye on this issue because I don’t see musical style in the same category as a computer or technology. I think music in and of itself carries a moral or immoral message. I’m not.suggesting that it is easy to tell the difference as I suggested I leave room for grey areas. My point to begin was that people who claim that music is amoral must be accepting of any and every style of music (rap, heavy metal, etc). Then when our children are becoming influenced in their attitudes and how they act (the need to be cool) nby that type of music we have a problem. My contention being that the style of music brings with it a lot of baggage and associations.
Ps- getting very “biblical” I would suggest that while I don’t agree with much of the style of sovereign grace, I appreciate that they see their music as a gift to their local church and have approached it in that manner. I cannot say the same for much of contemporary music.
One other thought. If you approach music as a “meat” issue, which many people do. This means that I would fall into the weaker brother category. Paul admonishes that he would never seek to cause a weaker brother to stumble. Yet, what I find often (I’m not directing this to you) is that people who advocate contemorary music style do so not with a humility like Paul(not suggesting I have this humility either). Rather, it becomes a “we been enlightened, you are still in the dark ages, get with it.” In the process, a brother or sister stumbles. So they will cause someone to violate their conviction so that they can feel more “comfortable” with their worship. If someoe can’t worship God, without the bands then i think something is wrong. I appreciate t4g in that they realize the issue and choose to use a more conservative musical style when together
Dennis,
You make some good points and I sense by your writing that you are carefully considering these things and that is very good, btw, like I mentioned earlier we must go with the light we have, and simply do the best we can with the light that is given.
In the same paragraph that you say “I am one among equals” you also say “I hope I never come across as a dictator to my people” Good sir, may I shout again? All due respect, they are God’s people, not yours! The sooner you learn this and let it sink into your spirit, and act accordingly, the better overseer you will become. This type of thinking is rampant in fundyism, and I can definitely tell that you aren’t nearly as bad as many I have come across.
I don’t have to look to the plymouth brethern to see the body of Christ operating w/out a dictator (sarcasm used for effect)and Bob sorta stole my thunder below, just open up your bible and look at the Corinthian church, in particular 1 Cor 14, now I know that Paul had to hammer this church for alot they were doing wrong, but certainly we can see that these folks were using their gifts to minister in this 1st century church, btw I don’t believe all of these gifts are still available for the church today.
Ever wonder why we put so much emphasis on pastors and Paul doesn’t seem to? Wonder why he never addresses any of his letters to the “Pastor” at Rome, Ephesus etc.
Have a look at some scripture that indicate “multiple elder rule” there are many, I’ll just list a few. Act 14:23, Acts 20:17, Philipians 1:1, Titus 1:5.
Regarding multiple elder rule, and I’m sorta thinking out loud here, doesn’t it seem to just make common sense? You wouldn’t have some man dictating to a group of believers foolish things. An overseer is simply a man like other men. I have lived in this body of flesh for 52 years now and I am well aware of how sinful and wicked a man can be, with a group of elders and spiritually minded christians helping to guard against sin and wickedness in the body, wouldn’t this provide for a much healthier body?
Regarding clothing, I would instruct folks to strive for modesty, I don’t see our Lord indicating anything else in His Precious Word.
I love all sorts of music. I love the old hymns, good contemporary, of course bluegrass, southern gospel. I love it all, if I can understand it and it uplifts the Saviour.
I know you are a caring, sensitive man trying to do right by “God’s” people. I don’t have all the answers, but I’m not satisfied with the status quo for what passes for “church” in our churches today.
In the same paragraph that you say “I am one among equals†you also say “I hope I never come across as a dictator to my people†Good sir, may I shout again? All due respect, they are God’s people, not yours!”
Thank you for the clarification. They are God’s. I use “my” in the sense that God has called some as shepherds of His flock. Probably a better phrase would be “to those who God is allowing me to shepherd.”
I have studied plurality of elders and admittedly their are some good arguments for it. I still don’t think that one exact model is necessarily distinctly clear. I also think that having an associate, youth, outreach pastor can have the same effect as those who use a plurality of elders. I think the issue is more with the attitude of the pastor. A humble attitude will value, cherish, and respect various opinions and views. This must be the case in a plurality of elders as well. Even in that setting there is usually one who sets the vision, does the majority of preaching, etc. They wield great influence. Sadly, many pastors take advantage of their position. PLEASE people study the Scriptures to see if what your pastor says is true!
I think we are a bit off focus of this thread, but it was good discussing with you. I rarely comment on blogs because I tend to “get carried away.” I need to find a way to declare blogs worldly, that would solve my problem 🙂
This is the 3rd time I tried to post. I didn’t think there was an approval process, but I could be wrong. Feel free to delete repeat posts if I submitted multiple
Somehow the spam control got those other posts. Sorry about that. Since you repeated yourself here, I’ve deleted them.
Greg,
I like your point about one guy up front, and everyone else focusing on him. I understand it is about centrality of “preaching”, but “preaching” as such, is really a modern thing. Kerusso is almost exclusively used of evangelistic declaration to the lost, and never of “preaching” at the believers gathered for worship. Instead Acts 20:1-7, 1 Cor. 14 and other places which give us a peek into gatherings of believers, use a conversational dialogue format, it seems.
I haven’t worked it all out yet either, but I think our tendency to formalize everything and go by an order of service can limit the Holy Spirit. One can go overboard with this, for sure. But some kind of balance could be aiemd for…
Dennis,
I have enjoyed the dialogue as well and in fact we did kinda get off topic. I tend to be like a bull in a china shop with my comments, what I do is try to get to my points as quickly as possible, with as few words as necessary, and sometimes that comes out as being rude, and believe me that’s the last thing I would want to do to a brother and fellow worker in the Lord.
I wish you well and please continue to allow the Spirit to guide you as you endeavor to serve our Lord.
Bob,
I just finished reading this book and I have to be honest here and say that I was incredibly disappointed. While I agree with most of what he says about music, he didn’t really address discussing music with his son until the second to last chapter. I didn’t get the book to learn about music, musical genres, etc, which is what makes up the vast majority of the book. Admittedly, my musical background and study is perhaps broader than many readers and it might be of help to explore these topics. I just found his conclusions to be rather hurriedly written and had plenty of space and opportunity to expound on them further. I’m also a big fan of reading footnotes and found it rather odd that, given his stance on music, he would cite Kimberly Smith’s atrocious book Music and Morals (top of p.50).
However, I will say that the book has given me a good starting place for music conversations with my son. I guess I was just hoping for something more. What that “something” is I’m not sure, but I’m going to keep looking. Thanks again for the recommendation.
Stephen,
I’m sorry it disappointed. It was short. I thought for some it would really help. But I agree it’s not as detailed as it could be. I liked the idea of how to discuss with your kids though. Glad you just got it through paperbackswap so not too much of a bust.
I haven’t read Smith’s book. I’ve thought through the issues a lot, but not really read very many books on the topic (besides fundamentalist diatribes).
Some of what he said in the first part of the book was a good antidote to some of the material I have read in the past though.
Thanks for sharing your experience with the book.
Bob