John Piper’s ministry, Desiring God, will be holding a regional conference at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California April 29-30. Pastor Piper will also be speaking, apparently, at Saddleback Church on Sunday May 1.
Now, Rick Warren’s ministry raises some question marks for sure. Should the church be focusing on poverty and world peace so closely as an extension of ministry? Do some of Warren’s teaching methods and outreach efforts really cater to the “felt-needs” of the unchurched too much, to the point where the gospel is obscured? Does having the Jonas Brothers performing in concert reveal a total lack of discernment?
I’m not sure I have all the answers here about Rick Warren, but I haven’t talked with him either. What bothers me, is that many people are quick to point to John Piper’s speaking at Saddleback, and Rick Warren’s speaking at the Desiring God Conference in Minneapolis last Fall, and conclude that John Piper has sold out on the Gospel, and has compromised the faith.
I recently came across remarks by Ingrid Schlueter, a well-known watch-blogger:
Despite the countless and detailed warnings that have gone out over the last decade about Rick Warren and his distortion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, John Piper prepares to deliver his followers to the platform at Saddleback Church in an act of ultimate spiritual betrayal on April 29 and 30, 2011.
John Piper, perhaps more than anyone else who has been seduced by Dr. Warren through the years, is without excuse. Could there be a teacher more aware of what the Gospel actually is according to Scripture? Someone with a more thorough knowledge of the whole Counsel of God? Someone with more access to the best commentaries, the best theological instruction, the most devout and rigorous Bible teaching colleagues in the land? Yet he falls, and with him, takes innumerable sheep who will trust him to their own destruction.
“Ultimate spiritual betrayal,” really??? Piper is taking us to our “own destruction”??
In a Facebook conversation recently, someone mentioned that Warren taught a works-based righteousness. Another said Piper speaking at Saddleback would be “counter-productive to the gospel effort”. I respect the people who said these things, but I think they are swept up in a frenzy of mis-information, and well-intentioned paranoia.
Rick Warren is not a false teacher or a denier of the Gospel. He may muddy the waters signficantly, but he isn’t a devil or antichrist. He is just the latest incarnation of American revivalism meets pragmatism. His message is not strange. It might not be as clear doctrinally as some would like (although we don’t get to see all the doctrinal teaching that goes on at Saddleback, up close and personal). His preaching may not always be verse-by-verse exposition. But He does revere the Bible and preach a plain Gospel.
It is hard to judge people solely on one-liners given in front of a hostile interviewer. I’m sure Warren’s failed sometimes in articulating the gospel message clearly. In this interview at Fox News, however, I think he did a good job in presenting that Jesus is the only way, and that salvation is a gift — while still not coming off as being extremely judgmental and mean-spirited. But we don’t have to go by just his public media appearances. Here is a 13 minute video where he presents the Gospel, answering the question “What does it mean to begin a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?” Now his gospel presentation there differs little from many given around the country every Sunday. It’s not as clearly Reformed as some would prefer, and it emphasizes a “sinner’s prayer”. But it is still clearly a grace-based, Biblical, Gospel presentation.
I’ve read some of Warren’s reflections about his incredibly popular book, The Purpose Driven Life, where he admits to being Calvinistic in his doctrine, even. I watched his message delivered to the Desiring God National Conference last Fall. I thought it was full of helpful information and really opened up a side of Rick Warren I hadn’t hear much of before. I heard John Piper’s explanations about why he invited Rick Warren: here and here. I’ve also posted about the controversy at length before. (And I’m not the only one who thinks the reactions against Piper and Warren are seriously over-the-top.)
But for my part, Piper speaking at Saddleback, and having a DG Conference at Rick Warren’s church is far less a problem than having Warren come speak at his conference. The Conference is going to be John Piper speaking in three sessions about the essence of “Desiring God”. It will be a standard Piper conference focusing on the 25th anniversary of Piper’s hugely influential (and thoroughly Biblical) book, Desiring God. I am thrilled that many of the people at Saddleback may get to hear that teaching and be shaped by Piper’s emphasis on God’s glory. And then, Piper speaks at Saddleback, and he can give his message and say what’s on his heart. I’ve heard many a well-known Baptist fundamentalist even claim they’d preach at the Vatican if given the chance to preach the gospel. Why should Piper preaching at Saddleback’s pulpit be necessarily a compromise of the Gospel?
This post is a bit of a vent, I’m sorry. It might not flow all that well. I’m just saddened to see so many derail Rick Warren as being an “antichrist”. I literally read someone wish that Piper had called Warren out as exactly that, an “antichrist”. Or just as sad, consider how a commenter at Justin Taylor’s blog described Rick Warren: a “Gospel-betraying, Bible-hating evildoer”! This kind of reaction is over-the-top, and I believe it also “bears false witness” in direct violation of the 9th commandment. The kind of ill-will and judgmentalism displayed toward Piper and Warren is as detrimental to the Gospel and more so, than some of Warren’s public statements which are less than clear about the Gospel.
Two superstars, Of course if I had to choose the one I most agree with, it would be Warren. But just the fact that people look to either man with so much adoration concerns me. Jesus must look at us and chuckle, often.
I’m curious, Greg. Are you at all surprised at how some people react to Warren as being a “false teacher”? Or is your branch of the church also viewing Warren with some suspicion these days…. Just wondering.
I’m not adoring Piper or anything, I do try to be careful about following one man too closely. People are warning about him because of his connection to Warren now, and the things they’re saying about both Warren and Piper are quite alarming. Speaking that way about brothers in Christ, and men who are trying to serve Christ faithfully, is alarming to me.
Bob – I don’t agree with either man completely, but I certainly do count both as brothers in Christ. I believe both to be sincere men that are trying to do something for the cause of Christ.
My old fundy church actually had anti-Warren tracts in the tract rack, right beside their anti-new bible version tracts. My last, in office visit with my old fundy pastor was about him talking negatively about Warren from the pulpit, it didn’t go well. I had taken Warren’s “Purpose Driven Life” with me, and had marked some pages, and Pastor wanted to know if I studied the bible as much as I did these “other” books.
I’m sure we keep Jesus laughing, except for when he’s crying!
Thanks, Greg. I bet He does cry, too.
Hi Bob,
First, I appreciate your website here and have gained some great insights from you (esp your suff on Calvinism!) and I thank you.
~
I agree with some of what you’ve said in this article, but respectfully disagree with your assesments of RW. Of course none of us has all the answers on him but we needn’t look too long and too hard to see the problems with him either..problems that extend well beyond too-great a “focus on poverty and world peace”, teaching methods, outreach efforts and dreadful worship leader choices.
One case in point; the recent seminar held at Saddleback where New Age spiritist/guru’s (Dr’s. Daniel Amen, Mark Hyman & Mehmet Oz) were brought in for a seminar promoting the kick-off for Saddleback’s new church-wide “health and diet plan” called the Daniel Fast. This so-called “God’s prescription plan for your health” takes quite a perversion of its namesake’s narrative to be legitimized as “biblical”. In reality this event was more than merely about a “diet and health plan”, deceptively so. (as documented here) This ought to raise more than a few questions, it ought raise the hair on our skin.
Warren knows all the right gospel language. He knows when and where to use it, and where not to. Whether he has an audience of one or of 10,000 he says what it wants to hear. These are things that can easily be assesed by a few clicks in the Youtube. (or I’d be happy to help 😉
I still love and respect John Piper for how mightily God has used him all over the globe..and for the many hours of edification and blessing I’ve received from his sermons and writings..but I am deeply disturbed by the trend he has taken in extending the arm of fellowship to Warren & Co. He said he believes Warren to be “doctrinely sound”, well that may be so; but his affiliations, actions and doublespeak say something very different.
I really don’t know what to make of this elephant in the Reformed/Evangelical room but I do know and am very thankful to know, that God is at work in it all to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Really, in view of all the upheaval we’ve witnessed in Christiandom in recent years, which unfortunately has resulted in the fallout of poor-to-dreadfully poor un-Christ-like behavior from many Christians (I include myself in some instances)…I am beginning to wonder if the real issue God means for us to take-away here lies less with the false teachers/ministries themselves and more with our own reactions to it – on all sides. But we can’t ignore the reality that a little leaven affects the whole lump..and what fellowship does light have with darkness? Not a hint.
As the world continues to watch us I pray for much grace and growth, a continued effort to strive for excellence in the stewardship of the Word and as ambassadors of the faith, no matter what side of a perceived fence we may land on.
Thanks for “letting” me vent a little, Bob 🙂
Many blessings ~
-Suzanne
Thanks for sharing your heart, Suzanne. I respect where you’re coming from. I just think we can tend to stretch the case against Warren too far. I hope Piper can have some of an impact.
Well, if you pick either the most sensational responses from the minority or characterize other responses with immense exaggeration such as Warren being the “Antichrist” (a charge I know of no reasonable student of Scripture making considering), then you don’t have to deal with the real problems of Piper and Warren, now do you? And when will that be? I won’t hold my breath on either, particularly with Piper.
Yes, if you think Reformed theology is a curse to the church, don’t hold your breath.
As for the “antichrist” bit, I came across that in doing research for this post, but double-checking my work I may have been wrong. Still I did come up with people saying this paves the way for the Antichrist, and I think a few were saying Warren had an antichrist theology.
I don’t appreciate your insinuating that I’m purposely dodging the issues with Warren by posting this. I’m not dodging anything. I’m dealing with what I believe is a problem here, and I deal with lots of other problems. Don’t read motives into people, it usually doesn’t work (which is a big part of the problem in this particular case).
Matthew 13:24-30 (New Living Translation)
Parable of the Wheat and Weeds
24 Here is another story Jesus told: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer who planted good seed in his field.
25 But that night as the workers slept, his enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat, then slipped away.
26 When the crop began to grow and produce grain, the weeds also grew.
27 “The farmer’s workers went to him and said, ‘Sir, the field where you planted that good seed is full of weeds! Where did they come from?’
28 “‘An enemy has done this!’ the farmer exclaimed. “‘Should we pull out the weeds?’ they asked.
29 “‘No,’ he replied, ‘you’ll uproot the wheat if you do.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn.’â€
As wise as we would like to be or appear…only the angels are qualified to make the call in some situations and then only at the proper time. Tares look so like wheat and get so completely mingled, that taking on this work can cause a considerable amount of damage. Being warned that grain from the enemy is found with the wheat should be sufficient for us to be sure to check the fruit before gobbling it up…*: )
I see RW as the Stan Lee of California evangelicals. In other words, he is a modern-media tub-thumper for Christ who makes it his goal to rarely disagree with anyone in a public way. He is a Baptist evangelist, hasn’t shown much interest in apologetics, and hasn’t shown himself to be a particularly capable theologian. As an evangelist, he mostly cares about persuasively communicating with liberal southern Californians, to the diminishment of a lot of other equally important concerns.
But what this ends up causing is a bad habit of shape-shifting, depending on with whom he is at any given time. He’ll criticize the New Age movement from the pulpit (good), then invite new-age-ish health gurus into the church to promote a heath program (??). He advocated California’s Prop 8 from his pulpit, but then claimed to the media he had never campaigned for it, which made him look bad since it was at worst a lie, or at best a very misleading claim.
I sit squarely between the “Rick Warren is just fine!” group (no, when thoroughly evaluated he isn’t fine), and the “Rick Warren is an anti-christ!” (no, when you examine the Gospel he preaches, he is not an anti-christ). I don’t have to endorse a guy as having a sound, reliable ministry just because I see he’s a brother in Christ, and I don’t have to anathematize a guy just because I see he has serious flaws and wouldn’t recommend attending his church.
In 37 years of being a Christian, I’ve never visited any Baptist mega-church that I would want to attend or join anyway. So Saddleback just falls into that same mental classification for me.
Thanks for putting your thoughts on this into words, here, Jack. Very helpful & I appreciate your take.
Bob
Yes, if you think Reformed theology is a curse to the church, don’t hold your breath.
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If you think John Piper is an appropriate representative for the arguments of Reformed Theology, Bob, then in spite of your book reviews, I believe your reading needs some extension. Piper and Reformed? R U Serious? He gives lip service to serious theology and then runs off into Christian Hedonism which opposes so much present in Historical Reformed Theology that I cannot believe you would miss the gap. May I recommend John Robbins?
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As for the “antichrist†bit, I came across that in doing research for this post, but double-checking my work I may have been wrong. Still I did come up with people saying this paves the way for the Antichrist, and I think a few were saying Warren had an antichrist theology.
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Well, did you research whether Warren may have said some things that could have legitimately been construed as such? Simply dismissing it isn’t discovery, it is reaction.
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I don’t appreciate your insinuating that I’m purposely dodging the issues with Warren by posting this. I’m not dodging anything. I’m dealing with what I believe is a problem here, and I deal with lots of other problems. Don’t read motives into people, it usually doesn’t work (which is a big part of the problem in this particular case).
________________________________
Purposely and conveniently are not the same. I will be happy to submit a list of challenging statements by Piper that I do not believe you will or can successfully field with theological justification. I don’t really see a record of you dealing with Piper’s gross issues. Let me know. Your blog is still quite enjoyable.
I agree that Piper shouldn’t be held guilty by association, and I agree that Warren has taught the gospel at times. However, Warren does NOT teach the “simple gospel”. He teaches works righteousness as though it were the gospel, and he does this because he believes that if people are instructed and believe the true Law of God, they will behave accordingly, because “behind every sin is a lie I’m believing” (a quote from his Desiring God video).
Here’s a breakdown of the video; it’s the best I could find in print.
http://airo-cross.blogspot.com/2010/10/pelagian-rick-warren-teaches.html
The best review is audio; it’s embedded at the end of the above link. The reason it’s the best is that it includes the ENTIRE audio of Warren’s address, so that there’s nothing taken out of context. I very strongly recommend it — it’s worth the time.
-Wm
When people make claims about Piper that can’t be proven, it just makes those people sound foolish. Piper has written some excellent stuff defending the traditional Protestant view of justification against N.T. Wright, his book exegeting Romans 9 is outstanding (and makes Arminian exegesis of the same look sick in comparison), he has criticized the worldly professionalization of the ministry, and is attacking Open Theism and defending the orthodox view of God’s omniscience in his own denomination. His defenses of Calvinism are rational, and never descend to the pro-Arminian name-calling you hear from people like Norm Geisler or Ergun Caner. His aversion to practicality in application can become tiresome to me, because it makes him sound like a Johnny One-Note — everything ends up revolving back to “Enjoy God!”, as if giving forth at least a little bit of teaching on how to do something would kill him. He was the worst pastor’s-day conference speakers the EFCA ever sponsored — he just re-preached four sermons he had preached someplace else, because (he said) the Bible didn’t say anything about how to preach. I think his love of Jonathan Edwards is excessive and inexplicable, and I think his preaching on the non-canonical passage of the woman caught in adultery was quite strange. I think you become accountable for whoever you invite onto any platform you oversee, so I think he could sponsor a panel about “Pragmatism In Ministry” without needing to have RW literally preach.
But when people call Piper a heretic, or something like that, all it makes me do is go “Phbfffft!”
I recently came across this quote from F.B. Meyer on separating from false teachers in the church, and I think it provides sound, simple guidance that might be applicable here (see further thoughts below).
“It is often argued that we should stay in the midst of churches and bodies whose sins and follies we deplore, in the hope of saving them for God and mankind. Such reasoning has a good deal of force in the first stages of decline. A strong protest may arrest error and stop the gangrene. But as time advances, and the whole body becomes diseased; when the protests have been disregarded, and the arguments trampled underfoot; when the majority have clearly taken up their position against the truth—we have no alternative but to come out and be separate. The place from which we can exert the strongest influence for good is not from within, but from without.”
The issue proposed here – as I understand it – isn’t whether we’d associate with Warren, but whether we’d associate with Piper for associating with Warren, right? In other words, has Piper lost his credibilty for his mijnisterial relationship Warren. Using Meyer’s guidance (which I think is biblical), I think it would be quite excessive to distance one’s self from Piper over this relationship. I’m no experet on Warren, and I’m not a regular on the blogosphere, where I can feed on all the latest evangelical gossip, but the criticisms of Warren – valid as the might be – all seem outside the realm of essential doctrine and teaching. I’ve never heard anyone (anyone reasonable, at least) say he denies Christ, the gospel or other core beliefs that make us orthodoxy. While deployed to Iraq, my Christian men’s study read Purpose-Driven Life, and in light of all the criticism I’d heard of Warren, I was surprised at how much of it was actually pretty direct and hard-hitting. I expected Joel Olsteen and found someone to the right of Billy Graham.
So, there might be grave and valid concerns over Warren’s methodology, concerns that merit one’s not choosing Piper’s path of fellowship, but to cut one’s self from fellowship with Piper over this seems clearly outside biblical wisdom, and smacks of reactionary, separatist fundamentalism at best.
Thanks for “listening”,
WM
I think I’d agree Will. That F.B. Meyer quote is great, do you have the source?
Yea, I think that Piper may be thinking that we aren’t to the point of cutting off fellowship yet, and others think we are. And for how we handle Piper, that’s then secondary separation too.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Bob
JOHN PIPER INVITES PURPOSE DRIVEN RICK WARREN DG 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSmU8EcbjWk
They are both grown men and can handle the heat, if not relinquish the pulpit!
Here we have two great heresies. Calvinism with John Piper and Humanism with Rick Warren. Personally, I do not understand someone who supposedly is born again like a Warren and his Chislam lunacy. In my mind, Rick Warren is as deceived wolf in sheeps clothing. The list is long on him. allah is not God, he is a moon god and technically satan.
Dennis,
You are violating my commenting policy by manipulating this comment thread to spread your own views and not really interacting with the discussion or my post. That is why I have deleted your numerous posts, except this one. This is a warning before you are outright banned from commenting.
~Bob Hayton, site owner