Following up on my post from this weekend, I stumbled across this jewel of a video clip with Doug Wilson discussing the Rick Warren / John Piper controversy. He makes some insightful comments about how pessimism plays a role in the conservative church today when we assess situations such as Piper and Warren getting together to talk. We assume that something bad is going to happen, rather than looking for a positive outcome. I think Wilson is on to something here, even if I don’t totally buy into his eschatology. Listen to the clip below and let me know what you think.
Rick Warren and Desiring God 2010 (Part III) from Canon Wired on Vimeo.
Some were probably more offended by Piper’s inviting Doug Wilson to his one of his conferences before there was ever a Piper/Warren controversy. It sounds like those paranoid Reformed Baptists Wilson refers to in this video were right about his trajectory in the first place. How Reformed is he nowadays?
In my opinion, it’s a naively optimistic stance to assume that one known for compromising the gospel in so many ways, by his appearance at a Reformed event means he’s actually seriously considering becoming Reformed.
All things being equal, it’s the rotten apple that spoils the whole barrel; it’s the intervention of the grace of God for a barrel of good apples to purify the one bad apple.
John, is that your premillennialism speaking?? Just kidding.
We need to be careful about being polluted, yes. But we also need to reach out to help brothers overtaken in a fault too. The conference Piper is putting on at Saddleback is going to be excellent and I pray it impacts many people in Saddleback’s orbit. I wonder how the sermon will come out and if they’ll play it for all the Saddleback campuses or not.
I don’t agree with all Wilson stands for, for sure. But he has some excellent things to say on a lot of topics. We need to be careful to judge people that aren’t like us completely in our theological leanings. There are many people who fall in line with Warren’s style of Christianity who just haven’t been introduced to Reformed theology or have some misconceptions that prevent them from going there. Are we going to throw all of them under the bus? We need to be careful not to be Reformed, know-it-all, stuckup snobs. Having been among Fundamentalists snobs, I know what it’s like to condemn everyone else for not being like me. I hope I don’t trade one extreme for another.
It’s not my premillennialism, it’s simple realism…and probably actual confessionalism. There’s a difference between being a snob and being genuinely interested in protecting the sheep from the wolves.
I know Warren and Wilson are both brilliant guys, but both compromise the gospel, and as strong as they are on other topics, they are weak on the gospel. This kind of ecumenism is beyond the pegs of the confessional tent to which I aspire.
Was the first century church a bunch of snobs for be suspicious and not optimistic about Saul of Tarsus when he started darkening their door with a “profession of faith” and no warrants for anyone’s arrest? Or were they properly cautious about one who was known for promoting a plan of redemption at odds with that received from the eyewitnesses of Christ? Indeed, in Saul’s case, it turn out favorably, but it’s only realistic for folks burned by opposition to orthodox Christianity to be cautious toward their overtures of friendship. It’s very easy to slip into compromise on the gospel.
This is not a fundamentalist making everything a fundamental, this is a defense of the Fundamental of fundamentals. When actual repentance from their compromise of the gospel, and a developing pattern of more orthodox ministry, become apparent, then we can talk about the right hand of fellowship.
Yah, The barrel is already rotten. The body of Christ is hear to heal and make new again.
This is why perseverance matters. We are becoming less like the world and more like Christ. We ought to be able to put forth the redemptive message without fearing becoming our old self again.
Amen, Josh. That isn’t always the case in every scenario, we do need to “keep ourselves unspotted from the world” as James teaches. But we can have a hopeful perspective on things like this, I think.
John,
I appreciate your zeal here. Confessionalism is important, I grant that. I still think it’s early to tell what will come of this. I don’t think Warren is so far gone that overtures in his direction which are intended to help him are always and only going to be evidences of compromise rather than sincere efforts to right Warren’s ship. I hope your wrong, but I fear that you may be right about Warren. I think time will prove that Piper won’t be jumping on Warren’s ship or anything.
As long as Piper isn’t changing his message, preaching at Saddleback is a great venue for that kind of message, wouldn’t you think? Those people need a Piper-esque call to return to a gospel-centeredness, I’d think. And I trust Piper will take the responsibility of speaking to that crowd carefully.
I can appreciate Piper and Warren and even Wilson sharing a personal friendship, I would prefer Piper’s efforts to “right Warren’s ship” remain behind the scenes without so cross-pollenizing both of their constituencies that there is a real confusion about how far is too far when it comes to ecumenical relations with other professing evangelicals.
Agreed, John. That’s what I would do… But Piper didn’t do that. But that is still okay, he doesn’t answer to me. Time will tell if this was unwise ultimately. Denouncing Piper too soon & too loudly seems imprudent to me, not to mention over-the-top.
Take, for example, this comment from a Presbyterian elder-under-care regarding Piper’s stance toward Wilson’s errors, and you’ll see why I think Piper is simply not careful enough about such associations, and that it will in the long run prove detrimental to his ministry.
“I don’t mean for this to sound pejorative but I think his views on how PCA Elders have given Wilson a “bad rap” demonstrates a significant lack of humility on the matter.
“The issue of the Federal Vision and its relation to Confessional Reformed Theology has been studied at length by hundreds of elders from across the NAPARC spectrum. Countless hours have gone into study reports to confirm that it is un-Bibilical and un-Confessional.
“Yet, on the impression of one man, John Piper, his personal study concludes that the deliberation of thousands is a “bad rap” whereas his own assessment is careful and measured.
“In my estimation, this demonstrates the inherent danger of Congregationalism and I think I’ll stick with the wisdom of several General Assemblies’ conclusions rather than his personal assessment of the matter.
“Proverbs 11:14
“14 Where there is no guidance, a people falls,
but in an abundance of counselors there is safety. (ESV)
“Rich
Elder, Under Care, Hope of Christ Church (PCA), Northern VA
Student, New Geneva Theological Seminary”
http://www.puritanboard.com/f77/john-piper-explains-his-reason-inviting-doug-wilson-dg-conference-49931/#post640952
Seems to me that nitpicky legalism is an example of the bad apples spoiling the good.
The simple fact of the matter is that the folks who are parsing Wilson’s words to call him a heretic are parsing his words differently than Wilson would parse them.
I find the whole Federal Vision thing to be more confusing than helpful, but I watched Doug’s talk at Desiring God, and I don’t think Piper made a mistake in judgement. Wilson teaches the Gospel, and he teaches it well. He may not make a good Presbyterian, but that doesn’t make him a bad Christian. Seems like there should be grace to be wrong on many of the marginal issues.
When we focus on the minors and judge people’s hearts based on non-essentials, We Satan way too much credit and the Holy Spirit way to little. If we get that backwards we become powerless really quickly.
So Piper’s one head is better than the numerous presbyteries full of ministers who’ve been analyzing it over and over, non-stop for the many years the Federal Vision has been a controversy? That’s a very Baptistic, individualistic, tail-wagging-the-dog stance.
No. The problem is that the controversy is about some deep chicken and egg argument in the bowels of Paedeobaptist theology, and no matter what the Presbyterian academics say about it, it is up to Piper (a creadobaptist) weather he cares. Wilson says he is misunderstood. Academics say they understand. But who knows what is in Wilson’s head better than Wilson?
John Piper isn’t a Presbyterian. Piper thinks the whole camp is wrong, so what does it matter who is wronger. As such he has no obligation to ignore another Christian teacher because he has political problems within his own camp. To do so is more Pharisaical than Christian.
Hi Bob,
As to the video (in part) –
I’m no logical fallacy geek but I sense Wilson uses several of them here.
Anyway, I do agree that pessimism can play a damaging role in assessing anything, but we must also caution against jumping to naive optimism (Pro 14:15). That aside, aren’t correct/proper assesments of a ministry (like RW’s) are first made by looking at facts? And considering the fruit? (Mat 7:16) In the case of RW there’s little room for doubt -(not talking about judging “fruit” as in a person out of his church -whether they’re “saved” or not; I think that’s a wheat/tares illustration). Also, it’s not just his church but his other affiliations that are cause for alarm.
To be clear: I denounce and abhor some of what’s been flung-about (and continues) via the web and beyond, even from those who’d agree that this type of alignment with RW was (and is) awfully damaging, as to how much we’ve yet to see. Some of the comments in the wake of all this have been un-necessarily unhelpful, even disparaging toward both Warren and Piper..hardly reflective of real Christlikeness, and that’s a shame.
But we understand that such will come from men on all sides, even the seemingly orthodox “conservative and reformed world”; because the true enemy of our souls is what’s at work here. (Eph 6:12)
-More on what Wilson says in the video (in my teeny opinion)-
1.He broadbrushes the “conservative reformed world” with having a “deep embeddded defeatism” (the whole conservative/reformed world? or just those against the Warren/Piper convergence?)
Unfair, inaccurate.
2.Implies that “orthodox guy” sees every other guy (or gal) who may be not be “as” orthodox as: being “from the other team“.
Isn’t that unfair and unbiblical? In the world of right orthodoxy and true discipleship is there even such a thing as “the other team” ? I don’t think so…(Phl 1:27)
3.(unwieldly “anti-christ” remark not withstanding..) Simply “two men getting together”? hmm..Wilson’s words here were spoken before the Conference even occured. Now a year later, and with RW’s church/ ministries more further away from the biblical model than has ever before been seen, can we agree that this merger of “apples” did not have the effect that Wilson imagined it could?
4. A couple of Wilson’s quotes were especially troublsome..
He says:
First I will say that many “conservative reformed world” folks(myself included) held on to the hope that the later would indeed happen. As to the former, I never once thought it even possible for Warren to “drag Piper down” as such. If Piper does head-on-down the road on all 4’s, and away from “the Gospel first preached” it will not be because of anything Warren did or said.
Then he says:
I find that especially short-sighted. One cannot take a discriminating look at the true RW and put him in this context of “willingness to be associated with people like Piper” because there is pretty much no one left that Rick Warren not attempted to sidle-up with.
I have nothing against RW personally, he seems to be a swell guy, and I even believe he is sincere in his endeavors toward bringing the world together in one mind and for one purpose; unity, peace, prosperity, etc…
Thanks, Bob.
-Suzanne
I’m hoping that Warren will have a good doctrinal influence on Piper.
This reminds me alot of how the IFB’s treated Billy Graham when he began to reach out in friendship to those of other denominations.
Seems like many in the reformed camp (above) are not giving their reformed God much credit, isn’t the reformed God strong enough to stand some scrutiny. (tongue in cheek, sorta)
Hi Greg,
“Seems like many in the reformed camp (above) are not giving their reformed God much credit, isn’t the reformed God strong enough to stand some scrutiny.“
If you’re saying that God gets all the credit all the time I agree. To be clear – our God is not a “Reformed God”: He is a just, holy, perfect and good God, all of the time 🙂
Just like everything else in the world throughout history, God allowed this fellowship between Piper and Warren for specific reasons that, other than for our good and His ultimate glory, we really have no clue about. I think our reaction to these things are more crucial and important than the developements themselves, no matter how unfortunate they appear.
I believe we can know is this; as followers of Jesus Christ, our respondsibility to eachother and to the world remains unchanged despite the ever-changing face of Christiandom as we “see” it. (1 Cor 5:7)
-Suzanne
-oops- poorly scripted, but more importantly that verse should have been 2 Cor 5:7
:-]
Thx Suzanne for your last few comments. I think we should trust God with this. I think warning everyone about Piper now and separating from him & others who still hang with him (as I’ve seen advocated) is still both premature in one sense, and uncalled for.
-although 1 Cor 5:7 rings appropriate as well .. *grins*
Completely agree, Bob.
Thanks again.
-Suzanne
Suzanne, I agree very much with your comments and observations. One other thing that might be worth mentioning, re: RW/Piper connection. At last year’s Desiring God conference, those who were optimistic were hoping that Warren would get there and be overwhelmed with the depth and breadth of the gospel and reformed faith and then become stronger for it. The way it played it out went much differently. RW phoned it in, over VTC, and his entire speech was just the same kind of drucker leadership/sociological stuff that he’s pedalled for years.
I’m not one of the people who put RW outside the faith — I think we’re essentially on the same team, playing for the same coach. He’s just using the wrong equipment and it really bothers me that guys like Piper encourage it out of him.
Hi Deb,
I agree. And “outside the faith”, not willing to go there either, perhaps outside something, but not “the faith” and most certainly not outside God’s will . The complete and utter sovereignty of God is the end-all be-all to all of life, I am so grateful for this truth!
-Suzanne