Here’s most of the segment that was aired tonight on CNN. I’ll just share it here, and hope to discuss this more later. I think it’s clear CNN is being more than fair in their coverage, but the question is whether the truth is coming out or not.
UPDATE: The video was taken down by CNN, but here is a link to the transcript.
UPDATE 2: I found the video again, under a new name and with a different link. So I’ve embedded it again.
It is amazing the number of Fairhaven teenagers who are now adults, who contacted CNN wanting to tell their version of life at Fairhaven, and were ignored.
A very large number (larger than the 10 who were interviewed by Truchman) contacted Truchman asking to be interviewed, and were ignored.
In fact, a number of those who went on the Mexico trip contacted Truchman wanting to give their version of what happened there, and they were ignored.
Interviewing Dr. Voegtlin does not cut the mustard when it comes to journalistic objectivity in a case like this. There are many, many young people who grew up at Fairhaven, are living happy, productive lives, and who rejoice in their upbringing at Fairhaven.
Surprisingly (or not), former teens who left Fairhaven and left IFB-type churches have contacted Fairhaven, expressing anger and frustration at the things these 10 former young people said. They don’t share the same convictions and doctrine of their former church, but they know better than what was said to Gary Truchman.
If Truchman intended to present an objective report, he would have returned the phone calls and e-mails that were sent to him.
In the court of public opinion, Dr. Voegtlin cannot win in a case like this. Interviewing former teens who take the opposite view of these 10 would give a balanced picture. Unfortunately, Gary Truchman put his need to make a splash ahead of his integrity.
While I am disappointed, I am not at all surprised by the lack of balance in reporting. As Pastor Brandenburg pointed out, the larger point here has nothing to do with Fairhaven or Joscelyn or Jeri. They are the pawns. Anti-spanking is the end game.
It would have been interesting had they interviewed Jeff Voegtlin or Steve Damron, who were the leaders on the Mexico trip. It would be interesting to see them have to deny on camera these allegations.
People can believe what they want to, ultimately. And I don’t have access to the other side of the story and don’t claim to know all. But I have heard enough first-hand accounts from people who grew up at Fairhaven or people who interacted with those who did, that I have begun to believe the tales of tragic physical abuse. I have heard from Dr. McNeilly’s son, that the reason he left had to do in part with the Mexico trip. According to Michael McNeilly, Dr. McNeilly confronted Roger Voegtlin with Darcell McCoy Jr’s account of the Mexico Trip (along with Michael’s recollections). So for Roger Voegtlin to say he never heard of this, is stretching the truth in my opinion.
Also what was missing from the report was how the children interviewed were treated at home, with parents who were encouraged by the example and teaching of Fairhaven. I have also personally heard the staff talking about 45 min. to 2 hours long sessions of spankings given to their children between 18 months and 3 years of age, somewhere in there as I recollect. They were “breaking the will” of the child, and we were taught to expect that as parents. I’ve seen and heard the young children ages 4-6 being taught to box and fight each other viciously. And I’ve seen plenty of examples of public humiliation, and heard plenty that went on in the youth group. I’ve also read accounts by former students that would make your stomach ache and your heart cry for them. Is every detail true? Can I judge that? Enough stories from enough individuals conspire to make me believe the general truth of them. Plus in my own extended family I’ve witnessed how Fairhaven encourages people to treat any family members not on par with Fairhaven ideals as beneath them. There’s a disrespect and dishonor given to parents, and then there are multiple families pressured to cut off all ties to their children. Even when the children are in good churches, since they aren’t Fairhaven approved they are treated like heathens and sinners.
And can you defend the practice of “un-adopting” children? You know that has happened numerous times at Fairhaven, as even the report shows. I’m so glad God doesn’t un-adopt us when we fail to live up to his standards. I have seen, and may well share one example, of the man-centered, pragmatic leadership style that Roger Voegtlin uses. He manipulates, coerces, screams, yells, and gets his way — and that’s with the staff. I cannot respect that.
I’m trying to walk a careful line here, and I’m sure to offend someone. People are free to believe who they will.
I would tend to agree with some of your analysis. I did not attend Fairhaven regularly, but I’ve visited on numerous occasions, and I have a family member who currently attends.
While I do not believe some of the allegations (primarily the one about their ignoring someone’s claims of rape), I do know that they tend to do things to humiliate students. Spanking a student in front of the entire class is humiliating, and completely uncalled for. They also do shun people who do not attend their church or believe just as they believe. I’ve seen that happen on more than one occasion. I also know that people there are very intimidated by Dr. Voegtlin. He can’t even find a replacement as pastor when he retires, because no one wants to take on that responsibility, especially as he’ll still be in the mix and have some control.
They also expect members to spend most of their “free” time doing things for the church. I’m all about giving of your time, but when you have no time for your family, because you’re giving it all to the church, I have a problem with that. God established the family before he established the church. Balance is key.
Appreciate your sentiments, RH. And it is hard to judge how accurate all the stories are. But the ethos of Fairhaven does seem to be compatible with many of the stories, the humiliation, the parents spanking children for up to one hundred spankings in one session (or more), etc.
Thanks for dropping by,
Bob
I must question why everyone is saying that spanking in front of a class is humiliation. I call being open about what is happening. To take a child behind closed doors and spank them is absurd. Spanking in front of the class allows all to see what has just transpired and therefore there can be no lies or misinformation about the incident. It also is a deterent to anyone else who may be thinking about doing the same, whether cheating, lying, or whatever. Good thing CNN was not around when our Grandparents were young. Every school in the nation would have been in court for child abuse. Spanking is Biblical and even more severe when you consider a rod in Bible times as compared to a small paddle.
What in the world is going on with this story>? Every single website that features a video clip of the CNN story on Fairhaven has been removed? Well, did they have a story or not?
Apparently CNN took the video down, I’m trying to find it elsewhere. Perhaps Fairhaven’s lawyers stepped in or something. Which is crazy, if they went to the trouble to allow the interview to happen….
With many of these fanatical “Cults” they are well funded and lawyers swarm anything that will scar their reputation. As Islam and other religions have their own fanatical branches so does Christianity. People can twist anything around to make it fit their agenda. They can leave out parts of the teaching of God that don’t fit their underwritten agenda or twist it to fit. New Testatment and Old Testament teachings change since God sent our deliverance to him. His LOVE was sent not his fury his compassion not his wrath. The teachings and message changed because now hope was sent to deliver us from ourselves. The prodigal son wasn’t beat into submission he was let go to discover himself and God in his own time and own FAILURES AND SHORTCOMINGS. When he discovered this he was welcomed with open arms and rejoicing. GOD gave us free will because TRUE LOVE is loving something or someone on your own accord not having it beat into you that you must.
Come on, Bob.
Last night, CNN became the FFF. Gary Tuchman showed himself to be a tabloid reporter. He did not do his homework.
The whole “I have heard enough first-hand accounts from people who grew up at Fairhaven or people who interacted with those who did, that I have begun to believe the tales of tragic physical abuse” argument is conventient at best, but more likely irresponsible and ungodly on your part.
I have staff members who grew up in the Fairhaven youth group, some of whom went on the Mexico trip. I have family members who grew up in the Fairhaven youth group, and went on the Mexico trip. I have close associates in the ministry who grew up at Fairhaven and went on the Mexico trip. Most of those people no longer live in Indiana. They tell a different story.
You are really stretching here.
I do agree with you that this story is a stretch, and some of the allegations are bogus. I do have issues with the church/school in general, however. I don’t like the apparent control Dr. Voegtlin has over his members. I always found it a bit cult-like. I know they do a lot of good work at the church, so I’m not condemning them, but I do have concerns about the way they discipline.
>I have staff members who grew up in the Fairhaven youth group, some of whom went on the Mexico trip.
Come on Bob… Like whom? Jeff Voegtlin?
>I have family members who grew up in the Fairhaven youth group, and went on the Mexico trip.
Dare them to come forward with their different story. Also dare them to come forward and tell everyone what Jeff Voegtlin told them in the church balcony 8+ years later in his apology for what he did on the trip to those they called in the balcony that were on the trip and still at the church.
> I have close associates in the ministry who grew up at Fairhaven and went on the Mexico trip. Most of those people no longer live in Indiana. They tell a different story.
There are even many women who were girls at the time that saw the faces smashed up swollen after the Mexican Incident. You want to listen to a ‘different side’ of the story, as if a small fact that can be disagreed on can be used to discredit the entire story.
If it was publicly known what the staff knew, what Jeff apologized for, and all the stories even from the ‘other side’ it would be nothing short of criminally prosecutable. Save for the fact that Jeff for some reason waited to apologize to the people he had do the beating (no apologized to those he had beat up) until after the statute of limitations was up.
Are these people so cowardly to not come forward with their “side” of the story? How about Jeff tell his side of the story? How about the confrontation between McNeilly and son with Roger in the hallway come out in the open? You know, the one where McNeilly openly confronted Roger about the Mexican Incident. There was shouting about it? Witnesses? Hmmm.. Wonder how Roger on CNN tells the world he knows nothing about any Mexican Incident.
You are part of the coverup.
You say: “The whole “I have heard enough first-hand accounts from people who grew up at Fairhaven or people who interacted with those who did, that I have begun to believe the tales of tragic physical abuse†argument is conventient at best, but more likely irresponsible and ungodly on your part.”
I say: The whole “I have heard enough first-hand accounts from people who grew up at Fairhaven or people who interacted with those who did who were on the Mexican Trip, that I have begun to not believe the tales of tragic physical abuse  is convenient at best, but more likely irresponsible and ungodly on your part.
Jake,
One clarification, the quotes you are rightly objecting to, were made by Dave Mallinak not Bob. I’m Bob, and Dave was arguing against my position. I agree with your comments and arguments. It is Dave who doesn’t agree.
Thanks for dropping by,
Bob Hayton
By the way, I can’t believe CNN didn’t bring out the part about the tanks under the lake, and the vault with the bazookas. They missed a golden opportunity on that one.
UPDATE: Here is a link to the transcript of the segment (scroll down 2/3 of the way on the page to the relevant portion).
Since I grew up there, I think I can share some of my firsthand experience. Since you guys don’t believe the allegations of sexual abuse, I know for a fact it is true, and he is NOT the only boy that was sexually abused. One of the Molesters gets to sing in front of the church every Sunday. Of course Roger Voegtlin knows about it. The mans name is Scott Bollinger. As far as physical abuse: making a child eat a 5pound bag of chex mix in 1 hour for throwing a sandwhich away; making a teenage boy run through a gauntlet of belts (of course they used the belt buckle end). Let me know if this is not enough for you to believe. I was harassed by Becky Damron for passing out on a teen trip, instead of seeking me medical attention, she told me I “faked” passing out and I was a rebel. I have a heart condition and could have died. My Cardiologist will attest to this. The mental abuse is the worst: being told that the only place you can be right with God is at Fairhaven Baptist Church (this is so untrue, there are many great churches); if you leave Fairhaven Baptist church your life will be destroyed/ruined (I heard this countless times, my life is not ruined, I have found a loving church and am learning the love of God, since all I have ever known is the fear of God).
On another note, the Damrons though the girls in highschool were getting “fat” so Becky Damron started weighing us in every Saturday at there house. For one, this is NOT there place to do this, it is the job of the parents. Two, I was told to loose 15 pounds even though I only weighed 125 pounds. Thats a bit much don’t you think? Not every one needs to be a size 0. If you want more stories, I will be more than happy to supply them. I don’t hate God, I hate the abuse that is done in HIS name. I am not saying all IFB churches are bad, I just know the abuse that goes on at this particular one.
Alison,
Thanks for sharing. And I’m most happy that you’re in a church learning the love of God.
So many people will just say it’s your account versus someone else’s story, and in doing that they lose sight of the many real lives that are tragically messed up and basically thrown away as trash by this system. You grew up there and I didn’t, so I take your word for it. Even if someone thinks that one of these stories is fabricated or stretched, there are so many other stories that I can’t help but believe it.
On Facebook, Catherine, the adopted daughter of Roger Voegtlin, quoted Roger as often saying to her and Frank, when he was getting ready to spank them. “You will FEAR me more than you love me.” That’s the quote from Catherine. How tragic is that approach to discipline of your children.
I felt for the way you guys were treated there, but I was caught up in the system when I was there and just looked the other way, choosing to trust the staff. I hope this CNN incident will wake up some of the people there that are in similar shoes to what I was in, when I was there.
May the love of Jesus, and His grace surround you, especially at this time when painful memories are being reawakened.
Blessings in Christ,
Bob Hayton
I can also attest to the weigh ins. At least when I attended, girls were weighed in twice a semester. If they didn’t pass weigh in, they didn’t pass PE. Laxatives, purging, jogging around that doggoned lake over and over again while bundled in layers upon layers of culottes and sweatshirts and handfuls of water pills were rampant. Hello bulimia.
Alison, I am with you. I was tall and stocky but never overweight in HS yet the PE teacher made me feel I was fat. She would say things like oh there are no more 3 lb weights so you can use the 8 lb ones your big enough. Can I tell you my lower back protests to this day over that statement.
Just a note to the wise: self image about weight is one of the biggest problems parents and teachers face in HS students. Why is it then that the teachers are not makeing it easier for students to love thier bodies?
I understand selective memory plays in when we’re dealing with stories years old, but there should be one thing that could be verified. Dave Malinak you’re even corroborating this. You knew about the Mexico trip and the allegations surrounding it, before this video piece by CNN. That to me lends itself toward proving that if you knew about the allegations, Roger Voegtlin certainly did. But he’s on record as stating that: “I have never heard that story…. Because I don’t know. I wasn’t there.”
Either he’s being extremely crafty in his wording “that story” as in Darcell’s particular detail of it, or he’s lying. He gave the impression he knew nothing about the Mexico trip at all, but that’s not what seems to be the case.
Bob,
To start, Pastor Mallinak especially has been at the front of exposing the types of things that Jocelyn Zichterman talks about, the sexual abuse of pastors, preying pastors. He wrote lengthy articles before she started doing anything on this. You should link to them—they were very good. He was unequivocal and clear. He has dealt with this kind of thing in his own experience and has exposed it and dealt with it. Nothing got swept under the rug.
My knowledge of the story is that young staff members (mainly 22-24 yrs of age) went over the line of propriety in a more military boot camp style of setting. They were acting in a manner that would be consistent with what I know occurred at a similar time in our own military. How did these staff members learn these things? From men who were their own leaders who served in the military. My knowledge also says that later they gave a public apology to those on the trip in the balcony of the church auditorium. That was not enough for many people. They wanted more punishment than that. Perhaps more punishment was deserved, but it is an autonomous church. That’s how they chose to handle it. I’m sure they learned some things from the experience. Love, however, bears all things.
Hollywood has made movies about what drill sergeants did and have done to recruits, and most people in the United States look on it unflinchingly. Men consider that part of military discipline. The Mexico trip, I’ve heard, wasn’t a trip for girls. Many times the ones who can’t cope in these settings are considered soft and undisciplined. Some can’t cut it in those scenarios. Later if you interviewed them, they might even claim that they were abused and mistreated. Maybe they were, but some think the harsh training of the Army Rangers and the Navy Seals are good. Most people just ignore those claims. The group of people who would see them as credible is increasing. I’m around a lot of those types here in the Berkeley area of the San Francisco Bay Area.
Most of us would not want our worst moments to play themselves out in front of national television. Do you think that would be helpful for you, Bob? Do you want everyone to know the worst things about you, that you’ve done, like what you do in pointing those things out about these people? You are a difficult critic to take seriously, because it seems that you’ve got a grudge that you are holding, that you are blaming others for things that happened to you. To establish yourself with your new group, you have to trash the old one. It doesn’t come across very well to me.
I look at Jocelyn Zichterman and she has let her own brother’s name stay out of the news. Why is he off limits, but the others she targets are not? She says they have great courage, constantly pointing out the courage of these others who blow the whistle on their accused. But she leaves her own names out of the picture. It’s not that we have to have her tell those names, but if courage is about exposing those who harmed you, why are they not exposed to the extremes that these others are?
I’ve criticized Fairhaven. Fairhaven knows that. They haven’t cut me off when I’ve criticized them, even harshly. I have their best interests in view, I believe. You just talk about them. You don’t go to them. Is that how you like things to be? You say that it’s because you know they wouldn’t listen to you. And the idea is that they wouldn’t listen because they don’t listen. They listen when I talk to them. You had lost credibility with Fairhaven before you went to Calvinism, booze, and rock music. Has Fairhaven done a public expose of you? If you are going to be fair, you’ll leave this comment up.
I wouldn’t spank children in public like Fairhaven, but that’s how schools did it in most of the early history of the United States, right in front of other students, as a means of deterrence and shame. Shame is a tool that God uses too. I wish Dr. Voegtlin has given a better answer than habit, but anyone who knows him knows he isn’t gifted there. Our family has watched Little House on the Prairie together, and students are constantly shamed in public in that classroom, called to the front and put their nose in the corner. Let’s be honest, was anyone outraged when they saw that take place? If not, then you are being hypocritical here to be outraged. Let’s be consistent.
Whatever is Godly about Fairhaven will last and whatever isn’t will not. Let’s hope the best for them.
I agree that we should hope the best for them. But what Roger Voegtlin did in saying in front of the camera that “he never heard that story” is a bald faced lie. Plain and simple. If a pastor in California already knows about the Mexico trip, then how on earth does Roger Voegtlin get to spin the truth to say he never heard that story. Could it be he heard something happened and chose to ignore it and not learn the details so he could have plausible deniability? I don’t know. But my reporting might be a lot different right now if he didn’t say that line.
As for military boot camp discipline, that is correct. It’s appropriate in certain scenarios and with 18 year olds and up. Some of those who were beaten up by the other teens in full knowledge of these young staff members, were barely 13. In court of law that is abuse.
As for Jocelyn, I’m sure she can fill you in if she wants. She just took me to task for still having Jason Janz as a Facebook friend, when truth be told I had forgotten I had him as a FB friend. I only learned of his abuse recently, but I believe it came up on the 20/20 report that her own father and brothers had abused her.
I heard that an apology was given to those who went on the trip. I think a bigger apology is needed for the entire church and those following them. There is a time to listen to critics, not every critic is out to kill and maim.
Just recently I read a comment on a forum that said: “Yes, my parents are still there (at Fairhaven) and have nothing to do with the five children they raised.” One of those kids was in the CNN report. Is that kind of treatment of your family really Biblical? Is abandoning children you legally adopted and treating them like threats, rather than wounded children who at the very least are confused and hurt and should be loved and wooed, rather than castigated and abandoned?
I’m glad that there are some pastors who are confronting Fairhaven. I feel that my past coupled with my blog and its history over the years, means my voice won’t be received well. Especially not after the few posts I’ve done this week. I’ve seriously tried to think the best about Fairhaven, but I’m at a loss with some of these stories, and the continued refusal to take ownership, admit wrong, and change the way they do things.
In my own extended family, I know of a young man who is infuriated over how Fairhaven, took a close relative of his in, and now she treats her family (who are committed IFB Christians) like dirt, almost never visits her family, and raises her children as good Fairhaven members do (punching gloves on 3 year olds and all). This man claimed (at one time) to have lost faith in all Baptists, and was on the verge of abandoning the faith altogether, in my opinion. This is just a bystander’s response to this kind of teaching on the family, which is so integral to Fairhaven’s DNA. And this is multiplied countless times.
I have it on good authority, that Roger Voegtlin made a snide remark to a couple who he just had married. He asked them what do you think your chances are of having your kids turn out? They didn’t know what to say. He answered for them with something to this effect: “You’re a [insert last name here] and you’re a [insert last name here]. I’d say your chances are 0.” That dismissive attitude and tone is unChristian. And my wife can attest that certain people in the college, and certain people in the church were just treated as better than others. Certain families were more approved than others. It was an ethos that was felt. And it isn’t right.
You can rationalize this all you want, the truth is that numerous kids, dozens and dozens, have not turned out the way Fairhaven wanted them to. And Voegtlin’s unique theology on Prov. 22:6 heaps loads of guilt on all these parents. They advocate that the staff and youth ministers can help these faltering and failing parents to get it right with their kids, and the poor people sit there and let them. They let their kids learn the Fairhaven way, and then when one of their kids stumbles and falls, they are asked by Fairhaven staff to shun their child until some proof of repentance is given. So 18 or 19 year olds get shut out of their parents’ homes with nothing and no one. Grandchildren grow up not knowing their grandparents at all, and somehow this is all in the name of Jesus Christ and the Gospel of God’s love. It makes me a bit mad, and I cannot keep it in.
I’m not going to trumpet this every week around here or anything, but the least I can do is put up a couple posts so people know about these problems, and then try to think through things as far as how the Bible would have us think about raising our kids. I need to think through it for myself and process all this. Anyway, I’ve said enough….
I sincerely hope this story goes back up. I attended exactly one year at Fairhaven (college). I can personally attest to the truth of the abuse by seeing it with my own eyes. I worked in the nursery one semester, and I changed a baby’s diaper. Her bottom was literally black across both buttocks. Horrified, I asked the nursery teacher what I should do. She said it wasn’t my business and to leave it alone. I couldn’t, so I went to the head of the nursery department, who also happened to be the college librarian. She told me parents had a right to discipline their children any way they saw fit. A one year old baby!!! And her bottom was black — not bruised, but blackened across both buttocks. Even now, years later, I have never seen bruising like I saw on that baby. I wish I’d known then about mandatory reporting laws and had gone to the police.
I can also vouch for what happened with Voegtlin’s adopted children.
Sick demented freaks at that school. All of them. I refused to go back another year.
Makes me even more upset, AA. Thanks for sharing your story. That’s part of the real sadness here. I used to think that the pastor would teach on spanking and get on parents’ cases about not doing it enough, and then certain parents would just not handle that well and lash out and be abusive. But now I think it is really a culture of abuse, one that would make it highly doubtful that anyone would turn someone in for abuse. One where people who had someone call Child Protective Services on them, would have the church help them in hiding their kids until they went away (another story I recently heard). A culture where staff members would openly talk about raising their young children and giving them spanking sessions of 15 spankings, and then the child doesn’t give in, so 15 more, and again and again for 45 minutes, an hour or more. That’s the culture that turns a blind eye to a one year old’s black bottom.
Now what does that kind of beating do to a one year old in their development? I worked on the youth group when I was in college, and I still remember some sad, far-off looks on young kids’ faces. And defeated, depressed attitudes that the ones who could never do enough to please, or always got themselves in trouble, had. Some of those kids are now living it up in the world, trying to find solace from the lost attention and love they should have had as children. Not to excuse their sin, but to sympathize with them just a bit.
But of course, AA, that’s just “your story”, and it’s easy to say it never happened, and how could you prove it did? That’s what irks me about this. Enough people with no real individual agenda at all, have spoken up and shared stories, that after enough of them, you have to believe that something is rotten in Denmark.
UPDATE: I found the video clip again, it was moved to another link and has a different name. See the top of this post again for the updated embedded video, with the link to the video on CNN.
I personally have witnessed and experienced many things there, horrific things; thus some of which I will not mention. Roger E. Voegtlin for starters is a habitual liar. He is the worst, most atrocious man I have ever met in my entire life, my entire life. He lies continuously in attempts to cover his trail of deception, tyrany, and fraud. I would like to start by asking Roger and his first lady, Sharon, “Where are all those so called strong Christian families and marriages you claim your church has built and continues to build? Where are all those wonderful families you always brag to the congregation at? Most have left and have left in many cases under destructive terms and with extremely negative results. The old timers that remain there are either disassociated from their children, as you are, or they are victims or perpetrators of your abusive heresies, dogmas, and ideologies, such as Grant, Bain, Gaus, Leslie, etc.
Frank’s experiences, for example are bold face lies on Roger E. Voegtlins part. You see, I attended Fairhaven between 1977- and 1992. You did beat him to a pulp, up and down his legs, lower back and buttock, to the point where he could hardly change during wrestling because of the pain he had in the blood welts. Remeber we wrestled together and Frank was far better behaved then your blood son Jeff; whom conducted himself atrociously and got away with it regularly. This done and seen on many occasions. “Another big lie of yours was you did not make him, Frank, wear a dress.” Hey, we all know this for a fact as we saw him parading around in a dress doing detention throughout the compound, in a dress, and he even did detention in the bus barn, in a dress, with Mr. Stockman. It comes as no surprise though that you still continue to lie, must be a “bad habit”, that is how you always have built this church, with lies and bad destructive habits.
We remember and will not forget. What about your x staff member, MB and yourself, whom beat their adopted child to the point of having bloody welts all over the upper legs, lower back and buttock? You see, when the kids squirm from pain, REV, says it is rebellion so they cut lose even more and begin beating the kids all over. We are trying to find old sermon tapes that prove this. This particular child was spit upon and punched in the face by step mom, “evil witch”, and to imagine her husband is an evangelist today. She punched this child so much she broke the child’s nose. The back of this child was beat so badly that three disks had to be removed from lower back and replaced with plates and screws. The doctors, btw, say it resulted from trauma and not wear or genetics.
What about the lie of telling CNN, on national television, you did not have any prior knowledge of the Mexico Mission’s trip beatings and abuses? Well, we know for sure you have known for about 5 years at least. Most likely longer as you and your minions like bragging to one another about this kind of sick stuff. It was all over the internet, even before that on the IFF. Don’t you recall you and Mr. M. having a heated argument in the hallway when he gained knowledge of the incident ten years later, as he was upset for this being kept secret for ten years and even being kept secret from parents; hence making the boys lie to their parents telling them they fell down some stairs in Mexico; thus provoking them to lie to their parents for ten years or else.. EVERYONE in the halls heard it. It was so dramatic that Mr. M. left cause he wanted no part of you and your children’s’ deception and heresies at Fairhaven.
Just remember, God is not mocked, whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap. Also remember whom the Lord Loveth he chasteneth. We rejoice in our chastisements from God, as this is evidence of our heirship; yet those whom are bastards receive not the chastisements of our great God because they are bastards, as in non sons and daughters of God. However God’s wrath pours against the unjust in due season.
Victor, we must have been something of contemporaries. I was there during the 1991/92 school year.
Hi Victor,
I am Andrea (Leslie) Speckhals. My family (Leslies) is one of the “old timers that remain there are,” which you mentioned, but my parents are not at all “disassociated from their children…victims or perpetrators of…abusive heresies,” as you said. Please do not prattle on in anger and bitterness about things you hardly know about.
Praise the Lord I married a wonderful Christian man who I met at Fairhaven Baptist College. We are currently extremely happy serving the Lord at a likeminded IFB (to use your crowd’s lingo!) church in PA. My sister is very happy teaching at a Christian school in the West, and my brother is also happily married to a great Christian girl, and serving the Lord at Fairhaven. Lindsey –remember her?–my little delightful Down’s Sydrome sister attends school at Fairhaven, where she is accepted and loved like she never would be at any public school. She really likes her teachers and classes there, and also serves the Lord doing odd jobs around the campus –which, I might add, she LOVES doing! And so, we are all very happy, not disgruntled, not disassociated from one another, but extremely thankful for our God’s goodness to us especially through the ministry of Fairhaven.
I also wrote a post about being a “Fairhaven Survivor” on our (my husband and I) website. Please do visit, and read the whole story! http://www.beinstant.com
I’m not entirely sure what you’ve been taught about the public school system. I spent nearly my entire life in Christian schools, so I too have always been leery of PS. But when it comes to students with special needs, they are often far better equipped to provide for their needs than anywhere else (notice I said often, not always).
I will say I read some of these accounts of the Academy with trepidation, since I have a son on the high functioning end of the spectrum. He faces an uphill battle as it is, with frequent outbursts that look a lot like tantrums, uncontrollable tics, etc. I can guarantee he’d have been subjected to daily beatings. He’s largely the reason I home school. He thrives here at home. I don’t know that he’d do as well anywhere else, not even in PS, because he gets so anxious in groups.
I don’t remember you, but I remember your mom. She was my dorm supe, and she seemed to be a good lady. But the pictures you chose are not the best to represent you and prove your point. You all seem so sad in them. I’ve pictures of myself that look that way, before I had therapy, before my many emotional wounds were healed. I was so empty, so sad, but always smiling outside.
God’s so good, so kind, so loving. There’s a God of judgment, to be sure, but more than anything, He’s a good, kind, and loving God. I wish everyone could know the God I know. He’s done so much for me …
I removed Jake’s comment. We can state an opposing opinion to Andrea’s without being so uncivil and “in your face” about it. We need to be careful lest we fight fire with fire and use methods of conversation which do not glorify God and are not charitable to Christian brothers and sisters commenting here. Please be advised of my commenting policy. Thank you.
Redo:
> I am Andrea (Leslie) Speckhals. My family (Leslies) is one of the “old
> timers that remain there are,†which you mentioned, but my parents are
> not at all “disassociated from their children…victims or perpetrators
> of…abusive heresies,†as you said. Please do not prattle on in anger
> and bitterness about things you hardly know about.
Hey Andrea your dad was directly involved with the beatings and
waterboardings of teens in Mexico, witness to them and participated in
the coverup.
It is not bitterness or anger that is causing people to stand up
against the criminal actions such as your father partook of during the
Mexico trip.
> And so, we are all very happy, not disgruntled, not disassociated
> from one another, but extremely thankful for our God’s goodness to
> us especially through the ministry of Fairhaven.
Operative word in what he originally said was ‘or’. Disgruntled,
disassociated ‘or’ perpetuators. By your Dads involvement in the
Mexican Incident of the brutal abuse of young teens, he is a
perpetrator of abusive heresies by any standard.
> Please do not prattle on in anger and bitterness about things you
> hardly know about.
Maybe you are the one misinformed, you might need to talk to your dad
and get all the details of the mexico trip before you come in here
standing by him. There might be some things that you don’t know about.
If you do get the entire truth from him, I would ask you to ask him to
come in here and tell us the entire truth play by play. If he is not
guilty of anything, there will be nothing to hide, and only good can
come out of it, and it will be a first step in getting his name
cleared, and the people responsible in prison.
If he will not want to come in here, please have him send along his
statement with you to post in here on his behalf. Most of us don’t
want to hear about how nice of a guy Sam or your dad are, that is just
fluff. It is not a popularity contest, we just are trying to get down
to the facts.
> And I even was present on that Mexico Trip of 1997. For all the
> criticisms and allegations and bitterness that are taking place
> right now regarding that trip, I wonder if anyone remembers the trip
> how I do –?
> I remember a trip where I fell in love with the Mexican people,
> where I treasured every word of Spanish I could learn, where I heard
> good, Bible messages, and was challenged from the Word of God almost
> every day –a trip I was sad to see end. I wonder if my friends
> remember any of those things about that Mexico Trip?
I think if you had to brush your teeth with a toothbrush with urine on
it, get beaten to a pulp by your fellow girls, waterboarded and
gagging, urinating in your dress and over the dresses of the other
girls under your chair that you were forced to sit in. If you had
black pigment in your skin and you were called a nigger by Jeffy, and
you were spanked on your bare rear end in front of the other girls and
adult women You might also remember the trip a little different.
I can be harsh in my criticism, but the blatant pollyanna style,
‘can’t we just get along, God is love, forget and forgive’ attitude by
all of the Fairhaven supporters, such as yourself is not only wrong,
it is very disingenuous.
If what was done to Darcel and the rest of the boys was done to you
and your sisters in any other situation, say by the staff and other
teens at the YMCA. Your father, Stockman, Bain and the rest of them
would have opened their gun cabinet and there would have been violence
in seeking out justice at the perpetuators. Anyone telling them that
they are bitter, and need to forgive and forget, or telling them that
it did not happen, and to shut up with the allegations would be called
down and accused of being part of the coverup.
The fact that assault and battery and what amounts to torture of a
teen is taken so lightly, shows the culture of abuse.
I would like to ask you to make a public statement, which I have asked
Mallinak and others, and to date they cut and run, and state on other
forums that they are just attacked for ‘asking questions’.
Please make a statement clarifying the following facts:
1) I believe that any Pastor that would run children through a
gauntlet on his instructions to get bloody and pants torn has
committed a great sin and a criminal felony.
2) Any adult supervisor whom participates, guides, condones, or covers
up actions testified to happening on the Mexico Incident should go to
prison for those crimes. I am not saying all that has been told is
true, I am saying that IF it is true, they should all go to prison.
3) Those same adults are permanently disqualified from a Christian
Leadership position, including working with Children, being Deacons
etc, and any other church involvement will be considered as a regular
member, after they have served prison time for any crimes, confessed
to their sin in front of the church, asked forgiveness of the
congregation for the crimes they committed in their name while in
their service, and apologized to everyone privately and publicly whom
was victimized.
4) Any pastor or deacon whom was made aware of these things at the
time and covered them up is also guilty of a sin against god for
covering up sin and legal crimes. They are also guilty of breaking
other felony laws such as not reporting violent abuse of children.
5) These same pastors, deacons and ‘Preacher’ should be held
accountable to the entire church, the state for their crimes and now
the extended churches, sister churches, missionaries, IFB churches and
others whom they have hurt the cause of Christ, and also lied to them
in their participation and denying the crimes.
6) If the the allegations are false, the dozens of witnesses are
proven to be lying, then, they themselves are guilty of false witness
etc, and they should apologize to all that are accused at minimum.
7) If the allegations of the Mexico Trip are true, I stand by the
victims, including against my father if he was involved as is in your
case, against my son, if he was involved (as is the case with Roger
and his son Jeffy and son-in-law Damron).
Making statements such as this would be congruent with your professions of faith and love and Christianity, and at least humanity.
Why does this seem to be so difficult for all of you?
What I have to say here really belongs under the new post (“The Mexico trip”), but unfortunately you are not allowing comments there. So I will answer here.
First, what happened on the Mexico trip was wrong. Plain and simple. It should not have happened. There is no excuse for it. I will not be making any here.
Those who were responsible on that trip agree with what I just said, they have taken responsibility, and they have acknowledged their fault in this, both publicly and privately. They dealt with this as a church. That is as it should be.
I have never discussed the Mexico trip with Dr. Voegtlin. I cannot speak for him, nor would I. I cannot speak for Steve Damron or Jeff Voegtlin. Nor would I. I do not believe that they owe the world an explanation. This is a church matter, and should be dealt with in that context. I believe that it has been, based on multiple conversations I have had with Pastor Damron, with Pastor Voegtlin, with those in my own family who were teenagers at the time, with those in my church who were teens and on that trip, and with others outside of my church who were involved.
Proverbs 18:13 says, “He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.” I hope that you will hear another side to this issue.
When I was first told about the Mexico trip, nothing was concealed. It was not long after the trip – within the following year. I was told about the military-style workout, that the worst offenders among the teens were set in the middle and fed snacks and given drinks while the other boys worked out. I was told that the boys were then left alone, and what happened when they were left alone. There was no attempt to conceal anything, nor would there have been any reason to conceal anything. We were not conspiring to hide something. Two of the leaders on that trip (Pastor Damron and Pastor Voegtlin) are two of my very closest friends in the world. I heard of the trip from them, and when they told me, they themselves said that they were wrong.
On that basis, what reason would I have to go on the Internet and condemn them for it? What reason would I have to conduct a further investigation, or to run a campaign against them? They told me what they had done. It sounded as bad as what it was. I agreed with them. It was wrong.
As far as I knew, it was taken care of. From what they said to me, they thought that it was taken care of as well. As I recall (and I am digging into 15-year old memories of a conversation), they were surprised that not more parents were angry about it. I think they were prepared for more negative reaction, and certainly were ready to own their fault.
I heard nothing of that trip for ten years. What brought it up ten years later was a conversation that Pastor Jeff Voegtlin had with two of his students who were teens on that trip, one of those two being the one who probably caught the worst of the deal. In the course of that conversation, Jeff realized that some had not gotten over what happened there. He immediately met with the pastoral staff, and they decided that Jeff should meet with the families involved in order to seek a resolution of what had happened. The point here is that Jeff sincerely wanted to own his fault in this, and to make things right.
No doubt some will criticize the fact that ten years later, they were ignorant of the fact that many were offended by this. Or worse yet, that it took them ten years to realize that people were still offended. I suppose that this criticism is warranted. But when they realized it, they dealt with it. They did not evade anything. They stepped up and they said, “we were wrong.”
Ironically, after they apologized, there was unleashed a torrent of criticism against them by a handful of people who are still angry about what happened and how it was handled. The Internet has been and is filled with accounts and “discussions” from those who cannot or will not get over it. And then CNN entered the picture.
Bob is criticizing Dr. Voegtlin for his answer to Gary Tuchman’s question regarding Darcel. Here is what Bob says:
Now, I already know that Bob will not find my answer acceptable, and I already know that the 10 people interviewed by CNN will not find my answer acceptable. But it is the answer nonetheless.
When I heard Darcel’s account of drinking until his belly was swelled way out, until he was puking and puking and puking and then somebody put the senior’s shirts under him, and he wet all over himself and puked all over himself, that was a first for me. I had not heard that part of the story.
So, I called the people I knew who were involved in the trip, and asked them if they had ever heard that story. They had not.
Again, I have not called Dr. Voegtlin. But when he says that he had not heard that story, I do not believe that he was lying. There are actually quite a few people who had not heard that story.
Now, I understand that by giving this account, I have opened myself to some angry answers from people like Jake Ace (David Gonzales, with a not-so-thinly veiled, FFF-style way of saying “Jack Ass”). Have at it if that is what floats your boat. The longer Bob allows this to continue, the more this site turns into the FFF anyway.
But nonetheless, it is worth it to me to point these things out and to say that this is not the way the story was “spinned” to me as part of some kind of “damage control.” There has been no attempt to spin the events. Whenever the subject has come up, they have been forthright. And by the way, when I heard what Darcel said, I wanted to know if that really happened.
The larger question here is, what can be done to make things right. Is this an issue to be dealt with on the Internet and in Forums like the FFF? Or is this an issue to be dealt with by the church?
As a pastor, I have found myself thinking long and hard about that question. What would I do if a couple of over-zealous young youth workers thought that a Marine-corps style workout would be an appropriate way to deal with gross misbehavior on a youth trip? How would I deal with it later?
No doubt there will be anonymous posters like AA or BB who will say that I should take them to jail. But I don’t think so. I believe that the right thing to do after a thorough investigation would be to rebuke, require a public apology and reconciliation, and to put some oversight in place in order to ensure this same thing never happens again. Naturally, if those youth leaders grew belligerent about the issue, or if they lied to cover up what they did, then we would need to remove them from their position. But in a case where the youth leaders told the truth, and the appropriate steps were taken, I believe that the church then has a duty to be reconciled.
Unfortunately, what has happened in this case is that a handful of people refuse to let go of this and be reconciled. I say this with much sorrow and shame, but some of those that were interviewed by CNN have, within the last year made statements to Fairhaven Baptist Church that they are a wonderful church, and have expressed their gratitude for what they received while there. Some of those who were interviewed have discussed the Mexico trip personally with Pastor Damron or Pastor Jeff Voegtlin, and have told them that all was forgiven. And in at least one case, that conversation took place in the recent past.
Bob, how can you justify a person forgiving a wrong, after receiving an apology for it, and then going on national television to tell the world what was done to them? This goes against everything that the Bible says, and that you say you stand for. Imagine if that were done to you.
I have more to say about the CNN episode itself. Obviously, the Mexico trip took up only a tiny segment of the overall episode. But it is equally obvious that the Mexico trip is your focus. There is still much to address from the interviews themselves, and I intend to get to that.
Meanwhile, I hope that all here will give fair consideration to what I have said. You may call me if you like, or send me an e-mail.
Dave,
You can share your side of the story, I delayed approving the comment because I hadn’t had a chance to get to it with other things going on.
I don’t intend to keep harping on this subject, nor become the FFF. But I’m letting people share their opinions here. If Fairhaven really admitted the problems at the Mexico trip when they did, per your report, why not mention that on air? I struggle with that. I also struggle with Dr. McNeilly confronting Roger Voegtlin about the Mexico trip being hidden in some way, according to his son’s account. And things said in a deacon’s meeting not matching the truth. Was a public admisison of wrong doing done when the details of the Mexico trip came out within a year of it? The children who were there say there wasn’t any such admission.
People here have witnessed the result of the spanking Frank Voegltin alleged happened, and Voegtlin denied. See Victor’s comment above.
I heard staff myself advocate breaking the will of a child, saying as parents you should expect to have a few sessions where you are spanking your child for 45 minutes to 2 hours. That was what was taught. 3 swats in school is one thing, the teaching about raising children, and the story of the one year old’s bruising (also above), ring true from my experience there. I’m sure some parents went beyond what was taught, but I sat through many sessions where Voegtlin berated parents for not doing enough. He’s encouraging them to get hard on their kids.
I think some of this is well intentioned from thoughts that this is how Proverbs is best applied, but this has horrible consequences, and in my opinion now is just plain abuse.
Sure it should have been dealt with as a church, but it apparently wasn’t dealt with, now, was it. When a longstanding deacon resigns when the light is exposed on this trip, that should be an indication that the church didn’t deal with it.
The story is public now. That is when I have posted about it, not sooner. Do you personally, or don’t you personally, teach your congregation to raise children in a manner where 2 and 3 year olds should have their will broken, through prolonged spanking sessions? I think you teach something very similarly to Fairhaven on this, and I think you are wrong. Stay tuned for the posts where I hope to discuss spanking more, in the abstract.
I welcome you to have an opinion, but I don’t share that opinion. I think there is more to the story than is being told, and Fairhaven would do well to be more transparent and open if they hope to save face in this.
I will link your comment from the Mexico trip post, so people can see another side to this. But I’m not going to drag this out into a long and protracted debate.
From my understanding, there is nothing wrong with posting anonymously. I do so for a number of reasons, but if it calls my honesty into question, I give the site administrator my express permission to share my email address with you.
That said, yes, if one of my sons had been on that missions’ trip, I most certainly would have called the police and insisted that the matter be dealt with in a court of law. Churches deal with spiritual matters, and what happened in Mexico was not a spiritual matter — very, very far from it. It was a criminal matter. It was a matter for the courts. And if it could not be handled in U.S. courts, then I would have ensured it was dealt with in Mexican courts.
That’s not vindictive, though you may feel so. It’s just. I would do the same with anyone or anything that hurt my children. It’s what a good mother does.
My name is Allen Golden, I attended Fairhaven Baptist Academy, grade school, High School, and College (1976-1988). I was a part of the youth group, sports teams, and all activities. In all my years at Fairhaven, I have to say, these were some of the best years of my life. I have taken what was taught and applied it to my life. I Pastor a small church in Missouri, but I also work as a deputy juvenile officer. I work with the abused and neglected children in our area on a daily basis; I have to say what is being called abuse is far from what I deal with on a daily basis. Sure we got spanked in front of the class. Not once did I feel as if I was being humiliated. These were the rules. If you received ten demerits for breaking the rules, when the principal made his weekly rounds you received three swats. This form of discipline was explained to both children and parents when the school year began. There was no prejudice, if you wanted to be a clown and break rules, swats was the consequence. When a student got into high school they did not get swats, they worked an hour detention for every five demerits they received. My Senior year, I can’t recall working detention; by this time I new the rules and I chose not to break them. What Dr. Voegtlin has taught over the years in regards to the family and raising your children, I believe to be spot on. Consistency is the key. Many parents like to threaten their children over and over, when the children don’t listen the parent then lash out in a fit of rage; this is when the abuse occurs. Most teens will go through a faze in their life where they want to press the rules; I went through this faze. I became rebellious and hated my parents and Fairhaven for making me do things I did not want to do, I was expelled from school. In my rebellion I was glad to be gone from that place, but I quickly realized how miserable I was. I probably would have been considered one of those children that would not have been accepted back and black balled; I didn’t care, I had to make things right for my own peace of mind. I made things right with God, my parents and the church. I did not care if I was accepted back with open arms or if I was told to leave and never come back; I did this so I could have peace with myself. To my amazement, I was accepted back with open arms. The reason people leave and feel like they have been alienated is because they, in rebellion chose to stay away. Bitterness begins to grow in ones heart; and three swats with a paddle, in ones mind, turns into a life of beatings and abuse. I am not saying that people may have been wronged or mistreated. I don’t know every ones story, but what is being said about Fairhaven is not what I have experienced. If some form of abuse had taken place, it’s because someone took things into their own hands, and disciplined in their own way. Beating a child black and blue is not Christian, it is not Godly, and it not the way Fairhaven teaches discipline to be administered. I will stand with Dr. Voegtlin and Fairhaven Baptist Church. I don’t believe a few people with bitter hearts should ruin a work that has done so much to help thousands through the years.
You’ll see pastor’s frequently defending Fairhaven as they must. Should they do any differently, it would mark them as rebellious and detrimental to the movement. As a pastor or missionary you do not want to be marked as being detrimental to the movement as it would have severe negative consequences on such an individual. Thanks for being honest in telling us you are a pastor Allen. The fact that Fairhaven made Allen Golden and I sell candy for nearly two months out of the school year is abusive in and of itself. Making me dig ditches in the hard clay for two weeks straight while missing school was abusive in and of itself also, thus physically abusive. I saw as well as Allen Golden, Frank in a dress and Frank with bloody whelps all over his hind end, upper legs and lower back. They were so severe, the boys whom had such wounds could hardly change during wrestling or gym because of the extreme pain and sensitivity in the whelps. Allen was a wrestler with us as well, as he always seemed distant and brainwashed by these folks, a yes um type of person. His best friend as I recall was Jeff Voegtlin. He by bno means was an outcast. The outcast were the thinkers, not the non thinkers. They never beat me as such, probably out of fear that I might do something worse to them, but I frequently saw them bully the helpless. I know of two, whom were beat so badly, doctors tell them they had three ruined disks from trauma, earlier in life; so you go figure, my guess is pastors are being told to post here in defense of this antichrist, R.E.V. He lied about Frank’s severe beatings and Franks bloody whelps; also about The Mexico Mission’s Trip, so why would you even begin to defend this liar Allen? Mr. Mc Neilly had the [courage] to stand up to him and here you come trying to defend in indefensible. His defense was so strong he left over the lies of the Mexico Mission’s trip. Besides you are so far removed from that church, and haven’t the faintest idea what is and has been going on since the Voegtlin Dynasty has taken this church over. Now you have a bunch of ingrates running the house of God.
Victor, edited your post slightly to try to stay PG rating here. It’s my house after all.
Also, note to all, I am fine with people disputing or debating in the comments of my blog, but lets not let it get personal or ugly. Please take care to be charitable, even if the discussion runs on a very touchy subject. Just stepping in as a moderator a bit. Have to take care to be fair to all, as best as I can. Thanks, ~Bob
Dave Mallinak says he talked to Dameron and Veogtlin, and they admitted to the wrong. Now they just need to go to the authorities and admit that brutal beating was wrong. Iguess Dameron, can admit that he instigated it and danced on Tommy’s stomach also, further perhaps he should step down, before he is removed as he no longer qualifies fore this ministry. THe man is obviously reckless as his Father in law, R.E.V. is. He needs to go to the state police and admit to them what he did so he can serve some prison time and let Bubba dance all over him there. DOnt you find it commical and ironic these two fairhaven buddies come in here trying to defend Roger and his minions. Well, we know it is not over until the fat lady sings, and she has not sung yet, but she will, once again.
what did you take out that was not pg, I do not recall putting anything in that was not.
Maybe it’s just my sensibilities… “…had the b**** to…”
Also I removed an accidental duplicate post.
arent you the one joselyn said was still friends with Jeff is so yuck let me get out of here.
Not anymore. If you want the explanation, let me know. But I’m not endorsing him in any way. I think Jocelyn is just misunderstanding me. I don’t disavow all IFB churches as abusers and complicit in the abuse. But I stand against the hyper-fundamentalism, and have left the IFB personally. I’m happy to help people grow and change, even in small ways, and just want to help.
was it the word balls? If so I see, you are one of those pharisaical type and it would suite you well to go to Fairhaven if so.
I just try to be consistent with the rules for all kinds of commenters I get.
Plus that can make some write you off and not listen to the comment at all…. Anyway, no offense taken or anything.
well joselyn is a control freak for sure
She got into the habit of deleting my posts simply cause she did not like the attention they were getting, so I left her cult survivor page, realizing she was still stuck in the cult, trying to control the words and actions of people.
She got into the habit of deleting my posts simply cause she did not like the attention they were getting, so I left her cult survivor page, realizing she was still stuck in the cult, trying to control the words and actions of people.
The bottom line here is these ignoramouses do not understand, there is a time when the authority of the church is put aside and the secular law steps in. When someone breaks secular laws, they must face the piper, not the church. Certainly they do not qualify for the ministry any longer. Jeff, you know as well as I do,does not, nor ever did he, as for what he admitted in his letter, which everyone knows about.
The letter to some of those that went on the Mexico trip?
I want to admit something. When I played football at Maranatha Baptist Bible College in high school (academy) and college, they made me run. And it really hurt. And I couldn’t play if I didn’t run with the rest of the team. And it really hurt. And when we didn’t run hard, the coaches, would scream at us to humiliate us in front of the team. And they made me run and run and run and do push ups and sit ups and bear crawls and crab walks and it really hurt. I was in great pain when they made me run. One time I had a coach grab my face mask and twist it around so I would look at him in the eye. That really hurt. I was inflicted with pain constantly.
We had to run and run and run and it hurt, bad. We did drills where we had to run full speed into each other. We were taught to brutalize the other guy and pound him into the ground. Men got actual injuries. Tore their knee ligaments. One guy broke both his arms. Everybody had welts all over their bodies.
After a typical football game as quarterback, I had welts all over my back. The coaches expected me to keep playing. I even played with a huge knee brace for several games my senior year in high school. When I threw an interception I had fans from the stands scream at me and call me a dope and I was humiliated in front everyone. They made me feel horrible as a person because of a play that I did. I was just a kid. I was just a boy really.
They would practice us four times a day during the preseason football. They made us crawl on our hands. They made us roll around on the ground. They made us to exercises in the grass when the mosquitoes would come up and bite us all over the body. I should be using foul language right now to describe this, I guess, if I was a real Christian and man like some of the commenters on Bob’s blog. It was abusive!!!
During those practices, we were required to run up and down hills again and again and again. More than half of the fat boys threw up on that hill. And they still kept us practicing even though young people were throwing up again and again. Some drank so much water that they threw up again. They made us throw up like that. And we didn’t even do anything wrong like I’ve heard some people do and get punished for it. We weren’t even doing anything wrong, just being in bad shape when we started running on the hill. And people were throwing up and they showed no sympathy for us.
The next day we were sore all over our body. And we had bruises all over us. And sometimes we were swelled all over. It hurt bad. Very bad. All the coaches screamed at us. They didn’t curse like Bob’s commenters here do at people they are bitter towards, but they screamed and screamed sometimes right in our face.
I have friends who played at state schools who say they swore at you all the time and this was a regular practice. My son, who is at USMA, says that certain people use foul language there on regular basis and they yell at you and haze you and make you do very painful things. All the time during Beast Barracks. But it is normal to be cursed at in the state school athletic programs. And if you don’t do what they tell you to do, you get yelled at and humiliated all the time. Some of those coaches have the best teams in the country. I hope some of you will look into what they are doing. Don’t say anything about the language, because you’ve already crossed that line yourself and so you probably won’t get anywhere, but you might be able to stop coaches from doing this to their players.
I know for myself, it helped me to go through that kind of treatment, but maybe Anderson Cooper and others will be able to look into what’s happening in most sports programs across America.
This is something that occurred to me, and I wanted to be a part of sharing how I was abused as a child and boy and young man. Thank you.
You could opt out, anytime you wanted. Not a fair comparison. And it doesn’t cover all aspects of the abuse that was brought up, like the poor little one year old….
I don’t think so. I just wanted to play and have fun and those men bullied me when I was in high school. The other coaches ordered those players to pound me into the ground, and they often did. If I didn’t play, I would have been considered unmanly. What was I to do? Sometimes I wanted to give-up because of all the criticism and screaming, but I had to consider the alternative of quitting or just running away. It was a tough choice. And then there were the players themselves. Sometimes the coaches didn’t supervise the locker room very well and I got snapped with towels. The ends of wet towels, putting ugly welts on my body. Could have put out my eye. And then they herded us into big shower rooms and required us to shower. We all showered together in big shower rooms with no privacy. I had severe acne on my back and sometimes other young men called me names. I remember hearing that from adult fans in the basketball stands too. They would see acne on my shoulder and the fans would make derogatory comments about my shoulder. That’s in addition to constant screaming from many. And I wasn’t even doing anything wrong. I wonder what kind of treatment I may have gotten if I was doing something wrong.
I hadn’t even got started. I took piano lessons and I had people call me Liberace. No offense to those here who would find that a compliment, but that was a lot of pressure when I was called that by more than one person. It was abusive.
There is so much more that I can say about this. But thanks for letting me air it out here. Hopefully others will come forward.
Bob, you evidently have a bias here by your former association with Fairhaven and your animus against folks holding a KJV position. So, we must take that into consideration. Also, much of these allegations appear to be contrived or by folks who have an axe to grind with Fairhaven. On the other hand, I, personally, don’t think that Fairhaven has exercised the best wisdom and discretion but I don’t think they are child abusers. There are so many of these type of allegations surfacing that it’s hard to discern the truth in such murky waters. We must be cautious not to false accuse people or give credence to false allegations. However, we can ignore real abuse either. It’s so hard to know.
I worked for a local police department years ago in that area and during my training the staff told me that Fairhaven Church was a “cult” and that they had guns at the church. I grew up in the area as a child and people that have gone to Fairhaven Church said they hated it, because they were mean to the children. No as an adult still living in the area, it wouldn’t surprise me of any of these allegations. It’s about time someone did some research on this church. These poor kids now, and previous.
Victor, you must get your facts straight before you speak. I was not best friends with Jeff Voegtlin, I was best friends with Frank Voegtlin. I spoke of getting kicked out of school, this was because I grew bitter with all the story’s that was told me by Frank. I never saw proof of these things in which he told me,at this time I was just looking for an out. This is why I chose to make things right. I wasn’t sure who was telling the truth, but I knew I had to be right. Maybe if you had gotten things right before you were voted out of the church, you would have a different opinion. I know wrestlers had to wear pacifiers around their necks and things at times; but I can honestly say I don’t recall any boys wearing a dress. I do remember boys in the locker rooms who were bruised from beatings that was given them by their fathers, but Frank was not one of them. These were beatings from Fathers who were clueless as to how to raise their children. For you to say I am to far removed from there to know how the “Dynasty” has affected the place; you can’t possibly know what I am aware of. I know is as a teen, with a rebellious heart, I was received back. I was not chastised or ridiculed for what I had done, but was encouraged to grow in the love of God. It took me six years to bring me to the point of getting things right with Dr. Voegtlin. I know how bitterness can harden the heart, and Victor you sound like a man with a hardened, unforgiving heart. You said “They never beat me as such, probably out of fear that I might do something worse to them.” Maybe they never beat you, because this was not the way they treated kids. I will admit, Fairhaven was hard on us. They made us run, they pushed us, but this is why we were undefeated as a wrestling team for so many years. Selling candy was a choice, you did not have to sell. Most of us liked to sell candy, because it got us away from school, and the work. The school work had to be made up, but it broke up the monotony of the school year. I became a Pastor Ten years after I left Fairhaven. Being a Pastor has nothing to do with my stand with Fairhaven. I would stand behind them regardless, because they were good to me and for me. This has ballooned because there are several adults who could not get over the fact that they were told what to do as kids, now they are older they have a vendetta against some one who has been successful. I can not be the judge, neither should you, If these kids were wronged by Fairhaven then God be the judge, If they have a vendetta against Fairhaven Then let God be the judge. We need not judge and take a matter like this into our own hands.
I am not against spanking. However, if you spank a child hard enough to break a wooden paddle on their bottom, then you are spanking too hard. I saw this happen several times, and the worst part was the Principal would laugh about it. Tell me this isn’t abuse.
Allen Golden, best friends or not, my point is, you were good friends, and obviously because of your own words in defense of Fairhaven, you are still good friends. I never cared for the creep, Jeff. Besides, Kathy has a paper trail of admissions that lead back to all these creeps which discredits any credibility you may try to present for them or any credibility they may attempt to present. I think you are making a foolish stand by attempting to side with the obvious infidels. You know R.E.V. lied on national television. Are you that forgetful, that you cannot recall Frank being forced by R.E.V. to wear a dress. I know you remember the brutal beatings he gave those kids, bloody brutal back breaking beatings; thus medical records of some are incriminating evidences, which could be presented. As I recall, you were always trying to suck up to the Voegtlin family and you kept a safe distance from those that did not, as myself. Folks you see, Allen admitted he was a preacher, and these Fundamentalist preachers must support their peers at all cost; after all, it could cost them a job, a paycheck, or status with their peers. I would much rather not be a preacher, than to compromise eternal values as such. I am glad, I repeat, glad God never called me into the ministry, seeing the mess the independent Fundamentalists are in. They actually think Jesus is coming to fly them away from all this mess; hence they are thoroughly confused, as they will see the Great Tribulation come upon us and many will be the persecutors whom will be assigned positions by the antichrist himself, whomever that may be. II Thessalonians 2, and for this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, seeing they had pleasure in unrighteousness and loved not the truth in God Word.
Rolland you are correct, the modern day KJV says Easter, instead of Passover, fortunately, I have a 1611 version that says passover.
Sorry I admitted to being a Pastor, Victor. I did not know you grouped all Pastors into your opinions of Dr. Voegtlin. I am an Independent Baptist Preacher. That means that I am not paid by any convention or mother church. In matter of a fact, this is a ministry that God has called me into. If you noticed on my first post, I have to work a job. This is because the church that I pastor is not able to pay me a salary. This is fine with me because I am not in the ministry for a pay check or a pat on the back. I am in the ministry because God called me into this position, and I am proud of this calling. I believe that these things are blown way out of proportion. You say I have seen Frank bloody; I have not. Everything that I have heard so far is hear say. And every one that I have heard it from has had a falling out from Fairhaven. Im just trying to give my perspective as a Christian. Me being a Pastor has nothing to do with it. Again, I reiterate, I am not saying that nothing has happened, I do not know every ones situation or what they have gone through. I’m just saying that I grew up their, I did not see the things that are being said, and I don’t appreciate people saying that I did see them because I was there. I just know, from my own testimony, that I was rebellious at one time, and I also had a hatred for the place. Not because of what they did, but the way in which it was done. When I got my heart right with God, God gave me a better understanding of why things were done the way they were. Life is hard, we all know that. God takes us through hard times to strengthen us for hard times to come. This is the philosophy that is being taught. Again, I do not condone abuse. I fight this as a juvenile officer on a daily basis. What I saw and what I had experienced was not abuse, and I can only speak from my own experience at Fairhaven.
Once more I’m stepping in as a moderator. Let’s not be needlessly incendiary with our tone. We don’t need to condemn all IFBs or pastors in general nor should we call people antichrist. Share your perspective but don’t attack others who share theirs.
Thank you for your moderation Bob…I’ve been reading this discussion for the past couple of days and it seems like there is a group who is being fair, just wanting to stop Fairhaven from some of their questionable philosophies. However there is a second group that is using this to spew hate for all Independent Baptists, and especially pastors. There are a LOT of GREAT pastors in this country who are Independent Baptist and are NOT abusive, and preach the Word of God, and are examples to the flock without micromanaging people’s lives, that have nothing in common with Fairhaven. No matter what happens in Indiana, I do certainly hope it does not open the door to hurt other good churches who are doing nothing wrong and would never think of allowing abuse or cultlike mentalities in their churches.
It’s ironic how Allens initial post was almost boilerplate from the email spam Roger and Jeffy had blasted to one of their alumni mailing lists a few days before the CNN airing. Here is a copy below:
Dear XXX (alumni),
We would like to encourage you to inform the public of some issues.
CNN is coming on our campus today to interview Preacher. They have already talked to some questionable “members†that are not favorable toward Fairhaven. We are not worried about our members, but the cause of Christ is greater than CNN. Please pass this on to any other people that are familiar with Fairhaven and would like to show their support.
Here are some links and phone numbers to call:
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/show/?s=ac360&hdln=2 (Anderson Cooper 360 Comments)
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/show/?s=ac360&hdln=1 (Anderson Cooper 360 Questions)
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/show/?s=andersoncooper (Anderson Cooper Feedback)
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?10
Sample subject line: Fairhaven discipline or Bad Discipline
(404) 827-1500
A sample monologue might be:
I am contacting because I saw Roger Voegtlin was quoted in regards to discipline of children. I attended there for XX years or in 19 . I have fond memories about God’s work in my life through their ministry. Please feel free to contact me.
Thank you,
XXX
@Dave: As a member of FBC, I recall very vividly Roger Voegtlin getting up on Christmas Eve 2006 and saying that a boy urinated on a tooth brush and was “punished” for doing so. Seems to me that he probably knew quite well what happened. He also said the youth pastors should not have apologized years prior for what they had done on the Mexico trip. I was on that trip. I was aware of the way teens, both boys and girls, were punished for very minute things. Many of you have only experienced Fairhaven as a college student or as a visiting pastor, so you do not have the perspective of a person who went through the system and now as an adult is piecing together what went on in my childhood. I love God and want to serve him with my life. I would never, never, never, send my children back to Fairhaven nor visit myself. With the track record Fairhaven has for children going “off the deep-end” as of late, I would have to say that maybe their system has some major glitches. Count up the children still at FBC who have graduated in the past 7-10 years and you will see that it is a small number. So thankful to God that his will for my life does not include Fairhaven and that “form” of Christianity.
Bob, thanks for this place to discuss, and your participation.
Mallinak,
I am not a thinly disguised Victor. I am though, just another fly on
the Fairhaven wall from 1976-1987. Hey, if it helps my credibility
any, I was Candy sale partner with Allen Golden also at times! And
Frank Voegtlin! And name another staff kid, or another church family
and a good chance I was candy selling partners with them also! Wheee!
Yeah, I am insider!
>When I was first told about the Mexico trip, nothing was
>concealed. It was not long after the trip – within the following
>year. I was told about the military-style workout, that the worst
>offenders among the teens were set in the middle and fed snacks and
>given drinks while the other boys worked out. I was told that the boys
>were then left alone, and what happened when they were left
>alone. There was no attempt to conceal anything, nor would there have
>been any reason to conceal anything. We were not conspiring to hide
>something. Two of the leaders on that trip (Pastor Damron and Pastor
>Voegtlin) are two of my very closest friends in the world. I heard of
>the trip from them, and when they told me, they themselves said that
>they were wrong.
In your previous post you talk about ‘conflicting’ stories, how that
many that were there tell a different story than many of the other
witnesses. Fascinating, since what you described above as being the
truth told to you by Jeffy and Damron is the core of every ones story,
and there really is no conflict of what actually happened unless you
want to get down to little nitpicks like if Darrell actually peed on
the toothbrush on purpose or accident. Oh, and if Darell had to drink
till he threw up etc.
So for you, the drinking till vomit, is the crux of the LIES. Rather
than you coming out and saying. “It does not matter if he was forced
to drink till he vomited, they had the living daylights beat out of
them!”
Also Alan: You say you think it’s all stuff blown out of proportion? I
guess you are saying that Jeffy and Damron and Mallinak are blowing it
out of proportion also, or just telling the truth?
Back to you Mallinak:
>On that basis, what reason would I have to go on the Internet and
>condemn them for it?
On the basis of them “Pastor Damron and Pastor Voegtlin are two of my
very closest friends in the world.”? You would have no reason at
all. Especially if you are more concerned with protecting your friends
and your friends organizations “in the name of Christ” rather than
defending the weak, young and abused. Seeking out justice and writing
those that were wronged. That is Bible. Covering your friends butts is
not Bible.
Just because Jeffy told you he was wrong does not make for
justice. Jeffy did not commit a sin against God like ‘taking his name
in vain’. He committed a sin and crime against young ones. Confessing
to God and You does not make for a matter resolved. Nor does
apologizing to the kids he had do the beatings. The victims themselves
at the very least deserve restitution. Jeffy and Damron should have
gone to Prison. The fact that you knew about this abuse and did not
report it also from what I understand is a Felony in most states and
you should go to Prison for that also.
And here you are still trying to cover your “best buddies in the whole
wide world”‘s butts.
Mallinak: You also keep saying that the physical abuse was a church
matter, and that it was resolved.
I would like to challenge you to put that in a more direct statement
of how you feel incidents, like this, with severe physical abuse need
to be handled. Please do it for the record, with more clarity than you
already have in this thread. Watching you incriminate yourself in a
public forum is priceless.
Something like this:
If a child is beaten bloody by a Pastor in a Church here are the
things that should be done:
– The police should not be involved. As this is a spiritual matter.
– The Pastor only needs to apologize to God, to other Pastors, and to
the people whom he told to do the beating.
– The deacons of the church that were not the ones involved with the
incident should not be notified. People like Dr. McNeily, hopefully
he won’t find out for 10 years.
– When the “church” takes care of the matter, the actual church should
not take care of the matter, but instead a secretive select group of
people, chosen of course by the Perps FATHER.
– If the Chief Pastor is asked about the incident and there is
something brought up that he would like to deny, have him deny that
part. But make sure he says nothing else. We want it to appear like
everyone else is lying and ‘blowing things out of proportion”
because they received 3 swats one time in front of the class.
– For sure if they ask about the Mexican Incident for sure, don’t say
“THATS A LIE, we never made him drink until he puked, We only beat
the living daylights out of him and others.” Avoid it, make them all
look like liars.
> I believe that the right thing to do after a thorough investigation
> would be to rebuke, require a public apology and reconciliation, and
> to put some oversight in place in order to ensure this same thing
> never happens again.
You are publicly telling pastors to overlook assault and
battery. Would you also recommend this with rape? To Leave the cops
out of it? What if it was your wife that got the daylights beat out of
her by some thug on the street? Please tell us exactly what crimes
should be covered up from the state and handled internally? Murder?
Just asking for the list…
> Naturally, if those youth leaders grew belligerent about the issue,
> or if they lied to cover up what they did, then we would need to
> remove them from their position.
Roger is belligerent about the issue and is lying to cover it up. No?
Ok, why don’t you talk to him and ask him all these direct
questions. People keep slamming some of the sources of these stories,
while I see so much evidence from people like you and McNeily, even
the stories you are telling of stuff Jeff told you. YOU people are
full of nonsensical logical explanations.
You call others liars, while your own stories contradict each
other. It is not surprising since the base issue is not conflicting
stories, but conflicting morals on your part and your buddies.
> As I recall (and I am digging into 15-year old memories of a
> conversation), they were surprised that not more parents were angry
> about it.
C U L T
> Now, I understand that by giving this account, I have opened myself
> to some angry answers from people like Jake Ace (David Gonzales, with
> a not-so-thinly veiled, FFF-style way of saying “Jack Assâ€). Have at
> it if that is what floats your boat. The longer Bob allows this to
> continue, the more this site turns into the FFF anyway.
Hey Mallinak, you said “Jack Ass” not me. You should also know that
“Jack Ass” as you said was something Pastors on the staff would say at
times, so you telling me to do as they say not as they do?
> Some of those who were interviewed have discussed the Mexico trip
> personally with Pastor Damron or Pastor Jeff Voegtlin, and have told
> them that all was forgiven. And in at least one case, that
> conversation took place in the recent past.
Really? Name them. Come on out and put your cards on the table. All
sides want to keep some of their secrets here while trying to get
people to believe them.
Victor: You say you have much worse horrible stories? Why are you
covering them up? Put your cards on the table also.
Allen: You were always good to me, and of a gentle nature, unlike
Straub and others who would hit us on the top of our heads with the
gem side of their FH class rings giving us 2 minute migraines.
You speak of ‘I never experienced this’. Fine just because you never
saw certain things does not mean it did not happen to other people. I
was never abused. I have a lot of bad memories, but mostly a lot of
fantastic memories from FH also. Just cause I can say that does not
mean others are lying.
Its funny how one poster says “I don’t think they are abusers at FH”,
then once again, another former insider member like you come in here
and say: “I never saw welts on Franks butt”, followed by, “I saw them
on many other kids butts”.
WOW BINGO. With friends of FH like you Allen, who needs enemies, you
and Mallinak, keep talking guys, you are showing how there is truth to
a lot of this.
Its interesting how you Allen, also talk about people being bitter
about getting 3 swats, yet then talk about others with welts on their
butts, legs. Cognitive Dissonance man… You were witness to outright
evidence of abuse.
I know what your defense is. Its the same maneuver that Roger did on
CNN. When talking about his “philosophy of 3 swats”…
“When they address A, respond with facts of B” repeat B with A.
Example: FH School does 3 swats. Roger in his own home had no such 3
swat philosophy, neither did most parents. From babies, to young
adults.
FH or Roger never told people to do many of the things that they did
to their children. He never did it himself either.
WHAT HE DID DO, IS EXACTLY WHAT JEFFY AND DAMRON DID…
They set the stage, let the parents know what the consequences are if
they do not get their children disciplined and in-line… And he would
say what Jeff said to the kids in Mexico:
“What are you going to do about it?” Then the pastor would leave the
pulpit, or the office, or the meeting.
THAT was the environment. And Allen I was there and you were there, I
would find it hard to believe that you don’t remember your fellow
students many times coming into school WITH BLACK EYES. Usually after
losing a wrestling match.
I know many on staff and “TOP” families that would get the living
daylights spanked out of them for losing at sports alone.
You know it Allen.
The “Church” did not do this. Correct. They only gave 3 swats for 5/10
demerits. Roger did not do this.
Staff knew what they were doing to their children and the other
children. TOP families knew of what was being done to their own and
staff children. Everyone looked the other way and let the other
parents do as they saw fit to ‘save their children’s souls’ or ‘win the
next match’.
EVERYTHING I am saying here can be corroborated by hundreds of people,
and I know that you Allen will also corroborate this, although I doubt
you will do it. I also don’t think you will call me a liar, cause I do
think you are a good man who would not go that far.
> When a student got into high school they did not get swats, they
> worked an hour detention for every five demerits they received.
Untrue. When a student got into high school and they were Female or if
they were Male who was not involved with the official sports team
system (i.e. You were in F-Troop), they would get detention.
If you were in the sports program, you were not required to do an hour
of slave labor (toilet cleaning etc) per 5 demerits, you still got
your butt spanked in the gym or Dan Delongs office.
> My Senior year, I can’t recall working detention
Cause you were star athlete in the sports program. You did not work
detention since 8th grade…
Also the hour of slave labor was not based on 5 demerits. It was a
system based on exponential numbers.
Here is a chart as an example, D is Demerits, H is additional hours of
slave labor required, A is cumulative:
D H A
5 1 1
5 2 3
5 4 7
5 8 15
5 16 31
5 32 63
So 30 demerits would lead to 63 hours of scrubbing toilets etc, for
the Women Folk and the sissies in F-Troop.
For the Jocks, they would just get 3 swats per 5 demerits, no
calculator needed.
> Bitterness begins to grow in ones heart; and three swats with a
> paddle, in ones mind, turns into a life of beatings and abuse.
You say this then you admit to seeing others with welts on their
butts/legs.
You really are a shill for FH, Allen. I am not even arguing Bible with
you, or he said she said. I am using your own words.
How about this, you say:
> Beating a child black and blue is not Christian, it is not Godly, and
> it not the way Fairhaven teaches discipline to be administered.
Take a look here Allen:
http://mildlyinsightful.com/2011/08/20/spiritual-spanking-by-roger-voegtlin/
Roger says:
“Now, what is a rod? I don’t think it’s a ball bat, I don’t think it’s
a club… but it’s obviously some kind of a stick or a switch. It’s
designed to give a sharp, unpleasant pain. If that isn’t’t the result of
your spanking, then you’re failing…now in American history, it was a
peach switch when the kids were real young, it was a hickory stick…in
my home as a boy it was the strap. A leather thing about the diameter
of my little finger…it was a foot to eighteen inches. The result was,
I would DANCE. When he came across with that strap it would come
inside my thighs, and ohhhh did it BURN…I mean it would make
WELTS. Now, that’s Bible.”
So tell me, was Roger referring to his CNN TV Appearance Philosophy on
spanking? The “3 Swats with a Paddle” that “Sting but don’t Hurt”.
And tell me Allen do you think that welts don’t leave black and blue?
You say you stand by FH and Roger and his views on spanking etc. Do you stand by this? Is this how you discipline your children?
> Beating a child black and blue is not Christian, it is not Godly, and
> it not the way Fairhaven teaches discipline to be administered.
It appears you don’t, then you go on to contradict FH’s own
teaching. And this gem is on the net easy to find. The archives have many more things like this, not just from Roger, but from many other staff/Pastors.
Again, just cognitive dissonance here…. Blows my mind.
Allen you say:
“I don’t believe a few people with bitter hearts should ruin a work
that has done so much to help thousands through the years.”
I think the proper interpretation to in your own words would be:
“I don’t believe a few people with bitter hearts and welts on their
butts that I saw myself, nor evidence coming to light of what Jeff has
admitted he did and was wrong in having a gang of teens beat the
living daylights out of a few other children, should ruin a work that
has done so much to help thousands through the years.”
Both you and Mallinak are part of the cover up, part of the sham shill
PR push to paint Roger and Jeffy and Damron as Christ protected
untouchable, non-disposable entities.
How about they step down, skip out of town, get real jobs like you,
and FH can continue to ‘help thousands’ for another few decades. No?
Why are certain actors untouchable, to be protected at any cost.
How about you take the McNeily route? And the route of many other old
timers, and help stop the damage to the cause of Christ you think you
are trying to avoid.
You Allen and the other Supporters of Roger, Jeffy and the rest are
the biggest part of the problem, not those seeking justice and
shedding a light on what kind of environment FH is and has been for
decades.
> Everything that I have heard so far is hear say.
Hear say is not the same as Gossip. Hear say is a term used in a court
of law meaning that one person heard it from another rather than
experiencing it first hand.
> And every one that I have heard it from has had a falling out from Fairhaven.
Why don’t you call Darrel? Sam Bain? Caleb Stockman? If you have not
heard things first hand, then go talk to them and hear it first
hand. Its only hearsay when you repeat it back to us. Go to the
sources.
I have a better idea. Why not read Malinaks post in here. He has not
yet had a falling out yet yeah? He just posted that the Mexico Trip
did happen and kids were beat to a pulp.
Do you stand by what Jeff did? Is Mallinak spreading here say?
Are you spreading hearsay when you talked of actually seeing welts on
other kids?
Your statements alone in this thread perjure yourself.
That goes for you also Mallinak.
I am glad people don’t think any one that grew up from Fairhaven can think for themselves. I would like to know how my comments in any form was dialogued from the e-mail that was posted. I wanted to give my perspective, and because I did, I am now attacked by Jake Ace and Victor. It could be because Jack Ace is Victors nephew and they both have an underlying hatred toward Fairhaven and any one associated. I believe this is very immature and child like!
Allen,
Dude, I am not Victor or Victors nephew. I did not attack you, I just pointed out the similarity, very ironic. I am an old friend of yours and candy selling partner a few times also.
> how my comments in any form was dialogued from the e-mail
Never said it was dialogued. I said it was ironic.
“I went to FH” “Fond memories”. etc. If you don’t think its funny, I am sure others did.
And don’t go all ‘Jake Ace’ is attacking me, on my other latest post that is in moderation now. I spit out nothing but a sound argument and points. There is no ‘personal attacks’ in it at all.
I wish people would use their own names. If you stand behind what you say, you shouldn’t be ashamed of the truth. I will admit that I did not go on the Mexico trip, I was not around at that time. Therefore I can not and did not speak of those circumstances. I gave my personal accounts of what I had seen. The bruised backs of kids I seen was not staff kids. I am not saying that some of these things did not happen. I am just saying I did not see them. If I am going to be judged for things I did not see, then there are about a million others posting out there that will be judged as well. I can only speak of what I had seen, and if you think other wise so be it. I do not half to convince you of any thing, I know what I have seen and if you want to speak for me that is between you and God.
Allen,
What a pathetic response to my issues I directed at you and the contradictions I examined in your statements.
> I wish people would use their own names. If you stand behind what you
> say, you shouldn’t be ashamed of the truth.
Why should I use my real name when everything I speak is truth and is
corroborated. I just argue your statements against yourself, in the
logic of the statements and the inconsistency of the morals. I also
speak truth of everything else in my post in regards to facts. My
identity has nothing to do with anything I am talking about.
How about this. My real name is “Anonymous”.
> I will admit that I did not go on the Mexico trip, I was not around at
> that time. Therefore I can not and did not speak of those
> circumstances.
You spoke of those circumstances by default with this statement:
“I will stand with Dr. Voegtlin and Fairhaven Baptist Church.”
You will stand with them in light of Mallinak exposing the confession
of Jeff and the coverup that even McNeily did not find out about for
10 years.
You also spoke of those circumstances by ignoring the facts presented
by Mallinak that Jeff told him and everyone else knows about, and
making these statements:
> I would stand behind them regardless, because they were good to me
> and for me. This has ballooned because there are several adults who
> could not get over the fact that they were told what to do as kids,
> now they are older they have a vendetta against some one who has
> been successful.
That statement in itself says that the beaten kids are liars balooning
things out of proportion just cause they were told what to do.
You would stand behind them regardless? Wow. Wimpy.
> I gave my personal accounts of what I had seen. The bruised backs of
> kids I seen was not staff kids. I am not saying that some of these
> things did not happen. I am just saying I did not see them.
What a crock. You admit to seeing it, but say that it was not
staff. Then you say that you did not see them.
The only way I can make sense out of that is if you are saying, yes
many parents abused their children and I saw it with my own eyes, but
I never saw it on one of the staff kids.
SO WHAT. Who cares what you did not see. Who cares if it was not
staff. What you saw was the abused bodies of upstanding known families
in the church, staff or not. These were not just some black kids from
Black Oak.
You talk about hear say then tell us about their abused bodies that
you saw first hand.
That is key. That is what I addressed to you.
> If I am going to be judged for things I did not see, then there are
> about a million others posting out there that will be judged as
> well. I can only speak of what I had seen, and if you think other wise
> so be it. I do not half to convince you of any thing, I know what I
> have seen and if you want to speak for me that is between you and God.
What a lousy weak Straw Man argument. Trying to make out as if I
judged you in my previous post on what you did not see.
Why don’t you do this, go back and read my responses to you in the
previous post, and come up with some responses that actually address
them.
Okay, I have been going to Fairhaven Church since i was in 3rd grade. And none of this crap is true. Soo, evry stopp CNN is gay!
OK, So they interview seven of the Fairhaven members. Why don’t they interview the numerous others who have went throught the doors at Fairhaven?? These seven individuals are in love with their sin and would rather dabble in their sin then be right with God and live a holy life. I have attend Fairhaven Baptist College for two yrs. Yes, I didn’t agree with them on everything but, I did not let that hinder the work of God. I think that CNN should interview more then just the rebels that really didn’t want to be there in the first place!
I think this is a very sad post and that you all need a good therapist . I grew up in the Baptist School and Church in Lowell. While I have bad memories of my childhood and what my mother was taught on disciplining children, I have chosen to move on and now know that God is love, not constant ridicule and judgement like the Baptists believe. I personally feel sorry for the kids I see from the Baptist churches as I understand the difficult lives they have to live that they did not choose. Happily, I can say that God has a plan for them and I pray for them that they will move outside the “baby Christian” Baptist faith and can grow up to serve God, not a preacher, with all their hearts.
I also attended Lowell Baptist, and they rarely spanked kids. When they did, it was not in front of the entire class. It was in the principal’s office, with another teacher to witness. And it was 3 swats. Period. Not 3, unless you danced, then 3 more, etc, etc. I personally was never spanked, and I attended for about 10 years. There was no abuse of any kind, and they didn’t do things to humiliate the kids, as FH students allege happened in their school. So they made us wear culottes, and checked our skirt length, or occasionally did locker checks….no big deal. I’m happy for my Christian education. I do think they focused too much on certain rules. Women wearing slacks hardly makes you a bad Christian. That’s irrelevant in my opinion.
As to FH, I have a relative that attends, and I know they do some of these things. My family member has never seen the type of abuse that has been talked about on this site, but they do weigh-ins (and you will fail the class if you don’t make weigh-ins), spank in front of the class, and will call you out in front of others. If you dare to fall asleep during church, you will be called out by name, and embarrassed. If your cell phone accidentally goes off, you’d better prepare yourself for ridicule. I don’t think that’s appropriate at all.
That said, not all IFB churches are like Fairhaven. I attend one in Central IN and none of this behavior has ever taken place. While I think Fairhaven has some good people and they do some good things, I don’t agree with many of their methods. I, for one, would never send my children there. However, I can’t condemn the entire church for the actions of a few.
Dave Malinak What members of your family were on that trip? I was there and I don’t believe any of your family were still in the church in 1997…but then again it was a long time ago and my memory is a bit fuzzy…this however is what I do remember:
This was the first major trip the youth group had taken after Voegtlin and Damron took over the youth group. Whitecar was along for the ride as well…And everyone of these guys had a chip on their shoulder and something to prove. My father was along on this trip as a bus driver along with some other old timers…R.L. Grant and Dean Leslie. These guys looked up to my dad as a sort of source of wisdom I guess… As is in any youth group the younger kids are immature…thats why they are in 7th grade. A few of the kids made some stupid mistakes, some hardly worth mentioning, yet Damron felt like he needed to come down hard with an iron fist. Darcel McCoy did something silly and stupid in the shower but was accused of deliberately trying to urinate on someones tooth brush…(He didn’t) in case you were wondering… Caleb Stockman and Tom Almanza were seen on the opposite side of the road without permission and had stopped to buy a coke or something silly…nothing really offensive or a deep sin. The next day we were not allowed to eat lunch or have anything to drink…mind you this is Mexico in summertime 100+ degree temperature in the shade…(and at this point none of us knew why we were being punished) We spent the day knocking on doors and inviting people out to see a film at a mission church that we were there to help…It was nothing more than brick walls with a tin roof, as it got later people began to show up at the church and the girls were allowed to sit down with them…The guys were sent upstairs under the tin roof in a room with no windows or ventilation, we sat up there and waited and waited for about 2-3 hours (still no idea, and pretty hungry and thirsty and PO’d by this time…) After the service finished we got on the bus to head back to the compound that we were staying at and were told no one was allowed to talk. We wondered if they were finally going to feed us or at least tell us what was going on… But when we got back to the gym where we slept each night we were told to get changed and go to bed…once again, no talking. By this time I knew something was up…and didn’t think for a minute that we were going to be getting a good nights sleep… Lights had been out for about 30 minutes when the gym doors came crashing open and garbage cans went flying like an opening scene from Full Metal Jacket… And Carl Bain in all his glory yelled for us to square the deck away…now most of these kids weren’t raised in military families and had no clue they just stood there…Finally he got it across that he wanted them to clear out an area in the middle of the floor and form a circle. They then began to berate everyone in the gym, saying “You guys don’t take this serious, ‘You wanna play games?’ fine we are going to play some games!” They called Darcel, Caleb, and Tommy into the center of the circle and sat them down in chairs next to a fan and fed them steak fajitas and sandwiches, made sure they were nice and comfortable. Then began to make us do PT jumping jacks, sit-ups pushups, bends and thrusts(ask someone who has been in the military, what bends and thrusts are) then leg lifts while Steve Damron ran around the room stepping on each persons stomach saying that if they were doing it right they wouldn’t be able to feel him…All the while we were told that we were being punished because of the 3 in the middle…this went on for about an hour and a half with no stop. Finally we are told to stand up…and they pulled Darcel into the middle and told us what he had done…or what they thought he had done…And they began to force him to drink liquid…It started out with bottles of arizona tea and then 2 liters of coke and gallons of water…I literally watched his stomach swell up from the liquid he was trying to ingest…and as if this wasn’t enough…Jeff Voegtlin…and I’m quoting him and dare him to dispute it…said “Only a “NIGGER†would do something like what you did butch…” ( Darcel is an African American by the way) then they forced him to drink more water until he literally exploded vomited and urinated all over himself and what not every where… Then they made him clean it up and we went back to doing more PT while they sat him back down with his compadres…they had shut the air off in the gym as well, to make it more comfortable for us…”How thoughtful” after about another 45 min to an hour of this, they once again clarified they were punishing us as a whole due to the sins of those three guys…and that they were going to go outside for a break and kept saying they trusted that we would take care of it…As soon as they closed the doors behind them the entire 60-70 guys jumped the three in the middle…Caleb was lucky he was a bit stocky and no one wanted to mess with him…Darcel and Tommy got the brunt of it…I watched tommy’s brother Andy beat the crap out of him…hitting him with his class ring and bouncing his head off of the cement, all the while yelling that tommy had sent some poor mexicans to hell because of his playing around and not being serious… Tommy the next day could not open his eyes they were swollen shut and Im pretty sure he had one if not several concussions…both he and Darcel would have been admitted to any emergency room here in the states , but those Jerks didn’t even have the thought to check them out….(Had they died or had been paralyzed this story would have taken a much different turn) We were then told to go to sleep and not talk about any of this to the girls the next day…
Darcel’s Story:
The doors in the shower was broken, and I couldn’t get out. I was 13yrs old and had to pee! So I went in the shower! Since I told them “I couldn’t hold it” I was forced to drink gallons of water and coke and tea until I had to pee, then made to urinate on myself. Again, this is after puking several times all over myself because of all the liquids being forced down. (tea, coke, dirty water)
Michael’s Story:
I would like to add some details if I may. Sam, very well said and accurate. I remember this day like it was yesterday. Now mind the fact some of things I will say came to my knowledge years after the incident. Earlier in the day when most people were getting ready to go out canvassing, word started to ne spread around that staff was upset and people were going to be in trouble. So some people do what survival instincts prompted them to do and that was to save their own skin and tell on others. So Don Whitecar stood up and said if anyone has any information about people breaking the rules they need to come forward dorm everyone in the canvassing group would be punished. So we had people fabricating stories to save their own skin. They compiled a list of about 25 people that had “done wrong.” Since they were experts at making mountains out of mole hills, they said it was a widespread problem and needed to be dealt with. This is when Sam’s story comes into play. We also had gone to Mexico with a missions group that was not affiliated with our group and took their buses and people into chihuahua. So they put us down to bed until thwarting bus kids that came with us and the bearing precious seeds people were asleep out on the bus. While the people in the middle were eating they got the list of people out and one by one called them to the middle of the circle where Jeff Voegtlin was standing with a paddle. They were saying he was the executioner and would be administering swats. after you had been called out, they read the charges against you and decided on the how many swats you were to receive. They even had an algorithm to compute swats for some. For example they would say take the number of charges, multiply it times 3 and divide by 2. If it was an odd number that you divided by then they would ask what butt cheek you wanted half the swat on. Some were told to go butt naked for their swats. After this was done, they focused on darcel and made the kid, whose tooth brush was allegedly peed on, get his toothbrush for darcel to brush his teeth with. At the same time they told all the seniors to get their nice clothes and put them at the feet of Darcel so that he would wet himself and the seniors clothes so they would be upset. Now mind touch, Fairhaven staff was very good at prompting others to do their physical abuse for them. When darcel drank so much that he peed himself and the seniors clothes, they got in his face calling him names and shouting at him. They then walked out telling everyone they hoped the problem would be solved when they got back. It was not Andy who beat up tom, but I will not say who it was. People need to understand we had so much animosity, hatred and emotions stuck inside of us for so long that when the opportunity for an outlet came it came out with a vengeance. We would take our frustrations of staff out on others. After the beating, they made darcel clean the bathrooms with the toothbrush and was not allowed to pee or sleep that night.
Now Pastor Malinak, you claim you don’t believe Dr Voegtlin or Jeff or Steve lied about any of this…I will take a public lie detector test with the three of them on anything that I printed here…I spoke with my father this past Christmas and was told as Pastor Brandenburg has so eloquently pointed out that we needed to be hardened and instilled with Christian Character ( a parents responsibility if anyones, in my humble opinion…) But I personally was 12 or 13 on this trip and there were those younger than me…Not NAVY SEALS or Green Berets by any stretch. And it should be pointed out. The US Military, Special Forces included, volunteer, knowing full well what they are subjecting themselves to.
I ask you this…If everything was done in a Godly way, why were the 3 guys stuck in the middle later approached by staff and asked to sign papers stating that nothing illegal or immoral was done to them? 2 signed…Darcel did not. Why was Caleb Stockman approached by staff and asked to tear up the pictures of Tommy Almanza, bruised and bloody. Why were we told that under harsh penalty, we were not to talk to anyone about what had happened?
You pastor’s can circle your wagons and support blindly what you have been told…but I repeat your words Pastor Malinak. There are two sides to every story. Did you ever try to contact Darcel and ask for what happened to him? Im sure the Jeff Voegtlin proclaimed “Nigger” would be happy to tell his story… I have been branded bitter…and angry and denounced as one who only wants to hurt the work of God and the cause of Christ… Read Jeremiah chapter 23… the sheep have been scattered…many beyond the reach of a good church…I count myself lucky to have found a church that has reached out to me…and that understands that abuse whether in the church house or the home is wrong…and shouldnt always been dealt with internally to save face…You of all people should know about that being from Terre Haute…
Maybe I do have an ax to grind, but i dont believe its a wrong one…Dr Voegtlin has been approached and brushed off more than one person who has brought “The Mexico Trip” and other abuses “including sexual abuse” and for him to Say he had never heard about the Mexico Trip and Darcel being brutalized…I say boldly “He is a Liar” and I would argue hurting the cause of Christ.
Sam you said: “Read Jeremiah chapter 23… the sheep have been scattered…many beyond the reach of a good church…I count myself lucky to have found a church that has reached out to me”
That is so very true, and one of the big reason’s I’m airing this out on my blog. I have encountered numerous people over my years of blogging who’ve been hurt by the excesses of fundamentalism, such as that which goes on at Fairhaven. Many have walked away from the faith, or nearly did.
From a college student’s perspective, when college students couldn’t toe the line and keep in step with the program, they were just abandoned and left to die, as it were. They were ridiculed on the way out, by many of the “in” students, and dismissed out of hand by many of the staff. At least that is the feel one had about them. Many of those students, though, were fairly new to the faith, wanting to follow God, excited about the prospects of learning the Bible more, and some of them I have no doubt, have walked away from the faith altogether because of their time at Fairhaven. And the number of those who have left who grew up at Fairhaven is quite large as well.
Thanks for sharing your side of the story here. I know it hasn’t been easy for you to speak up about this. You risk alienating whatever ties were left with your adopted parents. You’ll be a big target too, for sure. I hope people can see that this isn’t a simple thing to do.
Blessings in Christ,
Bob Hayton
I was adopted but at birth Bob…Carl and Linda were the only parents i have ever known…I love them as such…I really don’t think of myself as adopted…Though i wasn’t told till about the age of 13. I dont hate Fairhaven, Dr VOegtlin or anyone there…I love them as people but hate the division, cover ups, and denial and downright scoffing of victims… Dr Voegtlin claims he would have drug the rapist to the police, yet he knows a certain current member who used to be a teacher molested two boys…This member’s punishment? One year out of choir…repentant or not that teacher should be in jail…I wont name any names but those two boys went on to molest other students, who in turn molested other students and so on. I have left out names because this “member” now has children and a wife(she knows what he did) and you would know who I am talking about if I named him. Dave ask your dear friend Jeff about the letter he wrote to his adopted sister Cathy…Everything I have said can and will be proven…my motives? Justice…hope for restoration of the offended and repentance of the offenders…will it happen? probably not, but we can pray…we can hope…
Well said, Sam.
I was called by CNN about what I knew about the Mexico trip. I struggled with whether i wanted to do it and finally decided to do so and I’ll explain why…First of all EVERYTHING I said was absolutely true, and there was more to it that I even held back on saying. Roger V. did lie…plain and simple. I’m not surprised because I’ve been lied to and lied about by him before.
I was never apologized to, by the way. The only people who recieved this bogus apology was only people who were still there and none of them really experienced the real crap. A few years ago, around the time that Dr. Mcneilly was let go, there was a gag order put on the whole Mexico situation. Anyone found talking about it was in deep trouble. At the time, I was down in Arkansas in Bible College. Somehow, it got back to FH that i was going around “gossiping” about Mexico. I went back for a visit at Preaching Conference to finish paying my bill so I could get my transcripts and was cornered and kicked off the property for “gossiping” about the church. I imediately contacted Roger V and Damron to set up a meeting to talk. In my meeting with Damron, he admitted wrong (no apology) and wanted me to out it in writing that everything was ok. I didn’t do it because I’m not ok with what happened, but I had chosen to forget it and leave it behind. I can honestly say that i hold no bitterness even though I experienced some really crappy things at FH.
So why open my mouth now? I know too many young people who have thrown their lives away after their experiences at places like FH. So many young “troubled” young people who don’t make it at a place like FH think that God hates them and turn to drugs, alcohol, etc. My speaking up had nothing to do with Roger V. or FH. I really couldn’t care less whether they prosper or burn to the ground tomorrow. I want wounded people out there who have been wounded by FH type churches to see me and realize that just because you “didnt make it” by IFB standards, you can still serve God. Fairhaven and IFB is not necessarily synonymous with the work of God or the “Cause of Christ” so i don’t really care if either one looks bad on Natl tv. Movements like IFB come and go, but the Cause of Christ will endure. And don’t gimme the “Your dad would roll over in his grave” bullcrap, because I don’t wanna hear it. My dad was a great man, and I love him, but he let Roger control him and influence him to do things that I’m sure he regretted as soon as he entered Heaven and saw things clearly.
Once again…just to clarify…what i said about Mexico is 100% true and i challenge anyone who was there to call me a liar
I don’t know the college beyond what is written here. I am tempted to observe that the Biblical Presbyterian model of discipline would have limited the cult-like mentality that surrounds many of these autonomous LC models! Dr Voegtlin, by his own words, does seem to lack a bit of sanctified common sense.
Having read the exchanges here, there is clearly a major imbalance of facts. Fairhaven has been going for at least 4 decades. With such a high turnover of students and members in that extended period there is inevitably a large group of rebellious and discontented former students. BJU has the same problem.
What this website and CNN failed to do is analyse the beliefs of the group who left. Have they rejected the fundamental beliefs of Fairhaven? Do they have an agenda to discredit FBC? What percentage of former alumuni of the FBC have had the opposite experience. It is incredulous that CNN could not have found an alumuni who is now serving the Lord yet had diametrically opposite experiences in their time there. After all, former graduates have sent their children there so there must be a large group who were satisfied with FBC’s performance.
The segment was too short for CNN to truly delve into a full fledged report. The comments here indicate some had good experiences at Fairhaven, but you can’t just compare percentages. When do enough former stories add up to indicate a problem? The testimony here that students were told not to tell about the Mexico trip, the testimony even from pro Fairhaven people of kids with black and blue welts on their bodies from beatings from parents, all this speaks volumes in my mind. There is a way to distance yourself from allegations and admit some wrongdoing, there are things Fairhaven could do but haven’t. Instead, they are buckling down and admitting no wrongdoing, and anyone criticizing them is now the enemy. Just like hyper-fundamentalists do, according to Kevin Bauder. The apple doesn’t drop too far from the tree, and the tactics Jack Hyles used when he was being severely and publicly criticized appear awful similar to those being used by Fairhaven now. It’s a strong-armed, leadership style, that acts above the law, and refuses to be held accountable. Hey the man sets his own salary, and has said so publicly to the college classes he teaches. What kind of accountability does he really have? And how does that square with Scripture?
Darcel, thank you for putting things so eloquently. I too grew up at FBC, went on the Mexico trip, knew and loved your family, went candy-selling with you all, and cried so much when your father died. I left FBC after being there for twenty years. By the Lord’s mercy, my husband and I are still serving God in spite of what form of Christianity we saw at FBC. I know so many of my former classmates who have turned from God and to drugs, alcohol, and rough lifestyles. It saddens me. Thank you for taking up their cause! God Bless.
ok numbskulls…members and college students were treated and exposed differently…there are many layers to the Church…but the primary problem is Dr Voegtlin has no accountability to anyone…He rules the church and anyone who questions him is ousted…
One man’s junk is another man’s treasure…
Sorry my last comment was a mistake LOL
Darcel, thank you for chiming in.
If you could, could you please help clarify something? There is a lot of confusion regarding the CNN clip and some info that Mallinak never found out until later.
Let me explain. Mallinak says that Roger did not say in the CNN video that he had no knowledge of the Mexico Incident. What he said was that he knew nothing about the specific part of the Mexico Incident related to you being forced to drink the water and vomiting etc.
Could you tell us very plainly and clearly if Roger knew about the specific parts you spoke about that they aired on the CNN video, your video testimony? If he did know about it, can you tell us at what point he was aware of it that you know of for sure?
Again, this is not about the gang beating, or the toothbrush etc, this is specifically about what he denied knowing anything about in the CNN video.
This would really help us clear up the confusion on this.
Thanks Darcel
Patrick says:
> OK, So they interview seven of the Fairhaven members. Why don’t they
> interview the numerous others who have went through the doors at
> Fairhaven??
Patrick, you think this is some kind of popularity contest?
> These seven individuals are in love with their sin and
> would rather dabble in their sin then be right with God and live a
> holy life.
You are ignorant and know nothing of what you speak of, if you
followed the threads of many of these people that were interviewed
many of them love the Lord deeply and serve him now. Just not at FH.
> I have attend Fairhaven Baptist College for two yrs. Yes, I
> didn’t agree with them on everything but, I did not let that hinder
> the work of God. I think that CNN should interview more then just the
> rebels that really didn’t want to be there in the first place!
Robotic responses, as Bob mentioned right out of the Hyles playbook…
You and Allen seem to think that testimony and interviews with people
that praise FH and the top dogs amount to some type of balancing
out. As if a crime can be balanced out with a lot of other good that
someone does. Sounds kind of catholic.
PSFerguson:
> What this website and CNN failed to do is analyse the beliefs of the
> group who left. Have they rejected the fundamental beliefs of
> Fairhaven?
This is exactly why crimes need to be investigated and prosecuted
outside the church. This is what we are talking about here, is
crimes. If we were talking about a different crime, no less a felony
than physical beating to a pulp, rape. Should the raped be asked, are
you still a Christian?
What does that have to do with justice for Crimes committed by another?
The victim is not on trial, the Perps are, and the evidence is clear
by their own admission.
> Do they have an agenda to discredit FBC?
Of course they have an agenda to discredit FBC, just like a rape
victim has an agenda to discredit their rapist, especially when they
deny it, or cover it up, and have the support of other IFB churches
and shills like Allen and Mallinak trying to discredit them in return.
Its like the ex-wives of some football star all claiming physical
abuse and beatings to a pulp of their ex-husband. You guys would be
asking… hmm.. Why is it that only his ex-wives are claiming that he
used to beat them. Do they have an agenda to discredit him? Yeah, to
discredit his lies that he never beat them.
> What percentage of
> former alumuni of the FBC have had the opposite experience. It is
> incredulous that CNN could not have found an alumuni who is now
> serving the Lord yet had diametrically opposite experiences in their
> time there.
Yes, what % of the former girlfriends of the rapist have had the
opposite experience with him? Again its a popularity contest?
> After all, former graduates have sent their children there
> so there must be a large group who were satisfied with FBC’s
> performance.
Satisfied with their performance. What does that have to do with
morality? Yeah, go there and you will see many happy customers that
beat their kids, and whom those same kids are beating their kids now,
rinse, repeat. Its on the 3rd/4th generation now.
At the same time, you have people who are kept in the dark, people
that are not part of the inner group etc. Sam put it great, many
layers to FH. Just because “I grew up there and it was like Disney
World Heaven” is no different than some girl claiming she slept with
the accused rapist on and off for several years and never ONCE not a
single time was she raped, and going on how he was a perfect
gentleman. Oh please. Roger and Jeffy in this Mexico Incident are not
on trial for good, that is not the question. They are on trial for
facts of crimes, and as more info comes out, you see that they are
contradicting their own statements and perjuring themselves.
Now people from over the years can finally come forward, along with
their witnesses, and with their evidence.
Social networking has toppled dictators overseas in several countries
over the past year. The same is apparently happening now with Roger,
Jeffy and Friends.
This Mexico Incident has been called Fairhavengate. For good reason,
and it may be the wedge to finally bring justice for 40 years of
crimes committed against the littlest ones whom Jesus warned not to
offend. It may also open the door for reconciliation with many
families within themselves. Many great and wonderful things can come
out of this.
You see, many know of the truth, many cover it up. The majority though
are blindly following Roger and Jeffy. Once their feet of clay have
crumbled and they see that they have been bald faced lied to, a domino
effect can happen.
Think this is a fantasy?
Well it’s not. Cause it already started. Dr McNeily, when he found out
the truth, hidden from him for 10 years, he stood up, said “Hey! I did
not sign up for THIS!”
He left. That was the first Domino.
This truth may set an entire congregation free after they are knocked
conscious for a few moments of lucidity.
No, apparently Voegtlin will just ask whether or not the raped has been tithing, because that’s the sin that’ll get you raped.
Mallinak:
>In fact, a number of those who went on the Mexico trip contacted Truchman >wanting to give their version of what happened there, and they were >ignored.
Can I contact Truchman and have him come meet up with you, so that you will not be ignored at least, and have you explain all the details of what you said happened here:
“When I was first told about the Mexico trip, nothing was concealed. It was not long after the trip – within the following year. I was told about the military-style workout, that the worst offenders among the teens were set in the middle and fed snacks and given drinks while the other boys worked out. I was told that the boys were then left alone, and what happened when they were left alone. There was no attempt to conceal anything, nor would there have been any reason to conceal anything. We were not conspiring to hide something. Two of the leaders on that trip (Pastor Damron and Pastor Voegtlin) are two of my very closest friends in the world. I heard of the trip from them, and when they told me, they themselves said that they were wrong.”
But you did not explain above “What happened when they were left alone”, so could you start with Jeffy and his buddy telling everyone “What are you going to do about it?” then leaving the room, then tell the details of what happened then with the gang beating of the other children?
This would be great Mallinak, then the ‘other side of the Mexican Incidient’ could be heard instead of just the troublemakers like Darcel.
You up for it?
Ok I will be short. For those of you who believe I am lying you are entitled to your own opinion. What I said was true and will continue to stand by what I said with no apologies!!! As for Dave Malinak you were not there being beat or put down your whole life like we were. You only saw what they wanted you to see.
Allen,
This is not an accusation of something you saw, this is a direct question.
Remember, there are hundreds watching this thread, so its better to answer honestly.
1) Were you or any of your siblings ever abused physically with excessive beatings or sexually molested or raped? This is about what you know to be true.
2) Have you or any of your siblings ever relayed stories of being excessively beat or sexually molested or raped? This is about you or your siblings claims, whether you know their claims to be true or not.
No spin answers, I did not ask if it was done by staff.
No accusations here, no attacks, just a simple yes no would suffice.
Yes, this is a dare for you to answer.
I was not; I can not speak for my sisters, but I had not heard of any abuse.
You answered Question #1. Good.
For question #2, Why don’t you go ask your sisters, and get back to us with their exact answers.
Here is a comment from an anonymous person who asked me to post it for them:
____________________________________________
Bob, Kent,
After reading through all the comments on several sites concerning Fairhaven and the abuse that has happened there, there is no doubt that this is creating a stir and I find it comforting to know it finally is.
A little back ground on me… Grew up at Fairhaven and am the complete package (K4-12 and 3yrs College) Well, maybe not the complete package due to the fact that I did not get a degree. I was there on the missions trip and can attest to that as well. Anyhow moved on and have since become a Navy SEAL so I can comment on the “military abuse” side of this argument.
Let me say first and foremost, I am not bitter in any way, and love my parents even though they still go the church there. I am not sure if they speak of the fact that they still talk to a few of their children who have left even though on numerous occasions have been told the reason their kids have not returned is due to the fact they are not shunning them. Not sure if you all remember about 5 yrs ago or so there was a good debate going on between Bob, Kent, Dave, and anonymous on this very topic. Well to let the cat out of the bag, anonymous was me, and wish I could pull up those blogs to see them again.
Anyhow I hold no hatred for Fairhaven, but knowing what I know and living through all of that, I now can see some of the “punishment” was and could still be abuse. I say that to say abuse is wrong any way you look at it. Some is a matter of opinion as well, what exactly is mental, or emotional or really any other type of abuse? I have been through the toughest of military schools and some of it could be looked at as mental or physical abuse, but I chose to continue on. On top of that there is a strict guideline as to how and how much of each can be done. There was none of that on the Mexico trip! None of that really on any trip that I went on as part of the church. I would go as far as to say there really was none of that at home, at least in our house. For certain offenses there was a strict “number” placed on the swats given but sometimes, and I can speak from experience, It was “out of control”. The only place where any “order” was given to punishment was in grade school. Three swats for 10 demerits and it wasn’t like the teacher were out to get you, even though I was not the best of little brats. And I know I was a bad little kid, lied, stole and got my swats just like everyone else. It was High school where things were different though. Mostly had to do with the youth group program and all the things that went on there. There was no guideline for discipline, there was no one to answer to as a leader, and you are wrong to believe the “Hollywood” military discipline. To be frank that is a sorry excuse for abuse. There is no question in my mind and have not found a story about that trip in Mexico to be exaggerated. I was there and would explain it much worse than the story that is posted here on Bob’s blog.
It was not just the Mexico trip, I can recall one of the leadership leading the charge in taping up a teen, he would make fun of him as the other teens hit him and would pour water in his mouth till he was choking. Again I was there, and took part in this hazing, it was wrong, but as a kid growing up, being told not to tell because if you did the same would happen to you. Abuse is wrong, but where to draw the line? What one would call abuse another would call it making you mentally tough, or physically tough. It is not the punishment for a crime that is what is wrong with all of this but rather no guidelines, no structure and with that things will always be taken too far.
I am no great person or even come close to the knowledge that is represented in this blog, but would like to make a point. It is not me against Fairhaven, it is not anyone else vs. Roger Voegtlin, it is the fact that abuse has happened and is wrong. Discipline should have some type of boundaries to restrict the “angry beatings”, “military discipline”, or what ever else it may be called.
Let me end by saying not everything that has happened to me over the years at Fairhaven has been bad. I can honestly say I would have never made it through the training I have been through, if it was not for the toughness I got growing up. I would say some came from sports but a lot came from my Father and his ridiculous work ethic, which I hated at the time, but proved to be one of the many good things I take from my youth.
____________________________________________
Hello there. I would just like to put in my two cents. For those of you who are saying I am lying about what happened to me and telling Roger about it you are entitled to beloved what you want but the fact is I am not lying he is. My dad made me go tell him. I sat in his office for three hours telling him and he called me back a few weeks later to discuss it more. And so when he says he knew nothing he is lying. And as Allison said there were more than just me. That was one of the hardest things to do. To expose something so private and personal. As for Dave Malinak you are not the one who received the abuse and humiliation. They let you see only what they want you to see!!! I stand by my story and always will as well as those of my friends who were bold enough to speak out. I think it is a shame at what goes on there. What we are doing is not done out of spite or vengeance but rather to state the facts and save other innocent children for being abused and loosing their innocence.
You’re doing the right thing, Jeremiah. It’s hard to take on such a large, well established group, but you’re standing up for what’s right, and you’re doing it to protect those who can’t protect themselves. Stay strong.
Jeremiah,
Fascinating… Can you tell us during those 3 hours if the Specific part of the story about Darcel being forced to drink water until he threw up was discussed?
Thanks
Jeremiah,
Oh, also. This part: “My dad made me go tell him.” – How long after the Mexico Incident did this occur?
Thanks
Jeremiah – Please do not listen to anyone who will not believe you. There are plenty of us out here that support you and love you. Focus on that and let others, as close-minded as they are, have their own thoughts. My heart breaks for you and every other person who suffered harm as a result of a misinterpreted god.
What are you afraid of Jake Ace?
I’m sorry if I confused you. My comments was in response to the one made earlier about people not believing my story about confronting Roger about my rape. Sorry for the confusion.
Thank you Julie!!!
Roger has been approached by parents and even pastors of other churches, He has spoken about darcel “gossipping” about what happened at luncheons with other pastors…He is a liar and my challenge for a public polygraph on any of these charges still stands…but public is not what he nor Malinak or Brandenburg want…You feel by somehow condemning the abuse…which Dave I feel strongly you know what happened and that it is abuse…But you guys feel like somehow speaking out would somehow damage your church in the eyes of the world. Contrary I believe if more of FHBC ‘s peers spoke out you might be able to bring about reform and even reach more in your respective communities. Dave I think it is common knowledge that you are on the “short list” to take over when Voegtlin retires. If that is even one percent true, you better do your homework before you start doing damage control for them the next time. You spread lies about what I had said from Andy Almanza to a Pastor in Pennsylvania…you could have called me and gotten my statement instead of taking it second hand from a Fairhaven pawn…One thing that turns alot of these kid’s off is that they hear preaching against gossip but we see our Pastors do it sometimes more blatantly and call it right. Wrong is Wrong Abuse is Abuse…give me your children for a week in Mexico let me take them and do things I have no right to do, and then you can talk to me about making them “hard” soldiers of Jesus Christ…
“I believe if more of FHBC ‘s peers spoke out you might be able to bring about reform and even reach more in your respective communities.”
I have long thought that potentially could happen. Sadly, it appears I was wrong. We can hope that change may happen, though. But it doesn’t look like it at this point.
And this is not hateful rhetoric, But shame on you pastors who call yourself “Independent” yet allow other churches to influence you…or you try to influence other churches…
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D2kXvrpOBk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D2kXvrpOBk
http://www.youtube.com
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipleF2wh8Q0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipleF2wh8Q0
http://www.youtube.com
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ5sULFT4m8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ5sULFT4m8
http://www.youtube.com
Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKxhw_lE7uQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKxhw_lE7uQ
http://www.youtube.com
I still say a public polygraph or at least one done in the prescence of Malinak and Brandenburg would be the answer to this…put darcel in a chair…put me in a chair and then put VOegtlin and his son and son in laws in a chair…I know what the result would be…
And no one has mentioned making a boy wear a dress…this was done at Fairhaven by staff as recently as 5 years ago…and there are dozens of people who remember seeing Frank in the Dress…Little white lie? maybe but it does show a pattern of the lies.
Pastor Brandenburg and Pastor Malinak….sorry if I have used your first names in this post..I believe you have earned the title of Pastor until you prove otherwise…And honor and respect is due. I will however post my phone number here and would be happy to discuss any further details in person. I don’t expect you to call but if you so should choose…I am here.
Sam Bain
Here is my experience with Fairhaven. I have been on campus six times. One of the times was one afternoon to talk to prospective teachers, another one Sunday night, another at a wedding of one of our young people one Saturday afternoon, one graduation, two preaching conferences, and one sports banquet. We had 5 of our young people graduate from there. Not including our own young people, we’ve had six Fairhaven graduates as teachers. One of our young people married one of those graduates after she was teaching here. Three of those graduates married Fairhaven graduates, two of which grew up in the church there. Two Fairhaven teachers left for marriage. Our original relationship with Fairhaven came because they taught doctrinally the closest to what we believed. And things turned out well for our young people there. They came back loving the Lord. It helped them. They still testify that to this day.
We have enjoyed all of our Fairhaven graduates immensely, except for one. And that is Bob, our blog owner here. The others have been great. Our own young people came out of Fairhaven doing very well. We love the three graduates that our young people married. They are all high quality, great people, and things turned out very well with them.
I wrote a blog for several years with Dave Mallinak and Jeff Voegtlin, Jackhammer, on which I dealt with issues as I saw them, many, many of which were actually right down the middle of the plate on issues for Fairhaven. I didn’t hold back from anything that I knew or saw there. We’ve pretty much closed down at Jackhammer, and you are welcome to read what I wrote.
I’m not going to defend anything that is unscriptural, including how people deal with Fairhaven. I don’t think airing dirty laundry with CNN is the way to do this. 1 Corinthians 6 here. If you think that you are trying to help the cause of Christ by going to CNN, you are very sadly mistaken. If you think that pairing up with Jocelyn Zichterman is the road to do that, you are again wrong. Most of the commenters on this blog have not given me confidence that they have scriptural interests.
I am certain, however, that everything will work to the right and the good in the end.
[moderator’s note, this post was edited slighty removing some negative references to me.]
I was too old to go on the trip-missed it by a year. I will say that Dr. Voegtlin announced at the church that some of the kids were really acting up. I can’t remember how he said it, but it sounded really bad. My brother got a spanking for the “toothbrush” incident. So according the the pastors, my brother did it on purpose. It is interesting that all of the other children say it was an accident, shared the story with Steve, who laughed-but things got crazy later. My brother’s story is corroborated (sp) by so many people. He did not lie! There is no way! The girls were not in the room where the abuse occurred, but my sisters saw my brothers swollen face and that of Caleb and Tommy. Plus, when they came home, we had a meeting in my sister’s bedroom and we discussed the trip in length. My heart was broken that the youth leaders would do this-I was heartbroken that Jeff would use the word “nigger” when referring to my brother….For those of you who do not understand, this word is so tragic to people of color.
My brother had tremendous health problems as a child-this could have seriously gone south. According to reports from many in the youth group, Tommy even passed out and had to have his head dipped in cold water.
My parents never knew about the trip- we finally told my mother years later. She says that she knew something was wrong because the kids came back really quiet. They reported the “offense” to my Daddy, but conveniently left out what they did. It is my fault that my parents did not know-I was afraid that it would kill my mother, my father would go to jail over it, and we would leave the church. You see, I believed the lie that there were no other churches out there and that our family would be destroyed if we left. Daddy knows now. His eyes have been opened. He saw how his widow was treated after he went to glory, the harsh lies spread around the country and even to his children about his widow and family… There is so much more, but some things we keep within the family.
Please feel free to ask you friends:
1. Why was the Mexico trip not addressed when the children returned? You see there was no backlash because the parents did not know what happened.
2. Why were people churched for “gossiping” about Mexico?
3. What was the purpose of having those abused sign a waiver of sorts? (I know the answer to this but would love to hear theirs)
4. If talking about the Mexico trip is gossip, then what about that of discussing pastors or church members problems or shortcomings in the back office or to other members. I know that the McCoy’s were gossiped about, and on the other hand have heard them gossip about others in the most ungodly fashion.
5. When the “apology” occurred, why was it not handled as other issues were handled-in front of the church? Many church members had no idea what was going on.
As an educator, if I was involved in such a thing, I would lose my career and end up in jail. As a parent, if this ever happened to my child, the offenders would go to jail. Period. To keep it within the church is preposturous. That is one of the problems in churches such as these-no accountability.
Contrary to popular belief, many of us still love and serve God. We are not “in love with our sin”. Perhaps just a bit confused as to how pastors on this forum can defend these things and hint that the accusers are exaggerating. Also to Dave, I grew up with some of the people in your church-how in the world can they have a different story of what happened in Mexico? I would love to hear their story…
I agree whole heartedly with you. I was on the trip and I remember seeing these boys the day after the incident occured. Their pitiful faces all bruised and swollen.
My brother, Jared’s toothbrush was the one the whole incident started with, and even Jared never was upset with Butchie. He knew it was an accident. The fact they sent the one ‘bus kid’ on the trip outside while this was taking place is proof they knew they were doing something wrong and didnt want witnesses.
I do not understand why it has taken this long to be addressed when this was brought to Roger’s attention within the last few years and how he can bold face lie on national tv that he didnt know anything about this.
I think Roger is at a point where the allegations are out there, the damage is done, it’s out of his control to fix and now he’s trying to do damage control to save face .. why not just let Steve, Dean and Jeff all take responsibility. They were the ones in charge and calling the shots on that trip.
Now my real post…after messing up a few times…..I have lost pretty much any remaining respect for FH in seeing that the home page of their website has the picture of the CNN guy holding the paddle!!!!! Really?! Is that their attitude in all this?
They feel they are being persecuted….well when Jesus or any of His disciples were persecuted, it was because they were preaching the Gospel. Any other time, they tried to “have a good reputation with them who are without”. The one time they got yelled at otherwise was for not giving taxes, so Jesus made sure Peter went ahead and paid the taxes. They didn’t just blatantly try to make people angry….they tried to live peaceably. But then of course preaching the Gospel got them in trouble and that couldn’t be helped…and that is true persecution.
Jesus wouldn’t incite gangs of kids to beat up other kids. Jesus wouldn’t make fun of boys for taking piano lessons. (Gee, the man after God’s own heart would have been in a lot of trouble…) Jesus wouldn’t cover up sin. Jesus wouldn’t flaunt a paddle on the home page of His website. Jesus’s whole goal was to lead people to God. That is the purpose of correct discipline, to lead your children to God. That is the purpose of a church, to encourage Christians so they can go out and lead other people to God.
If FH was being persecuted for spreading the Gospel, I would defend them in a heartbeat. But so far, nothing they are being accused of has anything to do with leading people to God…so I can’t be on their side…because they are leading people away from God, and away from the Truth.
They really should remove the picture from their website. Tacky, tacky, tacky….
Dr. brandenburg (other pastors),
One thing you need to understand is that the boys were treated differently than the girls. I am not saying they didn’t have something happen to them, but I know your fairhaven people in your church and know their brothers are speaking out. I know the men from fairhaven in your church agree with us but choose not to comment. You are a man of high respect to me and my family and so I am gonna ask this, please stay out of a another churches affairs. You preach big local church so this is your chance to not get involved with another local church problem. I know you and others wanna hold the coats of fairhaven while they fight but it makes you involved as well. Please just help your fairhaven people heal in your church and stay out of this. None of you guys knew what was going on. Thank you.
Charmaine,
Both you and your brother, I believe, have been in our church in El Sobrante, CA. Your brother actually came back once to visit some of the younger people in our church. If Fairhaven did not like you or love you or have your best interests in view, why did they, do you think, have both of you out as two of only a select few of those representing the school in other churches? It sounds like the Mexico trip was an aberration, at least for how it is being described as something exceptional. And it does sound like the people involved wish they didn’t do it, and would not want it made public what they did (that’s a little too late now). If in deed, they were charged to wiithhold the knowledge from the parents, that is wrong. However, I didn’t think they sent out folks on tour who they thought were bad examples.
I’ve not talked to any pastors or staff about this incident, only people in our church. Contrary to what some might think, I am very rarely in contact with anyone from Fairhaven, except for parents of the graduates who come and visit. It doesn’t sound like any kind of grudge was being held against your brother by Fairhaven. What more, besides informing your mom and dad, would you have thought was scripturally required to deal with young, youth staff at this time. They definitely blew it, but what would or would have satisfied you? From your Brother’s testimony, it sounds like Steve said he was wrong to your brother. I’m thinking of Matthew 18:21-35 here. I’ve many times had people give me less than the apology I wanted, but I knew I was to forgive. Jesus forgives. What more do you need? And I’m very serious about this.
Mr. Brandenburg, if one of your children was brutally abused by someone you trusted, would you be satisfied with an apology, or would you go to the authorities? If your wife or daughter was assaulted, would you want an apology, or would you go to the authorities?
An apology is pretty easy to give, as I’m sure you know, but true repentance requires a bit more from the offender. I don’t see true repentance here. Do you? When there’s no repentance, it’s risky to just say, “forgive and forget,” leaving the offender to abuse or hurt others again. That’s not to say we shouldn’t forgive, but we also shouldn’t turn a blind eye or be an ostrich. This behavior needs to be aired out, there needs to be accountability, and the hurt are entitled to justice.
Ohio,
What church’s affairs are you talking about? I’m not holding anybody’s coats. I am local only in my ecclesiology, yes, but that doesn’t dismiss our relationship with other churches. I’m also concerned about this issue at large, mainly what the issue itself can be used to do, that is, discredit spanking as an act of obedience to God’s Word and outlaw its usage in the Christian home. That would the agenda of CNN.
I’m pretty well stuck in this now too, because Fairhaven is a church with which we have been in fellowship. Philemon, Paul, and Onesimus weren’t all in the same church, and yet there was reconciliation that was required between them.
Thanks Charmaine. It helps clarify.
Dr. brandenburg (other pastors):
I agree with Ohio, and your actions are on record. Your support of these people is on historical record.
Although where I feel differently, is that the matters of one church are unrelated to the matters of another church unless the membership or pastors of those church mingle and have important testimony as to this Godly seeking out of justice.
If you know of first hand information and you choose to hide it, you are guilty of bearing false witness. No less than if you were before a judge of Gods choosing in the Old Testament hearing a matter, and listening to the witnesses, and you choosing to remain silent while others are bearing false witness. Your silence is false witness, and it is sin.
You say “Let God Be the Judge”, then you silence your voices in front of Him.
If you counsel people in your church to remain silent, and not come out in the name of God to bear witness and testimony of offenses to these little ones, you and your silenced members also would be better with a millstone around your necks…
If you know nothing, then you better watch out, or when these false prophets crash, you will be remembered as not only their supporters and part of the cover up, but also as the biggest hindrance to their dethronement.
Kent,
Thanks for the new info.
> Both you and your brother, I believe, have been in our church in El
> Sobrante, CA. Your brother actually came back once to visit some of
> the younger people in our church. If Fairhaven did not like you or
> love you or have your best interests in view, why did they, do you
> think, have both of you out as two of only a select few of those
> representing the school in other churches?
PR. The trip was PR for the school there is no doubt about that. It
was a publicity stunt. What better way to get publicity for the school
than sending out the children of one of the most loved Christian music
pop stars.
> It sounds like the Mexico trip was an aberration, at least for how
> it is being described as something exceptional.
A Navy SEAL posted another incidence of waterboarding torture to
another student in the same thread. Would you call that a
double-aberration?
> And it does sound like the people involved wish they didn’t’t do it,
> and would not want it made public what they did (that’s a little too
> late now).
Of course they would not want it made public, that would be bad PR,
and they would wind up in prison, let alone losing a lot of tithe and
student payments, along with some possible lawsuits.
> If in deed, they were charged to wiithhold the knowledge from the
> parents, that is wrong.
Let me waterboard your child Kent, then beat your wife to a pulp until
she passes out and has her face swollen, threaten them to not tell
you, tell them to tell you ‘that they fell down the stairs’. Then not
tell you about it, and see you tell me that not telling you was ‘wrong’.
> However, I didn’t’t think they sent out folks on tour who they thought
> were bad examples.
I think you are correct Kent. This fact exposes the lie that Roger
told on international tv saying that “Darrel was a problem child”.
Darrel became a bad example the day he told them he would not sign
their legal documents absolving them of their crimes.
> I’ve not talked to any pastors or staff about this incident, only
> people in our church. Contrary to what some might think, I am very
> rarely in contact with anyone from Fairhaven, except for parents of
> the graduates who come and visit. It doesn’t sound like any kind of
> grudge was being held against your brother by Fairhaven.
There is quite obviously a grudge against them now, would you not say
after Darell spoke the truth corroborated by a dozen other witnesses
including several in this thread? Why would that be?
> What more, besides informing your mom and dad, would you have
> thought was scripturally required to deal with young, youth staff at
> this time.
You use the word ‘young’ youth staff. Jeff himself was a MAN, he was
not ‘young’. You use the word to paint it as if, it was a teen leader
of the teen group, instead of a grown man. No less a Pastor of the
Church, and Son of the Pastor of the Church.
> What more, besides informing your mom and dad, would you have
> thought was scripturally required to deal with young, youth staff at
> this time.
Its not even OT Kent, look up “Millstone” see what you come up with in
the NT.
How about this: The same thing that Roger Voegtlin said on CNN for
another felony crime of rape. He said he “would be the first to drag
them to the police station”. Then the church could get together and
decide on its own internal discipline, such as ending their
employment, taking back their houses and cars, and disqualifying them
from ever working in a position of authority in the church over
others. Of course this even includes being involved with children in
any shape or form as a ministry.
After their prison time, they would be welcome back in the church with
open arms, as long as they apologized to those they offended and asked
for Gods forgiveness with a repentant heart.
Of course NONE of this happened, not a single thing in any shape or
form.
What happened was legal CYA maneuvers from start, keeping the lid on
it until the statute of limitations was up, non-liability forms, etc,
until today.
> They definitely blew it, but what would or would have satisfied you?
> From your Brother’s testimony, it sounds like Steve said he was
> wrong to your brother. I’m thinking of Matthew 18:21-35 here. I’ve
> many times had people give me less than the apology I wanted, but I
> knew I was to forgive. Jesus forgives. What more do you need? And
> I’m very serious about this.
Kent, would you forgive me if I did the above to your child and wife?
Even if I did not say I was sorry, and I did not ask for forgiveness?
Yes? Then if I did that would you tell the cops you were dropping all
charges?
What if I had done this to many people, repeat. And similar things?
Don’t you feel there is room for justice and forgiveness at the same
time?
Can’t one seek justice, and use each one of these incidents to stop
crimes that are happening right now? We know they are happening right
now because 40 years of FH kids are telling so similar stories. Abuse
is systemic, not an aberration.
Fairhaven, Jeff, Roger, Mallinak none of them apologized to Darrel,
that speaks volumes in and of itself.
Instead of asking Darell and his sister: “Why don’t you forgive, even if they did not say they are sorry?” is Pathetic.
They apparently both love the Lord, and are living a happy life not
bitter at all about the past, they are only bearing witness to the
false accusations of lies and everything else surrounding those
exposing the crimes at Fairhaven.
Why don’t YOU Kent, instead of asking them that, on a public forum,
ask Roger and Jeff and Mallinak why they have not publicly in front of
the church and to Darell apologized to them?
> Most of the commenters on this blog have not given me confidence that
> they have scriptural interests.
Is not seeking out justice and truth, stopping the cycle of abuse
happening there a scriptural interest? How about my suggestions above
on how to scripturally handle the situation? Are not those
suggestions in the interest of everything Bible?
Does the intentions of those that are telling you and others how the
Bible says you should handle these things matter if the truth they are
speaking is still truth? Is the Bible and truth invalidated if the
recording of it is an audio-book read by a heathen?
The apologetics for Fairhaven is a disgrace, even your light handling
and soft words are. If the issue at hand was not about systematic
sinful abuse and beating of young children, but instead was about
abortion or homosexuals, you would be spitting out fire and brimstone.
The people that Jesus said were better off with millstones around
their necks drowned were not gays. They were those whom offended
little ones. So why not the same brimstone?
Cherrypicking the Bible for politics, and not taking the events that
happened, and have happened in many other forms as anything serious
thats why.
It’s the IFB Buddy System. Sorry, but this is outside the realm of
Christs church.
Small point here, Jake, it’s **Darcel**, not Darell.
Just a note: Darcel and the other kids did not sign a legal document. They may have signed a document, but because none of them were 18, it was worthless legally. It was nothing more than a bullying intimidation tactic. :C
AA, yes, good point. It may have been worthless legally, but it would have been a gem in their defense relating to inter-church ‘rumors’ and dealing with other pastors etc. They had evidence of the information agreed to in the document that they could use everywhere except a courtroom.
The legal document was presented to my brother just a few years ago, actually. They were well past 18.
Jake,
It’s interesting, because what Ohio said isn’t what you said he said. I’m personally not trying to disbelieve you, but you make it harder to believe you when you take that tack. If your concerned with truth, that ought to show up everywhere. I would expect some of your friends, who know better, to call you on it.
And my negative speech toward Bob here, for historical record, that he moderated, was that he didn’t come to us with a bad report of Fairhaven, and that wasn’t why it didn’t go well with him. I’m not reporting publically here why it didn’t go well, but it didn’t because of him, not because of anything related to Fairhaven at all. He should not moderate that especially after letting go your comment, Jake. And I know that’s not your name. The name you’re using is a disgrace. I don’t care who used the word that you might use as an excuse for using it. If you defend it, you are again only backing up your lack of credibility.
I know zero first hand information. Everything is second hand, i.e., hearsay. Non-admissible.
Scripture doesn’t tell us to make something like this public for everyone to see. That’s why I asked Bob if he wants everyone to know everything about him. We have heard many of the gory details from folks here that they would best leave between the parties involved. It’s actually good if we can leave things to the fewest possible numbers—reconciliation is easier then. However, if your goal is only vengeance, then you want people to be hurt in the harshest possible way. We all get that with you. I don’t know if you were the one in the interview that said you don’t know how to love. Well, I’m helping you with that. Love is not easily provoked, love thinketh no evil, and love beareth all things. Saved people can love, because God is love.
I strongly suspect you’ve never been abused. People who have been through horrible trauma or severely abused may not find it so easy to love or trust as all that, saved or not. I can promise you I am saved, but because I suffer from PTSD, I struggle with serious trust issues. I probably always will. God is so patient with me, because yes, God is love.
Let me explain it like this: If you’ve ever suffered from a serious burn or cut that has damaged your nerve endings, you may lose the ability to feel. It’s the same thing with your heart. Scar tissue blunts your emotions. God can help heal you, but it can take a long, long time.
I pray God helps soften your heart towards the walking wounded.
Thank you very much AA!!!
The reason I was put in the ensemble was because I knew how to “play the game” so to speak. At Fairhaven, spirituality is all external. You follow a few rules, kiss the staffs butt, run to the office and tell on people…er, I mean gossip about people while they gossip to you about church members, and you pretty much make the A-list. In my case, they hated my mom. When I was a freshman, just lost my dad, I was needing men in my life. I was searching for a friend and mentor that could replace what I lost in my dad. I was vulnerable. I let them convince me to do and say things that I knew wasn’t right and I knew deep down inside I really didn’t believe. To my shame, I let them convince me that my mom was a scoundrel, and the only way to be “right with God” was to stay away from her and move to the dorms. Every kid there is constantly struggling to do whatever they need to do to please Staff. We didn’t serve Jahovah, we served staff. I did what they wanted, gritted my teeth and listened to them verbally crap all over my mother, acted like I aggreed and for a little while I was their darling…heir to the prestigous title of the Next Darcel Mccoy”. They saw in me another singing Black man that they could control and influence like my dad…but they were wrong. They had no idea how many tears I shed alone at my dads grave crying out to God to show me real Christianity, or I was gonna leave church and leave God. That’s when God miraculously brought me down to Arkansas.
Yes, it is possible to go through Fairhaven without ever experiencing any crud. It’s easy actually. It’s easier to be told what to do than think for yourself. Then you graduate and go work in a FH style IFB church and all is well. For some people, like me, it just doesn’t work. I don’t look down on people for being that way. If that works for you, then more power to ya. One problem with FH is that everything has to be white or black, cut and dry. Nobody ever cared enough to really get to know me and figure out what i was all about. It was just “Be more like your dad, you rebel”. That crap almost drove me outta church for good. All that has nothing directly to do with Mexico or CNN, just some thoughts. I could really write a book
I’m not really looking for justification from anyone concerning my remarks on CNN. It’s not outta hard feelings or bitterness. Ironically, is almost forgotten about it until THEY brought it up to me by cornering me a few yrs back and accusing me of telling people. If They hadn’t been gossiping about me to random pastors and church members, this old wound woulda never been reopened. Not because i was cool with it, but because i had made the conscious decision to leave it behind. Kent Brandenburg is a good man, and I’ve always liked him. Allen Golden is also a good man..friend of my dads. I understand why you guys may not agree, but churches with schools like FH need some sort of accountability so these things can’t happen again
Again…to clarify, my testimony is not outta bitterness. I’m hoping it raises awareness and a law is passed in Indiana to eliminate the ” Whatever we say goes” approach to discipline at places like FH. There has to be legal boundaries because i know from first hand experience that the “law of Christ” isn’t stopping anyone there from doing whatever they please when they get angry
“It’s easier to be told what to do than think for yourself. ”
So true, Darcel. So true. Reminds me of a song by Derek Webb which has the line: “I don’t wanna know if the answers aren’t easy”. I blogged about that song and how it is analogous to hyper-fundamentalism here: https://www.fundamentallyreformed.com/2006/09/28/answers-arent-easy/
A similar post about another song which captures the heart of legalism, was this one: https://www.fundamentallyreformed.com/2006/04/22/musical-antidote-to-legalism/
Just throwing it out here if people care to read them. There are bigger issues than specific abuses at stake. It’s a mindset of how to approach God and how to relate to him — it’s a struggle fore people to move past this approach to living the Christian life, and it’s a struggle that Darcel puts into words beautfully in his comment.
Thanks for sharing Darcel. May God richly bless you.
~Bob Hayton
Wow, Darcel…just wow. And to think how many more families they broke up and they are STILL broken up today. Sigh. 🙁
Kent,
> It’s interesting, because what Ohio said isn’t what you said he
> said. I’m personally not trying to disbelieve you, but you make it
DISBELIEVE me? I have not said anything that needs to be believed. I
have only quoted people against themselves and others. I have only
revealed hypocrisy and lies from their own words and others
testimonies.
> harder to believe you when you take that tack.
> If your concerned with truth, that ought to show up everywhere. I
> would expect some of your friends, who know better, to call you on
> it.
Pfft. I said, I agree with him, added a comment, then told how I felt
differently. Straw man. Fluff.
> And my negative speech toward Bob here, for historical record, that he
> moderated, was that he didn’t come to us with a bad report of
> Fairhaven, and that wasn’t why it didn’t go well with him. I’m not
> reporting publically here why it didn’t go well, but it didn’t because
> of him, not because of anything related to Fairhaven at all. He should
> not moderate that especially after letting go your comment, Jake.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Why don’t you respond to the meat in my message, like how I suggested
the Bible would have you handle a criminal assault and battery against
a child by a Pastor?
> And I know that’s not your name. The name you’re using is a
> disgrace. I don’t care who used the word that you might use as an
> excuse for using it. If you defend it, you are again only backing up
> your lack of credibility.
So my lack of credibility is based on my name? Did they not have
debate class at your school that taught you to avoid ad hominem?
> I know zero first hand information. Everything is second hand, i.e.,
> hearsay. Non-admissible.
So what, you are still voicing your opinion and I am calling you and
other IFB buddies shills for FH because of what you are expressing. I
made it clear what I thought about your weak responses in the previous
message.
> Scripture doesn’t tell us to make something like this public for
> everyone to see.
Scripture tells you to cover up crimes and keep them hidden Ken?
In my previous post I made it very clear that many of the things we
are talking about are NOT INTERNAL CHURCH matters. You show your own
twisted morality by equating the beating to a pulp of children with
the offense of consensual adultery between two adults. One may be in
the realm of the Church, the other is a criminal offense to be
prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Go see “Millstone” again,
and check out what falls under the term Felony. You are twisted, this
has been my point.
————-
Spurgeon wrote:
“Why, it is the honor of kings to search out matters that concern the
administration of justice, to bring prisoners before their bar, laying
bare their crimes and convicting them of they are guilty. It is the
glory of God to cover a matter, that matter being sin; but it is the
honor of kings to search that matter out and bring the guilty one to
justice.
Perhaps there is an attempt made to get a certain important witness
out of the way, or to suborn another, or to suppress some testimony
that might be brought against the accused persons. It is never to the
honor of kings when that is done.
It is to the honor of kings that they search matters out till they
bring home the guilt to the proper individual. Nor is it to the honor
of kings if they give their verdict and sentence at first sight
according to prejudice. It is their honor to search out a matter—to
hear both sides of the case. The magistrate who sits in the king’s
name is bound to enquire thoroughly into the matter brought before
him, and at last to adjudicate as justice demands.
————-
> That’s why I asked Bob if he wants everyone to know
> everything about him. We have heard many of the gory details from
> folks here that they would best leave between the parties
> involved.
Really, best how so? Best if your intent is to cover up for your
buddies to keep them out of prison?
> It’s actually good if we can leave things to the fewest
> possible numbers—reconciliation is easier then.
Really? Lets see keeping this in the closet 15 years has made
reconciliation easier? Roger, Jeffy and Mallinak can reconcile
easier? You are full of baseless hot air.
Keeping this a ‘local church matter’. Really? Again, its a criminal
justice system matter, let alone a local church matter that has been
covered up, and which was not a single incident, but has been revealed
to be 40 years of these stories.
You are an ignorant coward to continue to take your positions I
slammed in the previous messages and above.
> However, if your goal is only vengeance, then you want people to be
> hurt in the harshest possible way. We all get that with you.
However, if your goal is only to allow children to continue to be hurt
in the harshest possible way, and for Biblical justice to be perverted
in the Church and in your God ordained Government, we all get that
with you.
> I don’t know if you were the one in the interview that said you
> don’t know how to love. Well, I’m helping you with that. Love is
> not easily provoked, love thinketh no evil, and love beareth all
> things. Saved people can love, because God is love.
Ken, put a sock in it or go down to the local police station, and
protest to the police bringing in the rapists, murderers, child
abusers and molesters. Protest with signs that say “Jesus would not
arrest a child abuser, Jesus is Love” ok? And don’t you dare call 911
when the same thing happens to your child. Unless you are wicked in
your heart looking for vengeance. Remember love is not easily
provoked. Put the phone down, don’t dial 911. Take the matter to
Preacher and pray about it.
What we are doing is based on Love. Not love of our IFB preacher
friends. Love of the children at Fairhaven. The Mexico Incident is not
even the focal point, its just so plain and clear, documented and a
Fact. The CNN Interview was Roger Voegtlins Watergate moment, a stream
of lies. That was the Tipping Point.
The cycle of abuse at Fairhaven is going to end God willing. Everyone
I have been in contact with on Facebook and the LARGE number of people
coming forward who were severely beaten and abused in this institution
love the Lord and are doing this for his Glory.
Is not the seeking out of justice, exposing false witnesses,
protecting the weak, the orphans, the children not some of the most
important tenets Jesus spoke of?
Again, I call you and your ilk on all of this. You are best to walk
away from this forum, like Mallinak and Golden did before you get
yourself in more trouble and expose the hypocrisy of your moral
positions.
If you are going to respond to me, don’t do it like Allen did, and
don’t do it like you have done in your reply to me. Challenge me in
the doctrine I have presented.
Challenge me in the things I have questioned you on. Challenge me with
some meat and don’t waste more time attacking my alias or straw men/ad
hominem fluff.
Jake,
Another warning, we don’t have to call people “ignorant cowards” and other such things. Please take care to dial back the rhetoric. Some will just dismiss you outright for that, and refuse to listen. And beyond that, this is my site, so please keep it charitable.
Thanks,
Bob
Darcel,
I never actually heard anything about the Mexico trip from anyone until it came to my attention at the time Mr. McNeilly left. I can’t question your experience. Your experience, your perception of that experience is your reality, but I think how you interpret that experience is important to expose to Scripture. I would say that to all of you who are reading the blog.
To start, you are saying that Fairhaven liked you, you were their “darling.” You are saying it had something to do with being black. I can tell you that there can be a different kind of excitement when you see someone of a different ethnicity saved in your ministry, whether it be Chinese, Jewish, or Hispanic. I talked to a Russian this last week and there was something exciting about it. It’s not that a white person has some lesser salvation testimony, but that you so want to see everyone saved. I talked to Dr. Voegtlin not long after your dad died and he said he didn’t preach the funeral because he couldn’t have done it without crying.
I’m not going to comment on your ministry philosophy comments, Darcel, except to say that you are being very, very cynical. I think Fairhaven knows that when they stand before God, mere externals is not all there is to it. I say that at a root level. You might not be bitter. Bitterness can be difficult to gauge in ourselves. We don’t think we’re bitter, but at its root bitterness is an unwillingness to forgive. Have you forgiven Fairhaven for what people did on the Mexico trip? If someone apologized to you, and you did forgive them, bringing it back up on national TV says that you haven’t forgiven them. Personally, it isn’t the national TV part that bothers me, as much as when we don’t forgive, like Jesus taught us to forgive, we might be worse of than the one who has offended us. See Matthew 18:21-35 as to how serious this is to Jesus. Perhaps later you thought that Fairhaven wasn’t penitent enough, but if someone told you he was wrong and you said, “You’re forgiven,” then he should be forgiven. What do you think?
Thanks for taking the time to consider.
Pastor Brandenburg,
Im not sure what you teach in your church concerning forgiveness and grace…I firmly believe in forgiveness and grace, but there also is something called taking responsibility for your actions…manning up and owning up to what you have done wrong. As you have brought up the scripture of Matthew 18:21-35 let me take you to another passage…
Jeremiah 23
1Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
9Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness.
10For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.
11For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.
12Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.
13And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
14I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
15Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
16Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
17They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
23Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
24Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
25I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
I have personally talked with Darcel and I know of far more evil things done to his family when their father died…Dr Voegtlin may have cried for Darcel Sr…but the way his widow and children were treated even before Darcel’s body was laid to rest was despicable and wicked. I don’t expect that anyone will change your mind, or that you will ever look at the hundreds of sheep scattered out of that church, under the guise of Scriptural Love…It breaks my heart every time I hear another story of my friends who have been used, abused, then cast to the wayside… I pray every day that they can find the love and God they so desperately seek.
Hello and for the record my real name is not published here for personal reasons and also because I have no personal agenda and am attacking no person personally. I have been watching this blog on Bobs wall for a while and frankly it is upsetting the way slander is tossed out at those speaking up by other Christians. I know what it feels like to have been abused both physically and mentally. The reason i now choose to share part of my story is to bring credibility to those some are trying to slander. I was born in a Christian home in Northwest Indiana. I have loving parents who do not talk to me really at all. I love them with all my heart and do not hold anything against them. They were blinded by the teachings they were taught and still are btw. I grew up spending pretty much every day doing something @ Fairhaven. I was taught many skills alot of which I still use today. But my past is marred by pain in my mind. I have spent the last 8-10 years trying to forget my past. It brings deep pain every time the subject comes up so much so that i will have chest pains for 2-3 days from the stress in regaining control. You question why these comments and accusations are now all appearing? It is because we have chosen to suppress and have tried to forget but when men have no accountability and the time arises like this to stand with others and show a similar story of abuse the stories come out. I will only give a few personal examples and I have not ever told these publicly before.
I was spanked by my parents many times correctly. I do not believe spanking is necessarily wrong but I have been abused by spanking also. My parents were carefully guided by the teachings of the church at Fairhaven as to the punishment of children. I remember so vividly even down to the side of the bed i was on and the room i was in etc.. when my dad swatted me so many times with a wood paddle i lost count around 70. My bottom was black and blue and swollen. My mother made tea on the stove and soaked cloths to place on my backside then wrapped in plastic wrap to speed up the healing. Several days later in school having received 10 demerits I got 3 swats from the principle. I can remember again many details like the room downstairs in the corner and the light colored jeans i was wearing and being quickly escorted to the bathroom when blood showed though my jeans after the 3 swats. My humiliation was extreme. My dad still believes he did no wrong under the tutelage at fairhaven.
On my last trip as a senior teen I was paddled the first night out in front of the entire group for something I did not do. talk about humiliation.
There never was a reason or method to the madness of discipline. It was given whether or not wrong was done. I have been disciplined because someone thought I might have had a bad attitude. I was not one to question or retaliate I took my licks and strove my hardest to be everything fairhaven wanted me to be. It is embarrassing and humiliating to say this but my mother was still spanking me with a wood paddle at the age of 21. Thats how much I believed in the system then. I was doing everything asked of me or implied to be the best Christian I could be.
I was under the spell of mind control completely. I dated those I was told were good girls and broke off relationships I was told were not right for me. I eventually even married the girl Roger Voegtlin said was the right girl for me. I did not realize it until years later after constant struggling in my mind that she wasnt the right girl for me at all. She was wanted by the staff as a teacher and I was a known complete follower and they were using me to get her. I can tell you I used to cry myself to sleep at night trying to figure out how I could gain acceptance from the staff at Fairhaven. I did everything I was told spent my time in ministries etc. but I never could get that nod of approval or acceptance. I was treated as if I wasnt good enough. That bears hard on the mid of a young person and still hurts when brought up today.
I was so scared of God as a young person that I was afraid to go outside during thunderstorms because I was afraid God would strike me with lightning. I was a good kid by todays Christian standards.. a very good kid. I was given the impression that I was to fear God above all else. That God was a mean home run hitter standing around the corner with his bat cocked ready to beat the living mess out of me the second I screwed up. That still messes with me today. Over a year ago to help me deal with my internal pain and in learning who God really is I got a tattoo on the inside of my left wrist saying “God is Love” Its right where I can see it all the time and it helps remind me who the real God is so I can move on from my past.
I know some religious people may try to bash my story but I dont care. I know the pain inside and how hard it is to still love God. Sometimes I want to totally give up on God because of the unaccountability of the way I was brought up but I know God is bigger than that and I try to grow into a better knowledge of Him.
I did my best to not slander anyone in particular but told my rambling story. Dont think for a second it was easy I have wanted to hide it till i die because it is easier that way but I have been told that it is easier to heal if you tell your story… so here it is. thank you and God bless
jim- will you email me privately? words cannot begin to express how i am feeling sitting here reading your story…praying that God helps you see that He did not reside at 86 E Oak Hill…
dune81@ymail.com
Sam Bain
Jim’s story is the story of so many…
> To start, you are saying that Fairhaven liked you, you were their
> “darling.†You are saying it had something to do with being black.
Fairhaven does not get gaga over a ‘non-white’ or a ‘black man’
getting saved. They do go gaga over their black man celebrity that can
be used for PR.
> I can tell you that there can be a different kind of excitement when
> you see someone of a different ethnicity saved in your ministry,
> whether it be Chinese, Jewish, or Hispanic. I talked to a Russian
> this last week and there was something exciting about it. It’s not
> that a white person has some lesser salvation testimony, but that
> you so want to see everyone saved.
Then they should be equally excited about the other ‘black souls’ that
were saved. They are not.
> I talked to Dr. Voegtlin not long after your dad died and he said he
> didn’t preach the funeral because he couldn’t have done it without
> crying.
Relevance to Darcel? How many tears did Roger shed when he heard about
how badly abused Darcel was on the trip? How many tears did he shed in
prayerful contemplation on the decision to tell Darcels father that
his son Pastor Jeffy had beaten the living daylights out of his son?
> I’m not going to comment on your ministry philosophy comments,
> Darcel, except to say that you are being very, very cynical. I think
> Fairhaven knows that when they stand before God, mere externals is not
> all there is to it.
Let me get a shovel. Darcel nailed it, and it has been this way for 40
years. Thats the game there. Darcel should be lifted up for his
testimony.
> I say that at a root level. You might not be bitter. Bitterness can
> be difficult to gauge in ourselves. We don’t think we’re bitter, but
> at its root bitterness is an unwillingness to forgive.
Kent, I think you are very angry and bitter toward many of us, and to
Darcel. You should work on that. To continue to come in here and turn
your focus on the victim rather than posing questions to those that
committed the crimes shows you have a vendetta against many of us.
I keep bringing up the analogy, but if you were going to court after
your child was beat nearly unconscious and water boarded would your
testimony be driven by bitterness? Or do you consider the criminal
justice system to be ungodly, preferring anarchy? It seems like you
prefer a criminal justice system in Chesterton, Indiana that is very
similar to a Muslim Caliphate. Where the religious elite are the
government taking (or not taking) care of criminal justice.
> Have you forgiven Fairhaven for what people did on the Mexico trip?
> If someone apologized to you, and you did forgive them, bringing it
> back up on national TV says that you haven’t forgiven them.
Kent, how many times do I need to point out to you that its been 40
years of this stuff? Sure he can forgive, but why when the truth is
coming out about the people that are in power have committed very
serious crimes that could put them away in prison. Read my lips:
IT WAS GOING ON BEFORE DARCEL, IT WAS GOING ON WITH HIM AND OTHERS AT
THAT TIME AND IT CONTINUES TO GO ON TODAY.
Darcel going on CNN is part of Gods way of bringing sin to the light,
of exposing criminals that continue to abuse. Why are you continuing
to try and discredit the motivations of those whom are seeking justice
in the name of God through the channels that God ordained us to take.
CNN would not have been necessary, if the sinners had repented. They
are refusing to take responsibility for past crimes, refusing to stop
current crimes, the Press has always been a way for the weak and
abused to get their message out to those that can help themselves and
others from having the same thing happening to them.
> Personally, it isn’t the national TV part that bothers me, as
> much as when we don’t forgive, like Jesus taught us to forgive, we
> might be worse of than the one who has offended us. See Matthew
> 18:21-35 as to how serious this is to Jesus. Perhaps later you
> thought that Fairhaven wasn’t penitent enough, but if someone told
> you he was wrong and you said, “You’re forgiven,†then he should be
> forgiven. What do you think?
Apparently your time and energy seems to be devoted to some agenda to
distract and deflect attention from the true criminals.
I think you are bitter and upset at many of us. Your frame is just
like Allen Goldens, and its textbook Hyles and Voegtlin. “These are
people that are bitter and they are out to destroy the house of God”.
Give your counsel to Roger, Jeff and Mallinak for starters, and urge
the members of your church embrace their family members who are coming
forward, and for those whom have evidence, to not bear false witness
through their silence.
In issues involving criminal activity and severe child abuse, ask them
to come forward in the name of Jesus and contact the proper
authorities with the information that they have. Have them reach out
in Love to these that were abused. This is the Biblical scriptural
path to take.
Jim, I don’t know your real identity, but your story is the same as many of us. Thank you for standing up. God is just, many though refuse to see that what is happening right now is an example of it. Praise God.
Jim, we love you.
Jim, PLEASE contact Sam…
There are people here for you, not posers, but people “That were there”.
ANY THOUGHTS?
Jeremiah 23
1Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
9Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness.
10For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.
11For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.
12Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.
13And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
14I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
15Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
16Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
17They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
23Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
24Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
25I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
29Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
33And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.
34And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.
35Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
36And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man’s word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
37Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
38But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD;
39Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
40And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Jake,
I have only a few things to say to you and I’m not going to comment any more on this post. First, if you really do want to see people helped at Fairhaven, you aren’t going to get that done with your attitude. Know that for sure. You can take that advice or leave it, but it will not help. I guarantee that. And it won’t actually help anyone else either. Even if every single thing every single person said here were true, your approach doesn’t help anyone. Second, I think Darcel can answer for himself. If he would like to, he can email me to our church at our church website. He can find it.
Kent writes:
> I have only a few things to say to you and I’m not going to comment
> any more on this post.
That is too bad, although I am not surprised as I was wondering how
many times you were going to hang yourself with all this rope we keep
giving you and the other FH shills on here.
Honestly though, I am very disappointed. I was hoping that you and
Mallinak and Golden would actually address the doctrine and scriptural
issues that many have brought up. The inconsistencies in statements
and facts stated by you yourselves. Your direct, concise answer to how
you think the Mexico Incident should have been handled as one
example.
These things that we have challenged have not been addressed in any
way at all by any of you, your responses are robotic fluff.
You respond as if you can give any type of answer and if you quote
scripture while doing it, we are to accept it like some Manchurian
candidates brainwashed into a zombie trance of acceptance via Biblical
trigger keywords.
Blow me off, but many in this thread know EXACTLY what I am talking
about in what I just said. We get these regularly from you people.
> First, if you really do want to see people helped at Fairhaven, you
> aren’t going to get that done with your attitude.
> Know that for sure. You can take that advice or leave it, but it
> will not help. I guarantee that. And it won’t actually help anyone
> else either. Even if every single thing every single person said
> here were true, your approach doesn’t help anyone.
How many people are you helping Kent with your attitude? Hows that
working out for you in your jellyfish style approach to this whole
thing? If you say 1 or more, please give us the testimony of someone
that was abused at Fairhaven over the past 40 years, whom are going to
commend you on your attitude and actions in bringing about
reconciliation, restitution, justice and moral support in stopping the
cycle…
You got nothing Kent.
The flip side, I with my “disgraceful name and despicable attitude”
have my inbox and public forum groups overflowing from these offended
ones, praising the Lord at what is happening in his work with them and
this Fairhaven Spring. I know for a fact that many others on this
forum can say the same thing.
True change is coming about, the Lord is working in many lives, and in
this instance it appears he is tired of His name being taken in vain.
…
Kent, you like to thump on about scriptural examples. How about the
example of Christ…
When he was asked a question regarding doctrine, did he look at the
person asking it and say: “I don’t like your attitude”?
Did Christ respond to anyone accusing him of being morally
contradictory with: “Your nickname is a Disgrace and Offensive to me.”
OR…
Did Christ respond many times with bypassing the fluff thrown at him,
and answering with deeper truths.
When Christ was addressed about legalistic, procedural and superficial
things like ‘working on the sabbath’ when picking some food and eating
it, what was his response? It was one of shredding their hot air
attacks against Him and cutting to the meat of the issue.
God will bless those of us being disrespectful to the money changers
defiling his house. God has no problem with me referring to Jeffy the
molester as “Jeffy”, nor of calling money changers by their Names
instead of their self-legitimized title prefixes.
He will reward us for calling out a Den of Child Abusers, and He is
working through many of us whom are exercising the verbal whip.
Only a pharisee would call me out on my Jake Ace name as being a
disgrace in light of the real scope of these discussions. So my name
is a swear word to you? Lets talk about swearing and even further
taking the name of the Lord in vain shall we?
Taking the name of the Lord in vain is not specific to
swearing. Taking his name in vain is actually referring to those such
as Roger, Jeffy and Mallinak, whom take high places in the Church and
defile it. Those that claim to stand for Christ, yet ignore some of
his greatest commandments. These same whom bear false witness against
the multitude of witnesses that come forward to expose them. These
same that act in the same Godless and fully documented responses you
have all given on this thread.
> Second, I think Darcel can answer for himself.
He did answer for himself. You also decided to come ask questions to
him on a public forum rather than just asking him to contact you
offline giving your email address OR doing a simple facebook search
and talking to him directly, it takes 10 seconds.
Thus when we see your hypocrisy directed at others you are going to
get called on it, if you don’t want to get called on your drivel, then
don’t air it on a public forum then respond with ‘I was not talking to
you’.
> If he would like to, he can email me to our church at our church
> website. He can find it.
Pathetic, yet revealing, everything from you Fairhaven Buddy Pastors
on this entire thread.
Pastor Brandenburg,
I find it ironic that I have addressed you more than once in this blog and yet you have ignored me and refused to answer. I know some of my posts have been pointed and probably not received very pleasantly. I just can’t understand how you can sit there and say all of this was second hand and hearsay when alot of it is being told by eyewitnesses. You cast a lot of doubt in each of your posts, yet when confronted you do not address the valid points people make. And I will say this again, Dr Voegtlin, Jeff, and Steve Damron, have all been approached by more than just a few parents, students, and pastors, and in the witness of two or three. You claim going to CNN was the wrong thing to do. Can I tell you CNN got wind of the Mexcio Story through facebook…and came to us…I only told the truth, and cannot speak for anyone else…My heart was free from malice and my intent was pure, in that I knew that if one more Mexico Trip, or Out East Trip happened and one of these kids were maimed or killed, I would have regretted not speaking up and out against the gross abuse. And may I say it is not as important the actual accusations of abuse, as much as it is the philosophy and the teaching behind it all… Parents are not trusted to raise their own children, Fathers are not trusted to be the priests of their own homes. Parents have been brainwashed into believing because some “punk” went to 4 years of Bible college or got a Masters in Bible that somehow, that mans authority precedes their own. It is an epidemic and is the root of the problem.
I have given my phone number 224-563-7649 and email dune81@ymail.com you have stated that you do not wish to comment in this forum anymore. If you have valid answers to anything I have brought up here please contact me…Please know there is no venom in my posts, only heart break and sadness for the hundreds…yes hundreds of friends and their families torn apart in the name of righteousness.
Sam Bain
Ok. I just read where Dave Malinak said that all that was needed in this situation was for an investigation in the church and an apology. Come on Dave!!! Get real!!! It is because of irrational thinking like this that situations such as mine dealing with sexual abuse or the mexico trip are reported and ignored. Just because Steve and Jeff are pastors at Fairhaven does not put them above the law. Then church is not an institution to cover up and protect the wrong doings of their “leaders”. If this would have happened in a public school or in a secular setting this would have been reported to the courts immediatly and the would be serving jail time. It’s high time you quit defending an institution that protects those who they choose to and rips aparts families such as mine. My parents still go there but they have no communication with any of their five childeren. Wake up Dave that is not what God intended for the church to do!!!
First, my name shown here is my middle name just so you all know.
Second, Pastor Brandenburg, I have nearly had my jaw on the floor reading your commments. One of the other posters has repeatedly asked what you would do if this kind of abuse happened to your children and you have repeatedly ignored the question. I think you need to search your heart and find the answer to that question. Then maybe you will finally see where the former students are coming from.
Let me ask this: If your children were abused by a catholic priest or a politician or a Lutheran minister would it still be wrong to tell the story on national television? Would you still
accept an apology from the priest and then let it go because we are commanded to love? I think so many Baptists (of which I am one…IFB as well) sat back and crowed when all of the scandal came out about the catholic church. We were so excited b/c maybe now catholic people would see the error of their ways and come to our church. However, now we have a situation of the exact same kind happening in one of our most loved institutions….Fairhaven. And what do we do? Sit back and say it should be taken care of within the church. HELLO! That’s the exact thing the catholics were doing with the sex scandals between preists and children and we were appalled! Isn’t that like the pot calling the kettle black?
There is so much to say about this whole situation and the fact that people such as yourself are trying to cover up and dismiss the testimonies of people who were abused. I can’t understand it. How can anyone sit back and say you should forgive and love your abuser and let it go? There is a reason for the verse where Jesus says 3 different times in the gospels that it is BETTER for a person who has offended a child to have a MILLSTONE hung about his neck and be THROWN into the DEPTHS of the SEA.
Beating a 13 yr. old on a “missions” trip is *not* acceptable. There is no sane reason why, at the very least, that youth worker shouldn’t have been FIRED the instant they came back home. Instead, they tried to cover it up for YEARS. These were not young men being trained in the military special forces as another poster (I can’t remember if it was you) said earlier. That arguement is so preposterous it makes me laugh out loud. The Fairhaven youth group was not / is not a reform school for children. The parents do not send them there to be beaten and ridiculed a la boot camp. No youth group should be like that. I do not see our LORD encouraging or commanding the church to punish youth in an abusive way anywhere in scripture. Personally, I don’t think it’s the church’s place to discipline children. That is a responsibility that belongs to the parents. Unfortunately, at FH it all got mixed up and the parents, in trying to do right, went along with it. In my mind, this does not excuse their behaviour either. Jim’s story is heartbreaking. As a parent myself, I cannot IMAGINE spanking my child in such a manner. Black and blue? Bleeding? What in tarnation? How does that foster a love to do right?
You called the leaders on the Mexico trip “young” men. I take issue with that. As a graduate of FH, and a worker in my own church I put myself and my husband in the youth worker’s shoes. We would *NEVER* think it was okay to do even a fraction of what happened on that trip. Saying they were “young” men at the time, as if to excuse their behaviour because they didn’t know any better, is shameful. Any youthworker worth their salt should know / understand how to react to situations with “troublemaker” teens without using physical force. And if they don’t they should, without a doubt, be removed from authority immediately. Instead the “young” youth leaders on the Mexico trip were give MORE authority in the coming years. Leading more trips. Teaching college classes. Teaching children on Sunday. Leading buses. Preaching at Empowered Youth. The list goes on and on. It’s as if FH was rewarding their behaviour. They didn’t have to answer for it at all. They were given opportunities to do the same kind of thing again and again. It would be like you, as a pastor, knowing your youth leaders abused your children and handing your children over to their abusers for years afterward. It DOESN’T EVEN MAKE SENSE.
I have no idea, Pastor Brandenburg, if you will read this. I would like to know your response. In your last comment you say that Darcel can answer for himself and give your email. You act as if he hasn’t already answered. I can find at least 2 lengthy comments from him on this post alone explaining why he gave the interview and giving background information. What else do you want from him?
Finally, as a faithful church member and worker in my local IFB church and as a graduate from FH, I say that I am appalled and ashamed of my alma mater. I have no desire to ever return for another preaching conference or empowered youth. I will never recommend their college to any youth. I believe as pastors and leaders we are held to a high standard, one that is “blameless” and “not a striker” (I Tim. 3). Not to mention verse 7 in that chapter: “Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” Dr. Voegtlin has, in my opinion, thumbed his nose at integrity and honesty. If he has fallen into the devil’s trap, he has no one to blame but himself as the leader of the church.
There are so many blemishes on FH’s record right now you almost can’t see through them. This whole story is a shame to the cause of Christ and not because of the people who are coming forward but because of the people who perpetrated the abuse in the first place.
Wow…Amen and well said!
I agree 100%!!! Very well spoken.
Agree….
Sam, I actually was thinking about Jer 23:1 quite a bit this morning, it was just running around in my head…and then I got on here and you have posted it twice!
Jim, I am so sorry that that happened to you. Trust me there are hundreds of people out there who are more than willing to help you and we know how you feel. My heart goes out to you. If you need anything or would like to talk my number is 219-921-3369 or my email is JeremiahSouza2004@gmail.com
God bless
Allen Golden let’s get one thing straight, I do not have any underlying hatred for Fairhaven or any of its members. I believe in spanking as recorded in God’s word, but do not condone abuse of any kind. What I do not like is those whom abuse their authority can claim this to be associated with God’s Authoritative word. Personally, I think you are one of those type Darcel mentioned that likes to gossip and say things about people that are not true. Ask yourself this one question, How could you possibly stand in any kind of defense for Roger and staff members that have corrupted God’s words, broken established laws, in their actions and behaviors. You are a descent person, but I have always been dumbfounded by the way you suck up to such as these, whom pervert God’s word; perhaps all for the sake of maintaining a good status with your peers, or so you do not lose a paycheck. I have not ideal I am just speculating. Perhaps you can define more better for us as to why you attempt to defend these ingrates that are currently running this cultic dynasty?
Allen, let me demonstrate some the folks at Fairhaven, whom I love very dearly, as they had a very positive impact on my life. For starters ,my parents, no need to elaborate on that one. Then we have Mr. and Mrs. Yockey. Mr. Yockey’s smile, charm, and humor were the tops. I also appreciated his spankings as they did me well; btw, they were not abusive but rather deserving and appropriate. Coach Smith, one of my favorite, not only is he a great athlete, but he is an awesome preacher and bible teacher, whom is filled with the Spirit as God gave witness. Mr. Gregg Smith, the one whom broke the ice for me when I attended Fairhaven, as I was not accustomed to the drastic change of this environment. Mr. Loder, a great bible teacher, whom I do not agree with on everything but he taught me well, suffice to say. Mr. Mc Neilly, hands down the greatest theologian and bible Scholar that Fairhaven has ever had, whom most likely was the only person qualified to take over Fairhaven as it sought a new pastor; thus being filled with the Spirit and having great wisdom and godliness. Dr. Darrel Champlin, my champion, whom taught me things about God I never realized I could learn. Of course there are many members, but no need to cover that; as demonstrating the love I have for staff at Fairhaven easily disproves your accusation that I have an underlying hatred for Fairhaven. No I Do not, I just have an underlying hatred for the sinful actions that have transpired there. I do not even hate Roger; by God’s grace, I am beyond that point. I truly feel very sorry for R.E.V., knowing he has to face a just and holy God and answer to all the atrocities and spiritual cologne he has worn over the years: the trappings, counterfeit, cover-ups will all be naked and open unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. His presumptuous actions, statements, and self willedness will be judged by God. All his hard damaging speeches will be judged by God. In sensing no fruits of the Spirit, this all we be judged by God; thus God’s word has already judged such individuals, whom having a form of godliness, deny the power there of. I contend, you err great by accusing me of having an underlying hatred for Fairhaven. I actually tended there far longer than you and still have family and friends there whom I love dearly.
I cannot stress enough that I am NOT anti-spanking, but many of the parents at Fairhaven (under the preaching of Roger V) take spanking way too far. At the age of 5, when I would not stand for my 3 spankings with a paddle, I was put over my dads knee and hit (yes, he literally counted to 50) me 50 times with a belt. My butt and legs were black and blue. My mom tells me this happened to me several times starting when I was 4, unfortuneatly I don’t remember those, I only remember this one. My therapist tells me it is common to have holes in your memory, when you suffer abuse like this. I was diagnosed with PTSD a few years ago. (I think a lot of us have it). The spankings administered by the Principal may ve been only 3 swats, but those 3 swats were hard enough to break paddles. How many of you saw paddles broken? That is child abuse. The 3 swats left bruises on my bottom. That is how hard they spank. This is just the beginning of the abuse.
Alright, so I’m making one more comment.
I’m sorry for anyone who was abused at Fairhaven or by their parents at any time. As the dust clears here, it is something I will definitely address with Fairhaven. It is not something I support even one iota. I have no direct knowledge, but I will talk with the two people, who are in our church, who grew up there. I’ve never heard from them that they were abused. None of our 5 graduates were abused, nor the one spouse who also graduated from there. Our last student graduated from there two years ago. I do not believe humiliation should be a regular or common means of seeing change in anyone. Now and then it might be used but more like a little salt with the rest of your meal, sort of like what Paul did with the church at Corinth. Rare. When humiliation is a regular feature of your life, you might be inclined to use it as your own tool of change like has occurred by many with me here. It is carnal weaponry. Even if it is effective, it does not glorify God as a means of change, if regularly used. Most of it is wrong. So again, if you were abused, I am sorry for you and hope the best for your future. Do not let it cause a pendulum swing away from Christ and the truth of His Word.
Kent,
Thanks for that.
Could you follow up with what you think should have happened and what should have been done if the events described by all the witnesses, all of them, from the beatings, waterboarding of Darcel, lies to parents, everything. Assuming it was all true. What should have been the scriptural and moral actions that the church pastor, its deacons, the church and the parents should have done?
Thanks
I appreciate this post.
I agree, Allison, and know exactly where you are coming from; thus there have been abuses at Fairhaven, primarily guided by Roger’s statements as, “If they move it is rebellion, etc.” These are the spankings that turn into long drawn out abuse ceremonies. Many are guilty of such and should repent. The bottom line here, is if parents had more time to tend to their family affairs instead of building an empire for man, they would not and would not have neglected their families. Weak families make spiritually weak churches. Strong families, make powerful churches which can prevail against the gates of hell.
Some people will never believe anything that is said here. And honestly can you blame them. If you (the ones that did) did not grow up in that church/school, would you believe some of the things that you are reading? It is difficult to even explain how things work unless you were there for an extended amount of time. You may not see any of these things while passing through for a preaching conference. Its a mentality. Kind of like an unwritten rule. Its very hard to put into words what people went through unless you were going through it. With that said, I have never been abused by anyone there. I have been spanked in front of my class but was never humiliated because thats all I knew. I believe in properly spanking but you CANT HAVE DISCIPLINE WITHOUT LOVE. How many times while being spanked did you think your punisher was enjoying it way to much. Its almost like they looked forward to it. I believe there are some good people that are currently there but with no place to go. Think about how many people live around the lake. Thats all they know. They are trapped. Where would they go?
I was looking at pictures the other day from the protest and saw the one that said humiliation is not in the Bible. That is true but the problem runs so much deeper than humiliation. If that was the worst thing that ever happened there this blog would not exsist. Just for a moment let us take away the individual stories and incidents. They are all obviously very imortant but lets set them aside for a moment and look at the big picture.
How many grandchildren are going to grow up and never know who their grandparents are? How many families will not be getting together this thanksgiving, and many to come. How many young children will grow up and not have any contact with their older brother or sister? My heart hurts when I think of some of my friends who cant pick up the phone and hear their mom or dad on the other end. How can a place have such a huge outreach (buses,nursing homes etc.) and be so caring and loving but once you join the “circle” that love and compassion is gone. I dont have any answers for these questions but so many families are broken and generations are being lost. All in the name of what? God? Alot of the stories told are sad for anyone, especially when you are at a place where the love of God is supposed to be. Has anyone ever heard of the song “How Shalow the Fathers Love”? I havent either.
I have many wonderful memories from there and many of which are from people that have voiced their concerns here. There are many good things I learned while there. Some of which I will keep with me forever. Not to long after we moved, I remember being at my new church and hearing people lift up the “backslidden” in prayer. I also saw church members encouraging people who were not faithful members. I saw young adults, who had been out of church, get greeted with hugs and encouragement. I had never seen anything like this before. Members would look to our Pastor not only to preach about hell and salvation, but also someone they could confide in during times of distress and in need of spiritual counsel. My church is not perfect nor do they claim to be. Their eyes seem to be on a bigger prize than telling families how to live their lives in their own home. I learned Christianity is about my personal, daily relationship with my Lord. Although preaching on “revival” and “standards” may be important, all those things tend to fall into place when your relationship with God is where it needs to be. For so long I thought Christianity was knowing how many inches below the knee a girls dress should be.
Lastly, I am so glad that if/when I dissapoint my dad he may be dissappointed but he always loves me. My dad has become one of my best friends and is constantly encouraging me. He may not agree with everything I do but he is always there for me. There is no way we have this relationship if we were still there. Ive also learned that using the “L” word does not mean you are not a “real man.”
I am also so glad that when I fail my Heavenly Father, He doesnt turn his back on me. I am glad He doesnt kick me while I am down. There is a huge difference between fearing God and your pasor, and living IN fear of God and your pastor.
To Butch, Sam, and all the others who have been affected: Gods grace is sufficient. We all should say a prayer for the many teens and children who dont have a voice in this matter. Some of whom we dont even know. And a big shout out to all the kids who used to call the lake your front yard. I love you guys. If you are reading this, and have written off God all together because of your story, please dont give up. On behalf of anyone who has done you wrong in the name Jesus, I am sorry.
If you dont agree with everything I have just said and feel the need to question any of my comments, then you are not in Gods will. Rebels. HaHa Im joking.
For now I am using my middle name. Â I may use the name I am known by in the future. Â A sibling of mine graduated from Fairhaven. Â I made friends there during my jr/sr high years. Â Some names were Abby and Aaron S., Kyle C, Willie B., E. Ramos, Trisha —, Kathy A., Â Gabe—-, Kim — . .Â
As a young man being raised in a Godly, disciplined, Biblical home I came to see FH as a place that was NOT a fair haven.  I began to think of it as a great ship that sailed the ocean of fundamentalism.  It looked impressive.  It had a strong captain.  It was “first class” and “sharp.”.  Even the lifeboats were the best.  The crew appeared to be outstanding.  .It seemed awesome in many ways.  However, I was very disturbed by so many wrecked souls and broken hearts in it’s wake.  Particularly those who were raised in the church.     It was terrible to me that when there names came up they were spoken of as if they were dirt that had been swept overboard  instead of with tears and compassion.
I slowly but surely began to see that FH was NOT like the firm, but Scripturally loving church that I was a member of. Â I saw kids abused. Â I saw ridiculous and carnal rebukes of kids in front of large groups of their peers. Â There was a palpable pride and worldly machismo among many of the men. Â The arrogance and pseudo-manliness even pervaded the attitude and speech of the elementary boys.
Contrary to 1 Cor 13 I witnessed “rejoicing in iniquity” when people were “caught” while rejoicing over the good things of God was looked upon with suspicion. Â
I observed that to be of a happy and joyful spirit was cause for concern among the “staff”. Â There was a marked paranoia of anyone that wasn’t their definition of “serious”. Â One had to work very hard to prove that they loved God if they happened to be pretty or of beautiful countenance. Â
Any students that I knew that attended Fairhaven from other churches were suspect.  After all, FH youth were the “Special Forces” of Fundamentalism.  The attitude seemed to be that the other pathetic churches that sent students there were merely supplying recruits that could be made into something useful for the Lord.  I heard FH leadership say things like, “when you get here we will teach you a what it is to work” as if there were no other homes or churches where such work ethic could be acquired.
It was my experience that FH college students would develop an admiration for “preacher” that went beyond the Scriptural teaching of honor and respect designated in 1 Thes 5, Hebrews 13, etc. Â This admiration translated to a lessening respect for their pastor at home. Â
It bothered me that “Preacher” did not like the Biblical title of Pastor or Shepherd. Â There was an implied sense that “pastor” was more wimpy than “preacher.”
I found it strange that the home church and pastor of FH college students could not provide adequate counsel and accountability during school breaks and the summer.  Students would have to report to FH what service had been done for the Lord during Deragon durations of time.  Over time I began to develop the impression that FH considered this to be  necessary because the home church just couldn’t be trusted to do the work of the ministry at the level of FH. Â
The humiliation concerning body types, weight, etc. Are facts verified by the testimony of a multitude of witnesses.  The concern that  young men were sodomites because they played piano is reality.  I observed these
The way that I have observed FH deal with sin has no basis in Scripture. Â Jumping to conclusions, “pitching a fit” in the pulpit, tattling to staff, lumping people into categories with the New Age based personality chart (rocky choleric, sanguine, . . .) etc. is not what a serious student of the Bible finds as the means of helping a brother or sister who needs restored.
Even the way that relationships with other pastors were severed bore no resemblance to Biblical confrontation or separation. Â Everyone but the “unfriended” one would know where he had messed up. Â He just stopped being invited. Â Â
Unfortunately, my experience with Fairhaven led me to the conclusion that there was a seemingly all-pervading spirit of anger and bitterness. Â It affected everything I was privy to in that group.
Sadly,based on what I have observed I must admit that many of the accusations I have read the last few days are believable to me. Â I wish they weren’t. Â
If you are still reading I would like to present two thoughts: Â
First, to those who want this to just remain something that FH should deal with I would ask what is to be done with a church that does not deal with their problems in a Biblically just fashion? Â Remember how RV and FH publicly decried Hyles and FBCH Â They took that public stand, in part, because at FBCH there was no Biblical pattern followed for resolving such issues. Â It is my personal conviction that I cannot meddle in the affairs of another church, but, if they do not follow Biblical practice in dealing with such matters, I am responsible to make it clear that I will not stand with them. Â Certainly I should not encourage them in their failure or condone their lack of orthopraxy. Â Â
Second, to several who are writing against FH here:  If you knew my doctrine and practice you may not like me very much.  Much of my doctrine and practice is the same as FH’s.  Where you and I agree is on the  point that any and all spiritual, emotional, physical, and sexual abuse is evil and should be dealt with in a Scriptural manner.  Some of those aforementioned types of abuse must be handed over to the proper legal authorities in order for them to be handled Scripturally.  I would encourage you to not be ungodly in your response to any wrong that you have endured.  Please don’t use your hurt as an excuse for being hateful. Seek the Scriptures.  Be vigilant to not become what you despise.  Guard against bitterness and a desire to just slash and burn any and all who may have some similarities with those that have hurt you.
Please don’t turn from what truth you did receive at FH to a life of self-service and sinful pleasure. Â Â
Before I go: Â I can also attest to the fact that some of then best, most humble, careful students and preachers of the Word that I know are graduates of Fairhaven. Â I rejoice in the good, but I am concerned, and have been for years. Â
Remember that to be the  opposite of FH is not the answer.  The goal is Christ-likeness for the glory of God.
Stan, There is literally no way that could be said any better. The broken people and broken families have always been heavy on my mind. I’ve always had so many questions regarding that matter. Thanks for talking about this with a real Christian attitude.
I am currently a member at Bethel Baptist Church which is pastored by Pastor Brandenburg. I attended Fairhaven for 20 yrs, and it is not my intention to comment on what happened to other people there. I will only speak for myself by saying that I do not feel that in any way I was physically abused by anyone at Fairhaven.
I am commenting in defense of my pastor, Pastor Brandenburg. I have talked to him personally about these things and can guarantee you that he is not, and does not defend any form of abuse of children. He is not a part of any cover up and does not support what happened on the Mexico trip. He is concerned for people that feel like they have been wronged and is hoping for the best in their lives now. He does not want to see people use these things as an excuse to totally go the oppossite direction and live in complete disobedience to God’s Word.
If people want to live in disobedience to God’s word, they don’t need an excuse. They can simply do it. God gives each of us free will and choice in the matter. That’s why Christians should be so gentle and loving with those who are suffering through difficulties such as these so as not to further push them away (i.e., God is love). People have been hurt in the name of Christ, an unholy matter if ever there was one, and if they have pulled away from Him, it’s no wonder. But there’s no evidence of that; there really isn’t. If anything, most have found renewed strength and fervor through Him.
And to Stan, if the Gabe to whom you’re referring was slightly less than average stature , his girlfriend (who was most assuredly one of the beautiful people to whom you refer) lived right down the hall from me. 🙂 I was roommates with S.Moody, otherwise known as Smoody, and Judy, and I cannot remember the fourth girl’s name for the life of me, although I remember she married Perry Someone …
And I agree virtually 100% with everything you have to say. The only place I differ even remotely is that my pastor took the first step with removing himself from Fairhaven, not vice versa, after my experiences there. He did not want to be associated with them in any way after that.
Brandenburg, not Kenderdine*
Sam,
As I said in my first post, it is not my intention to speak about other people’s experiences only mine. Do I agree with everything that happened? No. But I do not find this the proper place to air out any issues that I may have with anyone for that matter.
As far as the things you mentioned, I have never “cried” to anyone about the Mexico trip. Have I talked about it? Yes. But what happened to me personally on that trip was nothing more than a few swats and a good hard workout. I do not see that as abuse. The boys home thing, whether you agree or disagree with that philosophy, in my mind was not abuse; and I was never abused at the home either.
I agree Dan…I appologize for my knee jerk reaction…I have asked Bob to remove that post..I jsut have been defending my intentions and reasoning for 5 days straight to everyone and their mother… and getting weary of it…I love you like a brother from another mother…and Glad that GOd is working in your life, and using you out there in California.
It’s great when people like Allen comes in here to defend the
institution and confirms he saw abused bodies in the locker room,
every time an ex FH kid speaks up, there are parts of their story that
confirm the bigger picture of Roger and Fairhaven.
Then you come in here and defend them, say there was no abuse, then we
find out you were sent to a boys home.
I don’t judge YOU for going to the boys home, nor for what you may
have done. But it’s amazing how many kids from Fairhaven were sent to
boys and girls homes. Where in the Bible is there any justification
for sending your children away to a reformatory, that is exactly what
these places are. The responsibility to raise a child and discipline
them is with the parents.
Now, if you have a kid that is knifing other people, maybe he needs to
be locked up to protect others, or we can get into many other
examples.
But that is not what many kids are sent away to reformatories. They
are sent away because they got pregnant! Wow. The love of Christ. They
are sent away because they were listening to rock music, they were
sent cause they would not conform.
You can say they were sent away for wickedness, but remember, at
Fairhaven as a teen, going to a movie is Wicked even if only for the
fact that you did it when you were told not to. Then if you do it
again, then you are a repeat wicked offender… etc
Daniel, I don’t know what you were sent away for, but sending your
kids away to a reformatory is not Bible.
And for those reading this, as you see the evidence of stuff that
STINKS at FH, this is one of the things that stinks to high heaven.
Here is what the parents should have done:
– TAKEN their kid out of the School
# Put their kid in home school, which bonds the parents with children,
stops the public humiliation etc.
– STOP their bus calling on Saturday
# Send it with your family alone together or visiting the grandparents
and other family etc.
– STOP Sunday bus route which consumes the only free time on
Sunday.
# How many ex FH remember having special Sunday meals with your family
an fellow shipping together? Oh right, only the Unsaved do that!
– STOP going to church on Sunday evening.
# Spend it with your immediate family, or with relatives etc. Rest!
– STOP going to Work Party
# Do home projects together, teaching skills in love one on one with
your kids.
# Do like the Amish and maybe help build each others homes as families
– Stopped going to Thursday night Church
# Have family devotions, play a table game together
– Stopped going to Soul Winning Night
# Witness to everyone everywhere you go, visit the sick in your family
and the families of the church etc, win souls everywhere!
– STOP organized sports
# Go bike riding at the national park, go shooting, put a basketball
hoop above the Garage, play frisbee for 15 everyday you get home
from work and when you get home from work. The dunes and national
park are 5 minutes
– STOP humiliating them in front of the other children by allowing
them to get spanked in front of audiences.
# Discipline them not to embarrass them, but to help train them
STOP all of the above, focus on your own families honor Christ in all
that you do, spend the majority of your and your children’s time
together.
THEN MAYBE YOU WONT NEED TO SEND YOUR CHILDREN TO REFORMATORIES, then
maybe they will listen to your guidance and counseling, then maybe you
also won’t need to think that you need to physically abuse them.
What shall it benefit man if he gains the whole world, yet loses his
own children?
Fairhaven never has been about Families. The only real common thing
about Family at Fairhaven was the 3 hours a week they spent sitting
together in a pew. Everyone comes and thinks its all family
oriented. That always was a crock.
Fairhaven cares about your family to the degree that you sacrifice it
for the common cause of Fairhaven.
I agree with Jim, PR, and Stan wholeheartedly. I have been thinking how to word my feelings. If you put many of our names in place of theirs, the story would be the same. This really has to count for something. I know that this will be read and denied, but I would lay my hand on God’s Word that the journey that these people speak of is the absolute truth!
I agree, Charmaine. From my limited experience there, those stories have the ring of truth to them.
Fairhaven is currently and has been a Cult.
It is not a cult because of their teachings on the family, winning
souls or salvation through Christ.
It is a Cult because of the organizational structure and entire system
from school, church, college etc revolves around a single leader Roger
Voegtlin.
Roger Voegtlin has no accountability, he has absolute power. Roger
Voegtlin alone has full power, there is no Deacon board that can vote
him out and take control of Fairhaven Corp.
Roger Voegtlin is the corporate owner of Fairhaven.
Roger Voegtlin is walking in the steps of Jesus, with a stone for his
pillow. Roger Voegtlin is a man that is worth with a modest estimate:
$80,000,000 DOLLARS
Yes that is 80 Million dollars. He can claim he is not worth that
much, but he would be as was common to hear in Fairhaven in the past
‘a liar straight from Hell’.
His denial would be based on legal paperwork, but when you actually
look at the legal paperwork he is hiding behind, you find that he
alone controls the purse strings, all the corporations and legal
entities that make up any and everything of HIS Fairhaven $80 Million
dynasty. I think having $80 Million in properties and assets qualifies
for the use of the word Dynasty.
Many of you are shocked by this, as it is common in churches to have a
corporate like structure where the legal, financial authority is
distributed between trustees and deacons. There is voting and
accountability with power to enforce it.
The church can vote out the Pastor. The majority in these legal and
Biblical structures make the decisions, and they have teeth.
Fairhaven does not work this way. The deacon board is stacked. It’s a
setup, a sham. Roger Voegtlin is a dictator in every sense of the
word. A dictator who sets up a fake parliament just to give a hint of
legitimacy to those on the outside.
Sure, Roger has never gone against the board, but anyone that is on
the board that goes against him will bite it. If not then, he does not
forget, and everyone knows how it goes there. You are out…
No, lets say everyone came in and was very upset, and the deacons of
the church voted him out. What does that mean?
Well, he could walk away, but it has no teeth, period. As the deacon
board is NOT the corporate structure nor do they have any power over
it.
Roger can sell all the property and walk away with $80 Million USD and
just move down to his beloved vacation spot the Bahamas.
With this absolute power, there is Zero accountability.
Some of you that even say that just say abuse is wrong, but Fairhaven
is great. No. Many teachings are great, FH to the core is rotten, and
the core is Roger. Not because Roger is an evil man that likes to
secretly do drugs and have sex with prostitutes. He is evil as he has
twisted the teachings of love for children, and the teachings of
discipline into something that is contrary to the Bible. The result of
which is 40 years of systematic abuse.
Culminating in the Mexico Incident and this tipping point.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely and the abuse we are hearing about
spanning 40 years is the stink from that corruption.
The Mexico Incident is the stink to show what its about in Fairhaven
as an institution.
The abuse, the fractured families through Rogers system of ostracism,
the stories you hear all are because of him and his Cult Playbook
management of the place.
How many more kids do we need to come forward whom were beaten with
blood coming through their pants?
The system of abuse will end when Roger and Jeffy are in prison, or
have lost their Personal Dynasty of $80 Million Dollars.
Are some of you starting to get the picture?
> I found it strange that the home church and pastor of FH college
> students could not provide adequate counsel and accountability during
> school breaks and the summer. Students would have to report to FH what
> service had been done for the Lord during Deragon durations of time.
> Over time began to develop the impression that FH considered this to be
> necessary because the home church just couldn’t be trusted to do the
> work of the ministry at the level of FH.
Bingo. This is why they continue to fight to spank children in
school. There is no scriptural basis in any shape or form to defend
the spanking of children by anyone else than the parents.
A friend on another forum brought up the point that FH likes to
criticize parents for giving the responsibility of rearing up their
kids to the state, while Roger then has them give up the
responsibility of rearing their children and spanking them to
Fairhaven Corp.
The Biblical command to discipline your children, this includes
spanking them, was in every case directed to parents with their
children.
My point is that Roger and Farihaven Corp do not trust many of the
parents to take care of discipline, they take the responsibility out
of the hands of the parents. Of course many parents do their own
‘deliver your child from hell’ beatings outside the school. That aside
the institution doing the spanking leads to Cult like results of
obedience to the institution and its leaders.
There is no reason why Roger cannot eliminate spanking from the
school, and tell parents to do it themselves. If the child is a
problem in school, parents can discipline as necessary. There really
is no issue here. If the child continues to cause problems, the school
can terminate the contract of schooling with the parents.
When you look into it this way you do realize, that there are several
reasons why they would not do it:
– There is no public humiliation
– Children need to be spanked, some parents discipline other ways, unacceptable
– Power over the minds of the children must be taken away from the parents
– If THEY don’t spank, then parents wont, and they will Lose $$$ in tuition when they are expelling so many people (in their fears)
– To create an environment of fear in the school
– With fear, children have more of a tendency to kiss teachers/staff butts, in order to get a nod of approval. Not about right, but about trying to get recognition
Read read read the stories coming out, all the posts on this
thread… You will see its not one thing, you will see its a very
large picture of a Cult and its leader Roger, pulling the strings of
Fairhaven Corp.
For the record, I don’t think this is about money. I know it could look that way, and I know that Roger Voegtlin taught us in C.E. that their church situation was unique and he set his own salary (he said he was worried the church would pay him too much).
But I don’t think every cult is founded by a leader who is disingenuous and out to get money. I may be proven wrong, but I think Roger Voegtlin sincerely believes he is doing the best for his church he can. He is just very wrong. And he won’t tolerate criticism because he thinks “old school” and sees everything as an attack. He is very pragmatic and man-centered in his philosophy and tries to control everything he can. And his desire in controlling is to help you raise your kids for God. But the way it’s done and how it’s done amounts to distrusting the work of God’s Spirit in anyone else to make their own decisions, and a big mess has come from it.
I also think in an effort to protect the church, he has swept things under the rug, and I don’t apologize for him or excuse him. By now, he has done much wrong. But I don’t think he set out to get here, and it’s not about money. At least in my opinion. Still, I think these stories are accomplishing some good and hopefully some pressure will be given to Fairhaven to rethink their leadership structure and lack of accountability, and to see how their “sincere” actions have truly harmed outsiders and other Christian believers.
Bob,
Awesome post. Let me clarify a few things and comment to some of your post:
My point was not that this was about money and the gaining of riches.
My points were:
– He is OMNIPOTENT at Fairhaven, and he personally is worth $80 Million USD.
– I challenge anyone to dispute this.
– There is no board of deacons that has any such power to remove him from any position, from the bank accounts, from the corporation.
– Absolute power corrupts
– He has no accountability. Z E R O.
Thus with this power, he has created his own dynasty of control, and the techniques used, and his “management” style is pure Cult textbook.
So in summary all of the $80 Million USD talk was about how this is HIS net worth, and he controls everything lock stock and barrel, there is no accountability structure. Add all that up, with all the testimonies coming out now, and the picture starts to come together.
Let me comment on your post because it was excellent:
> For the record, I don’t think this is about money.
I don’t think its about money, but I do think him having a net worth
of $80 Million USD, and personal full control of all of that money IS
ABOUT POWER. Power, Control and Full Dominance aimed at (and
accomplished) a system where any and all forms of checks and balances
are crushed. In the name of the Lord or not makes no difference.
> I know it could look that way, and I know that Roger Voegtlin taught
> us in C.E. that their church situation was unique and he set his own
> salary (he said he was worried the church would pay him too much).
Did he ever tell you and the Church how much he made? If so please
share with us the salary and what year it was that he was taking that
in. Also if you know his expense account, perks like who paid for his
house? His salary? or the Corp.
> salary (he said he was worried the church would pay him too much).
Incredulous and pathetic. If he was worried how much he got paid, he
would let it be known publicly how much he got paid. Imagine Obama
saying, “I set my own salary because I am afraid Congress would pay me
too much.” He would be mocked through history.
I think having the entire church or the board of deacons decide his
salary is within the realm of Biblical teachings. Anything else is a
farce.
> But I don’t think every cult is founded by a leader who is
> disingenuous and out to get money.
Completely agreed. Look at Warren Jeffs, and dozens of other infamous
cult leaders, these guys are in it for their beliefs, even if the
control structure is based on power and maintaining it.
> I may be proven wrong, but I think Roger Voegtlin sincerely believes
> he is doing the best for his church he can.
Absolutely agreed. He also believes this about the beatings he did
himself, and what he knew about and or encouraged by the other
families. Roger has read his bible a lot, but it seems that he was
stuck on a desert island for 10 years alone, with only one bible verse
to read all day every day: “Thou shalt beat him with the rod and thou
shalt deliver his soul from hell.” Roger is out to save souls from
hell.
> He is just very wrong. And he won’t tolerate criticism because he
> thinks “old school†and sees everything as an attack. He is very
> pragmatic and man-centered in his philosophy and tries to control
> everything he can. And his desire in controlling is to help you
> raise your kids for God. But the way it’s done and how it’s done
> amounts to distrusting the work of God’s Spirit in anyone else to
> make their own decisions, and a big mess has come from it.
Agreed fully.
> I also think in an effort to protect the church, he has swept things
> under the rug, and I don’t apologize for him or excuse him. By now, he
> has done much wrong.
Exactly! Even serious crimes he has covered up for, he honestly feels
that it is best for the cause of Christ. Of course a few of us beg to
differ.
> But I don’t think he set out to get here, and it’s not about
> money. At least in my opinion.
It’s not about money in terms of filthy lucre like many TV
preachers. The money aspect though is about Power and control to do
things his way, and to crush anyone that may attempt to stand in his
way.
> Still, I think these stories are accomplishing some good and
> hopefully some pressure will be given to Fairhaven to rethink their
> leadership structure and lack of accountability, and to see how
> their “sincere†actions have truly harmed outsiders and other
> Christian believers.
Yes! I loved the poster in here, was it Allan? That said he did not
have his name on the corp? Kudos Allan! This actually should be taught
to the College students along with the other aspects of accountable
church corp structures.
Bob, thanks for your angle you brought up here, many of us have talked
about the exact points you brought up within the past few days.
The problem though… Is that he is not open to reason, and will not
back down, and he will think that he is riding on the white horse of
God until the end. This is the dangerous part of all of this. Your
description of him is true.
A quotation by Bertrand Russell gives his interpretation of
megalomania: “The megalomaniac differs from the narcissist by the fact
that he wishes to be powerful rather than charming, and seeks to be
feared rather than loved. To this type belong many lunatics and most
of the great men of history.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalomania
Roger Voegtlin is a Megalomaniac for Christ. His thirst for and
maintenance of his power is based on his desire to be powerful for
Christ.
The rest of us don’t look up to him on his horse, we are looking all
around us at the corpses in his wake.
bob where do you get the figure 80,000,000.00 from? do you have the legal documents to prove this? not attacking you but just questioning where this info came from.
You mean “Jake”. I never said 80,000,000…. I was replying to Jake….
Sam,
That was me. No I don’t have legal docs for this, I wish someone would do an itemized accounting of this. When I first heard it, it sounded a little shocking, but its not if you look around. This number is what is being thrown around, and I feel it is also close.
A few things, one source estimated the auditorium and gym to be worth about $8 Million USD.
Think of all the other buildings. All the other homes, the upper field, the Lake, property, parking lots etc.
Now look at the location. Houses down the street on morning side go for a pretty penny, I know of homes on Oak Hill that are worth over a Million USD. This place is one of the most prime real estates in all of Chesterton by virtue of its location on the corner of 49, its proximity to the national lakeshore. Just a few miles north remember, is all US National property.
It all adds up pretty fast, and the $80,000,000 Million might even be a low ball if you count potential properties in other states, or possibly in the carribean, cash accounts, government bonds, treasury notes, stocks, mutual funds or other investments or assets the church may have.
Again, to remain in perspective, remember all of this is fully owned 100% via Roger and his legal shell structures through which he controls.
I’ve written three things this week that apply here. I will only comment on them at my blog.
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2011/09/how-to-handle-doctrinal-and-practical.html
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2011/09/cutting-through-wrong-messenger-to.html
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2011/09/groupthink.html
I find it quite telling that you say you don’t want to hear anything from a woman.
Deborah, Jael, Anna, Esther, Huldah, and many others are mentioned for their wisdom, strength, and judgement. God used women then, and He uses them today.
Kent,
Thanks the posts, and the one on how you handle issues in your church.
Could you get more specific and follow up with what you think should have happened and what should have been done if the events described by all the witnesses, all of them, from the beatings, waterboarding of Darcel, lies to parents, everything. Assuming it was all true. What should have been the scriptural and moral actions that the church pastor, its deacons, the church and the parents should have done?
Thanks
80,000,000 is probably double of what it is actually worth. There are no homes at all on Oak Hill Rd. worth one million dollars. you can take that to the bank. One good way to find out is look at their tax assessments as this is most likely within 90% of being accurate.
However, there is no doubt that all is in Roger’s name; thus a given. Further, he had the deacons change the requirements for voting him out years ago when he felt some rebellion and heat from that rebellion. Previously it took like 60% of the church vote to oust him. Now it is some ridiculous 80% – 90% or something of that nature. Realistically it should be 51%. Why would he want to stay; perhaps he’ll skip town to the Bahamas or better yet Switzerland, where he has Swiss bank accounts with all the moneys he has stolen over the years from his congregation. He frequented both places and bank accounts are assigned by numbers and not names there. He is probably worth 20-30 million in cash, and that is aside from what we see at Fairhaven, imho.
Yeah but there’s a negative side to not being incorporated too….if anybody sues the church, its all on the pastor…. (JUST so you all know, I am NOT advocating a lawsuit! Only saying that I don’t think he would be working this all out on purpose, because a single lawsuit would wipe all that clean….that’s why most churches incorporate…to protect the families of the church, particularly the pastor….) Are you sure they are not incorporated at all?
Yes of course they are incorporated, and I do not criticize legal structures.
I am criticizing legal structures that give all power to a single individual whom should be accountable to others.
Just because an entity is a corporation does not mean it is not owned by anyone or controlled by someone such as with a trust. A corp is owned by its shareholders. A 51% owner of the shares has majority control, thus you can say they “own it”… A corp can also own another corp.
Unwind all these legal structures and shells however they be, and the last man standing is Roger.
For example: how about the church members, deacons, trustees have equal voting power in regards to all the legal structures with legal teeth?
When you hear someone reject that, you might want to check your back pocket to see if your wallet is still there.
Sorry,
Jake and Victor, I took down the last two posts on money. I don’t want us to be networking and speculating about monetary value on this thread, that detracts from the purpose of the thread, and I’ve already addressed it.
It’s a line of reasoning that will quickly make us lose a hearing. There are other venues where you can pursue that, I believe.
Thanks for understanding,
Bob Hayton
No prob.
One other thing,
Don’t reply to Brandenburg on here about his posts. He requested you interact over there, if you want to. I particularly think his second post is thought provoking and worth looking at, particularly if you want to defend Fairhaven.
Wow…
Mallinak,
I would like to quote you:
“Above all else, we must remember that allegiance to the truth is our first allegiance. No pastor should ever put his own personal reputation or his own ambitions for position above the truth. No deacon or church leader should put his loyalty to a man above his loyalty to truth and justice. I would rather step aside one hundred times than allow justice to be perverted, or shelter a predator.”
http://fbcalumni.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/on-investigating-a-predator-pastor/
by Samuel Bain on Sunday, September 26, 2010 at 9:10am
We have all heard the story told of the unnamed “Prodigal” who demanded his inheritance early and left his family to enjoy the thrills of the real world. It makes for really great preaching to stir the hearts of the youth to “Do right till the stars fall”. Though many applications can be taken from this, sadly I believe the greatest application and Christ’s main point is lost in all of the “good preaching ” on the subject.
No where is the term prodigal mentioned it has been given in later years by Preachers trying to make their point. Also no where was it said that he was cast out for being a rebel…He left on his own accord and with the blessing of his father. And lastly I don’t believe the “Prodigal is the main character of the story. I beg to argue that this parable was written with the father as the focal point and with parents in mind. Take a look at how the story begins…
(11) And he said, A certain man had two sons:(12) And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
“A certain man” a man with as far as we know from scripture had only two sons. We can see he was a wealthy man of many means. No doubt his son had learned greed and gluttony from his own father. A reason probably why we dont see the father rebuke his son too harshly as he leaves on his Journey.
We all know how the story goes…The younger son enjoys a merry life in a far off land but soon runs out of money…As I am certain his father knew he would…For this was a lesson to be learned as only a father who has lived and learned can know can only be taught by experience. No doubt the father expected his son to return with his tail between his legs and rejoin the family far sooner than he did.
But when the money ran out the son was ashamed…I don’t necessary believe that it was pride that kept him from running back home as it was fear and shame. So he does everything he can, to survive on his own. Odd jobs, taking charity, then eventually he finds himself on a hog farm tending hogs…A far cry from the wealthy life he had once lived. Finally we pick up the story again where he famished and sick in body and spirit decides to head home…
(18) I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,(19) And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.(20) And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.(21) And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.(22) But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:(23) And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:(24) For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Now this is where the preaching loves to start…The wickedness of sin takes you farther than you want to go….Amen!!! But while true and able to draw alot of Amens it is not the theme of this story… I believe after the son did not return in the time expected his father began to worry. In an age of limited communication, the worst could only be imagined. Could his son have been beset by thieves, murdered or beaten on the highway and left for dead? What terrible thoughts could have entered the old man’s mind? “How could I have let him go” he must have cried out …”why did I not more strongly plead with him” No doubt he was convicted in his failure as a parent.
So begins the watch…the praying…the sleepless nights…the ever watching eye on the road to home. The preaching then focuses on the attitude of the returning prodigal…which while important as showing his repentance has no bearing on the Father’s attitude in return…For this son who had left had never ceased to be his son, had never ceased to be a recipient of his love…he was as the lost sheep of the ninety and nine, or the lost coin…missed and sought after… We see the father has no concern for his son’s repentance….just joy in his being found…and once again another misconception…there was no church involved, no pastor preaching about the dangers of allowing him back into the home and family… This was a Father and a Son…reunited a beautiful picture of our God and his unfailing love to us…
My bible tells me that “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” knowing the wretches that we were and are…he made it possible for us to come to him at any time. And once a part of His family, There is nothing we or anyone else can do to seperate us from the love of the Father. This is a love that convicts, a love that draws the ever wandering child to the ever loving Father. It does not breed anger or resentment, for love in its truest form is undeserved, full of mercy and cannot be contained by rules. It is not about regulations as much as it is about relationships… Christ knew that we had no hope without his shedding of blood therein was the love that passeth all understanding…a love that knows no boundaries…a love that can change lives…
To all my brothers and sisters and dear friends Life is full of dissapointments even in people who we love and who love us…but there is one who sticketh closer than a brother…One who is ever near, one who is ever waiting with arms open wide… Remember he doesnt care about your past, just that you come. Your past, present, and future have been purchased with the blood he shed for you…And he will never cast you out…
This is just one thought that I have been burdened with lately and though I have rambled on and on…I hope that you can understand the burden I have for those who have been put out of their family for what ever reason…
maybe my theology here has some holes in it, but this has been the burden of my heart for about all of my adult life…
Thats a keeper Sam. Thank you.
Sam,
Have you heard of Tim Keller’s book Our Prodigal God? You might like it. I wrote about it here: https://www.fundamentallyreformed.com/2008/10/08/our-prodigal-god/
He contends that the meaning of “prodigal” initially was something like lavish, spendy, wasteful. And he says the point of the parable is how lavish God is with His love as the Father.
Also, take some time thinking about the elder brother. He’s not often preached about. But his problem parallels that of legalists. It’s a fascinating parable and the points you pull from it have merit, I think. Definitely the focus is on God’s love for prodigal sinnsers.
By the way, the context of that parable is Jesus being accused of spending time with tax collectors and sinners. That was Jesus’ attitude, one of love and ministry for the lost, not one of writing them off as “untouchables”.
Bob, excellent post, very good writing, thank you.
One last thought of mine after following this blob. For those of you who went to Fh or grew up there or are supporters and you have no stories of mental or physical abuse please do not look down your nose at us that hurt deeply. Please take a moment or 2 and pray a prayer of thanks for sparing you the hurt. And also pray that the abuse doesn’t continue onto others. Thank you.
I am a missionary that spent eight years at Fairhaven as a college student and a layman before going on deputation for a year and a half, but still semi-active in the ministries. Since then my family has spent a full school year and later a half a school year on furlough with my kids in the grade school, junior high, and high school.
In the time I have been at Fairhaven; neither I nor my children have ever seen what we could interpret as acts of physical and verbal abuse on the part of the staff or the school. Physical and verbal abuse can be a relative term and depends much on someone’s perspective. To me, three hard swats with a paddle administered publicly in a disinterested manner according to the guidelines of the school approved by parents is not physical abuse. To me, to be rebuked publicly or privately (historically common in many American schoolrooms or in churches, i.e. Galatians 2) is not physical abuse.
Whether there were cases of physical abuse by parents privately in their own homes taking the Fairhaven’s teaching on spanking too far or cases of verbal abuse by name-calling, etc, on the part of parents; that may be true, although I am not aware of it and doubt that it would be condoned by the pastoral leadership. I am saying, that for many of those who were happily obedient to the rules of the school and college, or to the pastoral authority, neither have we been subject to this “prevailing†physical and verbal abuse described by so many or have we been aware of it.
All these accounts of physical and verbal abuse is so incongruent with my experience and the experience of my wife and children at Fairhaven, that it is hard for us to comprehend the dissonance between our own experience and the accusations I have been reading and hearing.
I do resent the inferences by some in the comments that I have read in this blog that, just because members agree with the preaching and teaching of God’s Word at Fairhaven and have been obedient to pastoral and scholastic authority as the Bible teaches, that somehow we are brainwashed, are yes-men, or are nonthinkers. It seems for some that the only way to be a real thinker is to be disobedient to authority or publicly question the preaching and teaching of a church.
Some commenting on this blog have inferred that Dr. Voegtlin is a dictator that micromanages or manipulates lives and families. Of course I cannot account for the lives of others, and can only talk of mine own experiences; but I have never felt that way. Indeed, I have sometimes been surprised how much latitude Dr. Voegtlin has given me in some of the major decisions in my life, even when he has not always appeared to be in agreement.
Until the CNN broadcast about Fairhaven, I did not know a lot of the details about the Mexico trip; but I do know that in the couple of times Dr. Voegtlin had spoken to me about the trip in the past, it has been with an attitude of regret, an admission that wrongs were committed, and a mention of a personal apology he gave to at least one of the parents.
Some mention has been made in the comments on this blog that there was an inordinate emphasis in externals at Fairhaven. Again, I believe this feeling is also subject to one’s perspective. If one’s personal mindset is to please man, one can be worried about the externals and what others, including authority, think about them. If one’s desire is to please God and not worry about what others think, one can walk in liberty and just enjoy the opportunities to serve God. I have had the experience of making mistakes at Fairhaven and, at times, reproved personally by Dr. Voegtlin; but never have I taken it personally or felt like I was a subject of persecution or that I had “to watch my p’s and q’sâ€. You just serve God cheerfully and take correction thankfully knowing it is for your own good and that it was given with your own welfare in mind.
My years at Fairhaven have been a pleasant experience and I always have marveled how a place that has given me and so many others such fond experiences and memories has been for others such a source of pain and torture. It is a strange paradox that I still have a hard time comprehending unless the difference has to do with one’s own perspective and response to authority.
Clint, why should you find it surprising that Voegtlin gave you latitude in the major decisions in your life? I would find it far more surprising had he not. After all, it is YOUR life. I’d wonder if my pastor felt it his right to dictate to me what I did or did not do with my life. He may find it necessary to give me counsel or guidance from time to time, but to dictate to me the direction in which my choices go is not his place. Not at all …
Secondarily, I attended Fairhaven myself. I was a very obedient student, staying within the straight and narrow. I never even received a single demerit until one day, a beloved member of my family died. Unfortunately, that happened right before Thanksgiving break. Because we were not permitted to go home during Thanksgiving break, I was told that if I did, I would be campused. I went home anyway, because to miss his funeral would have been unbearable. So yes, you can say that I was not serving God by disobeying the college rules, or I was taking Godly reproof personally, or whatever. I’m not, and I was not. I do however think they took their authority too far in my case, but it was a long, long time ago, and I was able to be with those I love at a comparatively small cost to myself. After all, what’s campusing? It was a small price to pay to be with my family during such a difficult time.
After I protested their whole “demon possession” doctrine later in the year, things devolved even further. But again, I had always followed every rule to the letter. I was a good student, obedient, always following both the letter and the spirit of their law. I disagreed strongly with what was being taught in that instance, however, and I could not support it. I did what I needed to do. I stood up for what I knew in my heart to be right. And I was solidly punished for it. It was what it was, though. No regrets, no anger.
I’m not bitter against them for anything I myself experienced, because it was all justified. I was punished according to their rules, entirely aboveboard.
But I did see abuse. I saw abuse of a baby in a nursery, and I was told to mind my own business. I told plenty of people about it, including staff members, my parents and sister, long before the other issues came up, and I certainly had no reason to lie about it then. I was told to mind my own business by the staff members, and my parents told me to tell the staff. Bit of a problem there, eh? My sister just told me, “It happens.” You see, my sister attended Fairhaven as well and had for three years. She knew.
Ultimately, the truth is going to come out. It will. And people are going to continue to believe whatever they want to believe. No matter how much evidence is stacked up, people will always believe whatever they want to believe.
Clint, you don’t realize it but you just proved that Roger Voegtlin is indeed a big fat liar like we have been saying!!! On CNN he said that he didn’t know about the Mexico trip, yet you just said that in the few times he spoke to you about it in the past it was with regrett for the wrong that was done. Thank you for proving our point. He did know about it and lied to the nation!!!
Oh my stars, he sure did, didn’t he?
As was already pointed out by someone on this blog, Dr. Voegtlin said on CNN that he had not heard the particular version of the story that Darcel McCoy gave; not that were not problems on the Mexico trip.
Clint…I can boldly say that that is a lie…My Father was on that trip, and over 12 parents and their children approached Dr Voegtlin about this before Dr McNeilly and Michael did, other pastors have approached and Darcel has been called a gossip and a liar years before the CNN story came out… My challenge still stands for a lie detector test to be given to Dr Voegtlin, and Jeff, and Damron as well as to any or all of us who were called liars…this does not have to be public but could be done in front of a panel of unbiased Pastors. More than one sexual abuser or molester is still in that church and despite the righteous claim to drag them to the police station are still there around other children…Follow blindly if you will…but at least ask yourself the questions and think of the answers for yourself. One former mother counted 61 kids who either ran away from home or the church in a period of 16 years. Thats not pretty math. I watched year after year as families were torn apart and friend after friend would leave the church over one controversy or another…I began asking questions while in college and was always told to mind my own business. The abuse and cover ups must end…once again this is not referring to just a spanking.
If what Roger Voegtlin said wasn’t a lie, than neither was Bill Clinton’s statement: “it depends what is means”. Everyone watching the video clip would have no way of knowing that he intended to mean the particular story of Darcel puking. The context was about the trip in general and the abuse. Do you mean he never heard that Darcel was punished in this way? That’s ridiculous. He should come out and retract his answer or clarify it. But I’m not holding my breath for that to happen. Even people who don’t know him hardly at all, could watch the clip and tell he was lying. I’ve heard of people who had that distinct impression from watching the clip.
The fact he talked to you about the Mexico trip personally just makes his guilt in this all the blacker. It seems everyone and their brother talked about the Mexico trip, but when CNN does, it’s some brand new thing that he’ll launch an investigation on. Where was the investigation ten years ago?
To Clint, how are you by the way? I remember Candy Selling with Rhonda at a very young age…way back when you guys lived in portage across from the Highschool. Amazing the silly things I remember…
But I digress, To Clint and any one else who cares to read this post, “What is your definition of abuse?”
Many are quick to come to defense and claim they never saw abuse and they are certain it never happened. Is 3 hard swats abuse? “Not in my opinion” I do not stand against corporal punishment…It has it’s place.
I listened to my father brag about a friend of his whose son had gotten in trouble for lying in school. The father along with my dad packed the kid and his dog into the family car and drove out to an old gravel road in the Pines. They got out tied the dog to the rear bumper and drove down the road until the dog could no longer keep up. Then out of “mercy” they stopped and made the kid watch as they shot the bloody mangled dog between the eyes to put it out of it’s misery. Then they told the kid he had killed his dog because he had lied. I remember fearing that if I ever lied the same thing would happen to my dog. Is this abuse? (I will let you decide)
I remember staying the night at this same kids house, he was a little older than me and like a big brother. We were sent up to bed early, but I listened as his father threw him up one side of the wall and down the other and physically beat him. Not with a paddle but with his fists. Was this abuse? (again I will let you decide)
When I was in highschool, Tommy Almanza had gotten called into the office for writing “Algebra Sucks!” on his Algebra quiz paper. He was asked where he had heard such vulgar language. (sucks in this context is not vulgar look it up…It is slang) Tommy named myself and another student and we were likewise called in to Dave Olson’s office. When I came in Dave Olson and Pastor Damron were standing there silent and serious and Dave Olson had a steno pad in his hand. He pointed to the pad at two words “crap” and “sucks” and asked me if I had “ever” said those two words…I laughed, and looked at both of them…I thought they were joking till I saw their somber faces. I admitted to having been on the soccer field with the team in a huddle when someone drove by and yelled “Fairhaven Sucks!” I had shouted back, “So do You!” and as a result was sent home by Dr McNeilly who was our coach. They then asked about “crap” I laughed again and said “Well that is a common word in my Home” they kept pushing and asked if I had ever said that word. I asked them ever? as in anywhere? they said yes in your entire life have you ever said that word. I admitted using that expression numerous times. I along with 75% of the male students from the highschool were expelled for 3 days and given 0’s on all of our classwork. But here’s the funny part…when I walked out of the office and started to head home I saw a line of guys waiting outside of the office to be interrogated. Preacher came out of the office door and started berating these kids as if they had been taking God’s name in vain. I watched as he grabbed Matt Hodge by the scruff of the neck and shoved his face into the crotch area of Andy Almanza and said “See Andy, that’s what ‘sucks’ means!” Is that abuse? (once again ask yourself)
I have brought up the Mexico Trip and will not retype what I have written but please do not insult those of us who did witness the brutality both incited and done by the staff members by saying, “if it was true” or “if it really happened” It did happen and was this abuse?
A few years later another kid was on a youth trip out east and had a habit of losing his stuff. He was warned if he forgot one more thing he would be in danger of facing “The Gauntlet” He dropped his ID and when another student picked it up to hand to him. Pastor Damron caught him and claimed it was time for the gauntlet. When they got back to the Church in Ogden Maryland. The boys were gathered in the gym and line up in two lines, this kid who couldn’t have been older than 13 or 14 was forced to run down this line while the youth group, and it has been rumored that the youth leaders joined in as well, beat him with their belts, many with the buckles, to the point that his pants were tore off of him. This kid was left bruised and bloody, to the point that one student told me he lay next to him to sleep that night and the kid had to stand up the entire night because of the pain he couldn’t lay down. All in the name of teaching him a lesson. Was this abuse? (you decide…)
I can go on and on with the stories but unless these were your kids you would never feel the sorrow and sadness I feel for some of these guys…I received my fair share of beatings growing up and many probably deserved…My father apologized this last year and I have forgiven him. I have been accused of being bitter and throwing my parents under the bus…I love Carl and Linda with all my heart…I know I haven’t always been the greatest son, and have made many mistakes in my 30 years. And contrary to what my Father was told by Dr Voegtlin an adopted child can and does love their parents despite there not being a blood bond there.
People, this is not about me, or the others who spoke out, this is not about banning spanking, this is about parents standing up and raising their children in the nurturing of the Lord. Taking the responsibility for that away from the pastor and youth pastor and becoming the priests of their own homes. No one man or men should have the power to turn Parents against their Children and Children against their Parents…and both has happened countless times, for the last 41 years at 86 E. Oak Hill Road. I finish with this statement. Every scripture in the bible that concerns spanking or discipline, is given to parents, as a tool to shape and mold their children in the admonishing of the Lord. But it wasn’t the only tool. And it was never given as a command to a pastor or a youth pastor. I know my words will not be received too kindly by some, yet I am undeterred in my message. Read the last verse of the Old Testament.
Malachi 6:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Instead of bickering among ourselves about semantics, and right or wrong we should be praying to this end.
sorry Malachi 4:6
Sam,
Quit lying about Mom and Dad! You’re renditions to stories that happened in our household and church are absurd and untrue. Yeh, go ahead and say what you want, but you know how stupid you are acting! It’s laughable!
And after they have taken care of you and loved you all of your life, you call them by their first names? And then continue on by saying you love them! That along with your other stupid acts show your true condition!
Bethany
Your experience may not have been his experience, but that doesn’t invalidate his experience any more than his experience invalidates yours. It’s also unfair of you to expect him to sweep his pain under the carpet out of a misguided sense of loyalty. Therein lies the way of more pain and distress.
Name-calling and personal attacks are more of a reflection of a person’s true condition, in my opinion, than someone’s quest for justice.
Bethany,
What is he lying about? We all know your father’s role in Mexico. I have only seen where he has spoken in love concerning your parents. Saying their first names in a post is really not a crime. So he does not have true love for them because he dared to write “Carl and Linda”? Hmmm….He also has been pretty upfront about the fact that he is not perfect…
Charmaine,
I’ve seen a whole lot more of his disrespect than you realize. And a whole lot more of his claiming to love my parents after he has just run them through the mudd. Calling them by their first name MORE THAN ONCE is very disrepectful anyway. You are no part of my family and know only what you have heard (mostly exageration and lies.
Besides what is wrong calling sin what it is…SIN.
There’s more of it than you have comprehension of and more than he claims.
Why do you have to defend his sin?
Bethany
Bethany, some comments:
>I’ve seen a whole lot more of his disrespect than you realize. And a
Disrespect again, is something for the pharisees scream considering the scope of these brutal abuse issues, unless it becomes too rude on this thread, then its Bob that will make an issue out of it. : )
>whole lot more of his claiming to love my parents after he has just run
>them through the mudd
Actually Bethany there are about a dozen other men that are uttering the name Carl lately, and they all do it in reference to the mudd of Carls actions and your father in laws (Dean) criminal prosecutable and prison time actions.
Your Father in law (Dean Leslie) and your Father (Carl Bain) [Ed Note: Both Top Decons and Black Bag Men of Rogers] made this mud bath, and now they are wallowing in it because of their crimes, not because of Sams disrespect. Along with Damron and Jeffy, just for the record so people realize they were all in this crime spree together in Mexico.
>Calling them by their first name MORE THAN ONCE is
>very disrepectful anyway.
The mortal sin.
> You are no part of my family and know only what
> you have heard (mostly exageration and lies.
Bethany, if there is a single thing about the Mexico Incident and it’s coverup that is an exaggeration and a lie, please let us know.
I already asked your husband Jim Leslie and his sister in this thread to please go to Dean Leslie and get the whole story, or come to us all with the truth and point out the exaggerations.
Now I ask you, since you are still on the inside. Can you please go to your father in law Dean Leslie, and go to your father Carl Bain and have them give you the facts, and share them with us, because we have not heard from them.
All we keep hearing from you 3 that are kids of theirs is: “LIARS! SINNERS! SIN IS SIN!” etc…
I can’t wait to hear the full story from Dean, Carl, Jeff and Damron.
Once we have that, we can start to assess who all was lying, the dozen or so men we have heard testimony from, the Navy Seal on this thread, and many others. Along with Chris McNeilly etc.
>Besides what is wrong calling sin what it is…SIN.
Again we have been specifically discussing the sin of parents beating their children until they bleed, and the Mexico Incident. Nobody gives a hoot about the list of sins you or Roger have documented in your filing cabinets.
Just get us answers, did your father Carl and your father in law Dean do what they are accused of with the testimonies, if not, what did they not do, or how were they not involved with the incident and it’s cover up.
It is really quite simple.
>There’s more of it than you have comprehension of and more than he claims.
>Why do you have to defend his sin?
Are you speaking about Carl, Dean, Jeffy and Damron and others over the years at Fairhaven? Because we are, and we agree, the bigger story is that the Mexico Incident is a symptom and example for people to realize they have comprehension of.
Also Bethany, when you talk with your Dad, have him tell you some of the stories they used to talk about at Guard Duty, have him start with the one regarding the “Hand Grenades and the Niggers in Vietnam”. They thought that one was really funny. Several of us young’uns heard that one in person, myself included. Maybe that story can be used to explain your fathers involvement with what happened to Darcel. or not.
Bethany,
I Corinthians 13:4-7. And what about vss. 9 and 10? We know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
I think the next verse is extremely pertinent here: “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Maybe it’s time …
Finally, if what you are saying is what you truly believe, then you better open your Bible and look up Ephesians 4:15. Funny how you have such a vast Christian education, but you’ve missed out on so many of the truly important things Jesus had to teach us.
Fathers, provoke not thy children to wrath….
Matthew 18:10; I John 3:18
My parents sent me to kindergarten at Fairhaven. Two weeks into first grade I received my tenth demerit and a paddling. I had dropped a pencil during class and did not ask permission to retrieve it. My parents pulled me out that day, as I was quite bruised. It takes a great deal of force to bruise with a paddle in three swats.
Thirty seven years later I had an anxiety attack as soon as Roger Voegtlin appeared on the screen. It is well for the Pastor that God is more merciful than just.
Blessings all.
Just a curious note:
Several posts earlier, Sam asked Dave about the apology letter Jeff wrote his sister Cathy – Dave has not made a post on here since.
But not for that reason.
I found some quite pertinent quotes on this very topic today. I’d like to share them, if I may.
“Unfortunately, we have a faction of those in the believing world who like to keep the blinders on when it comes to their Pastoral leadership.”
“But if you have read the article, and read the many comments that followed it, and if you new (sic) how much more there is that has not been said, you might think differently. The Bible says, in the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established. That requirement has been met and exceeded here, and here, and here. So, these are not simply allegations.”
“…we are not trying to destroy a man’s reputation. Rather, we are pointing out the fact that this man has destroyed his own reputation, and refuses to live with it. More importantly, we are protesting the fact that this man, who has already destroyed several lives, continues to seek other lives to destroy. We trust that our protests will not fall on deaf ears.”
If anyone would like to read more on this topic of exposing those who have sinned grievously against children and yet continue in “the ministry,” they can do so at http://sharperirony.blogspot.com in the 2006 blogs.
What a Sharper Irony to go read over on the Sharper Irony blog Dave Mallinak crying out to people to believe him, on a public forum about crimes that he witnessed, a guilty man going free, and coverups by others:
http://sharperirony.blogspot.com/2006/10/profile-of-predator-pastor.html
“One girl was willing to file charges. The other was too afraid. And so, John Price is a free man. John Price can deny these charges, because they have never been proven in court. John Price can call these charges preposterous. But, on my honor, this happened.”
Dave, you sound bitter, frustrated, have you forgiven or do you have a Vendetta, and Agenda against Price?
Dave Mallinak, continues:
“I wonder where else he will do this. Maybe he already has. Maybe there are others. Maybe not. Price does not believe that we are serious, dead serious, about keeping him out of the ministry. So, this might come as a surprise to him, that we are out here, and we won’t go away. I’m guessing that there might be some out there who are willing to put their name on a comment, and show their support of this article. You maybe can’t vouch for everything here, but you could say something. I’m sure that you are willing to vouch for the fact that John Price should not be in the ministry. Maybe I’m wrong. I would invite you to make a comment on this post. Spread the word. I know that several of you read this. Go ahead and say something. It’s safe! I’ll leave comment moderation on in order to insure integrity, but all comments will be posted unless they are absolutely inappropriate.
What about you, John Price? I know you’ll be reading this. Will you take the opportunity to clear your name? Or to smear mine? Either way, you are welcome to comment here.”
So in the words of Dave Mallinak:
“I wonder where else he will do this. Maybe he already has. Maybe there are others. Maybe not. Roger and Jeffy Voegtlin do not believe that we are serious, dead serious, about keeping them out of the ministry. So, this might come as a surprise to them, that we are out here, and we won’t go away. I’m guessing that there might be some out there who are willing to put their name on a comment, and show their support of this article. You maybe can’t vouch for everything here, but you could say something. I’m sure that you are willing to vouch for the fact that Roger and Jeffy Voegtlin should not be in the ministry. Maybe I’m wrong. I would invite you to make a comment on this post. Spread the word. I know that several of you read this. Go ahead and say something. It’s safe! I’ll leave comment moderation on in order to insure integrity, but all comments will be posted unless they are absolutely inappropriate.
What about you, Roger and Jeffy Voegtlin? I know you’ll be reading this. Will you take the opportunity to clear your name? Or to smear mine? Either way, you are welcome to comment here.”
Wow Dave, Thanks. We could not have said it better.
Dave,
I can not believe you deny there were problems – serious ones at our college. Your own sister and mother with Pastor Jon Price – your sister beat 100x’s – Becky V. know that because J confided in her.
Guys, I believe that alot of people like Pastor Malinak and Pastor Brandenburg are not necessarily villians. I think I had a knee jerk reaction in some of the previous posts on here… These men have their own churches with several ex students from Fairhaven. Their experience probably varies and this was all news to them. I want to say to them and to anyone else here that…
1. I am not bitter towards the church or my parents. 2. I do not regret being adopted or brought to Fairhaven as as child…I spent 25 years there almost my entire life. Who I am today was shaped there. 3. I do not believe in throwing out the dishes with the dirty dishwater. Does there need to be reform? definitely. Has Dr Voegtlin and staff been approached biblically on these issues? definitely. Was answering to CNN the best thing I could have done? still not sure about that. But they listened. I had spoken to several pastors about this and no one wanted to touch it with a six foot pole.
I do not believe that I have done anything to hurt the cause of Christ. My goal and purpose is to reach out to the hundreds of kids who have been turned away from God by the form of godliness they were shown growing up there. Will we be able to reach out to all of them who have turned their backs on God and anything that even remotely pertains to Christianity? probably not…but we should try.
I hope that any Pastor who reads this can know that my heart is not full of bitterness and malice…
Sam
Sam, I agree that I don’t think they are villains. I don’t think there is any reason to believe they have participated in these same kinds of crimes. Fact is they probably don’t know about most of the things. Save for Dave giving testimony about Jeffy calling him up on the phone for a confession session about Mexico.
My beef is that these guys are best friends with Jeff. Very tight Fairhaven supporters. They then come on here and instead of bringing evidence to the contrary they whitewash, attack people for their attitudes, their motives and try and focus on the victims possible bitterness and unforgiveness.
This is a sham. Focusing on these things is only a way to divert attention, whitewash the situation and do as much damage control as they can for one of their best buddies Jeffy.
One is known worldwide for his stance against sexual immorality in church leadership, yet he wants to whitewash the brutal beating of children.
There has not been a single thing they have said that has been anything but shill speak.
Why don’t they offer to be an intermediary between some of the witnesses and Jeffy and Roger? They have inside intimate contact with anyone they want at Fairhaven with a few flicks of a finger.
They have attacked people for not handling this scripturally, when that has been attempted with Fairhaven, just like it was with John Price, and the man continues. Then they don’t reply to our requests for ‘well then how should this be taken care of when approaching them is rejected’?
Price is out there, and they are stalking him online and around the net. Church discipline failed there, the state justice system failed with Price, yet these guys openly claim to be stalking him. I posted the links earlier. Why? Because they don’t want what Price did to continue happening to other young girls. Yet we are called a Mob, when we are ignored, these men are still in the pulpit, and the FH machine is cranking away on the next generation, business as usual.
This is the hypocrisy that I have been calling out. If they would take some positive action, then they could be respected.
I think they are afraid to look into the matters. They are afraid to pick up the phone. Because of what they would hear would be true admissions of crimes; because of the lies they would also hear at the same time. This puts them in a pickle. The same pickle Jack Hyles supporters had to struggle with in the past…. Now its with Roger, Jeffy and Fairhaven.
“If I stand with him, I will go down with him, and with the evidence coming out, it appears he is not qualified for the ministry, and has some other serious issues. Can my conscience bear it if I continue to stand with him even when I know of their activities and coverups?
If I stand against them, I lose an ally. I lose some of my closest friends. I lose support of other Fairhaven supporters. I lose family members of my church who tithe a pretty penny.”
—SNIP—
I have asked about this repeatedly. IF this is true, what should be done, they both cower from my questions and those of others. Then come back with more whitewash on the situation, or whitewash in explaining their own previous statements.
In some ways I wish Kent and Mallinak would just go away. In others I think them both contributing here has been very useful and revealing. The posts by them will be used in documentation against them showing how they, just like those Standing Strong and Firm in the defense of Price did, followed in their steps with Roger and Jeffy.
What does all this mean with the friends, family standing up with their Bibles claiming to be for the cause of Christ, doing nothing to get to the bottom of the situation aside from character assassination or whitewashing?
It shows that at Fairhaven, and the circle of Fairhaven, there is one Value that is above all other Values. Second to this first value is OBEDIENCE.
The Highest Value is: LOYALTY
In the Fairhaven Buddy System. The blinder the better.
Jake,
1) Let’s not read into the motives of people posting here. I snipped out some of your comment.
2) You say Brandenburg’s statements are just “shill speak”. I had to look up that word. That’s again reading into someone’s motives and borders on violating my commenting policy.
I have to be fair to all. Please be considerate and not do the same thing you claim other posters are doing. We don’t have to berate and intimidate others to make our point. Frankly, I think Brandenburg already dug his hole through the comments here and is trying to dig himself out, to no avail. He doesn’t need long voluminous posts condemning him. I also wish that what he’s said here and intimated elsewhere does come to fruition, that he will take some action on this and investigate to the level he feels he can in his situation. Even if he only does that, it will be something and may help. I can only hope.
Thanks for understanding,
Bob
Jake and Bob,
You’ve got to make up your mind. You say I didn’t know about these things and yet I’m very, very, so close to everyone there. You can’t have it both ways. Bob here actually knows firsthand more about what Fairhaven does, what it looks like, than I do, because he was there for five years, traveled with the school, was close to the staff for years. I visited campus 6 times. And when Bob came to our church, he didn’t report any of this to me. And he knows that we would be open to whatever he had to say to us at the time. We have a lot of freedom to say things at our church, which Bob took a lot of advantage of. And he said nothing about Fairhaven to inform us of this culture of abuse that now we’re hearing about once the CNN report comes out. I guess this counts, to Bob, as digging myself out of some kind of hole, which by the way, is judging motives too. What do you mean by that Bob? That I’m digging myself out of a hole. What hole am I in, Bob?
And Jake, how many years were you at Fairhaven, knowing all this an not reporting on any of it, so that I could hear about it, until the CNN report comes out? When I came to the San Francisco Bay Area 25 years ago to preach the gospel to the lost, I hardly knew anything about Fairhaven. Our church made it with the Bible and without Fairhaven. I’ve pastored 24 years and raised four children—20, 16, 13, 10. You expect me to do your bidding in a few weeks, when you have known it for decades. If this culture of abuse was so important, then why haven’t I heard it in the past? This was the absolute first I had heard of these things. It doesn’t work, the huffing and puffing at me. You should stick to looking in the mirror. I realize that Bill will be upset at me for talking harshly to a “victim,” and you will relish in his sympathy. Victims are off limits. They can say anything that they want without repercussions.
And even still, you have to be anonymous. My name is out here, associating myself with you folks, not afraid to do that. Aren’t I going to get myself in hot water with Fairhaven, to keep these very, very close ties that I have? Aren’t I going to ruin the closest friendships in the world? Your narrative just doesn’t work. But here you are, hiding behind your anonymity, talking the big talk. You don’t seem to have done anything so far except talk big on the internet. That doesn’t really qualify for anything.
All I mean, Pastor, is that you appear to have bent over backwards defending Fairhaven in a manner that seems unbelievable by the time one is done reading all the stories shared here. You say this is the first you heard but then you say something to the effect that your knowledge of the Mexico trip was that it was some young staff going a little hard with the teens. So you had some kind of knowledge of this before now. As to why I didn’t report a culture of abuse, I did tell you of the account I shared about being in the office with Dr. Voegtlin dangling my friend’s fiancee over his head to get him to submit. But I was of the mind to overlook that. I never experienced first hand the corporeal discipline done in the youth group (not done in the school mind you, but under the authority of the church). I did see humiliation and intimidation, but out of motives to get kids to do right. So I thought it was okay. Now, years later, as I’ve matured and grown in my thinking, and as I have a lot more information, some of it from people I know telling me firsthand what they experienced, that I have to conclude there is some basis to all of this. That and I have also seen first hand the “shunning” or whatever it is that Fairhaven teaches about how parents should treat their children who “go bad” (whatever that means and it can mean a lot of different things).
I shared my firsthand experiences also a couple posts after this one. Those experiences jive with the other stories surfacing now. So I’ve explained myself and done what I believe I can.
**Moderator’s Note: From here on, I’m not going to respond to anything more about or from Pastor Brandenburg. I don’t have time to keep an argument going forever.
As this has now devolved into a rant about Brandenburg and veered off topic in many ways, I am not going to approve anymore comments about Brandenburg or Mallinak and their reaction to this. I think this can detract from the story at hand and doesn’t do much good. I will though let Jake reply to this most recent comment from Brandenburg, but please be short and sweet and let’s move on from this angle of things.
Thanks Bob for letting me reply. I also will bow out of anymore with Kent and Mallinak here.
Kent, hundreds of us have spoken out about the things that happened at Fairhaven over 40 years to ourselves and others. We were ostracized before or after and called liars. Fairhaven is calling the people on CNN all liars now. People have told the police, but there was insufficient evidence, or other witnesses were not willing to come forward. People move on when no one is listening to them. I know many of us knew that God was going to take care of it, and we spoke out to those we could and if they were not interested or able to take action, it all would come out someday.
People forgive, move on, let it be an issue for God to take care of in time here or above someday. People move away cause of work or whatever. Most peoples stories are isolated to a block of time over 40 years, and they never heard other peoples stories.
Then… The Sam Bain report on the Mexico Incident was released to a few, we contacted our cousins, or brothers that were there, asked them if it was true, some in tears told us it was true. Some of our family members participated in the adult directed beatings, now looking back with great regret. This leads to CNN…
BAM. Now with facebook we all come out, and we all start giving testimony to the same stories, different generations. Same Preacher, different staff, Fairhaven… business as usual.
In unison, we all said, “They are STILL doing this?” Time to take these guys out. Just as Mallinak would say if he saw Price in a new church with young teen girls on his lap on some new Church website somewhere. Time to get these people removed from Authority, working with children, from the ministry, and possibly in prison where serious crimes have taken place.
Only NOW in our numbers, and now in our testimonies of truth corroborated with witnesses that were there and saw these things… We are together, not just some single family with a story to tell being called liars and on their own. We are all together now, and have the tools to take action, the energy and momentum.
Why do we call on you? Not cause you are some random guy. You have great standing with Fairhaven and the IFB circuit in general. CNN is not going to get these thugs out of the ministry or prosecuted anymore than they did with Price. People similar to you and the efforts of Mallinak did get Price out of one place. We need people like you and Mallinak to help us directly, and if you cannot do that, at least do not support them.
If we don’t get this IFB church help from you guys, we will get it from Upstanding former FH staff, from other sister churches.
Bob said:
> I also wish that what he’s said here and intimated elsewhere does come
> to fruition, that he will take some action on this and investigate to
> the level he feels he can in his situation. Even if he only does that,
> it will be something and may help. I can only hope.
My sentiments also.
We hope you join us in this continued investigation and dethronement.
Interesting to know that Sam Bain and Jake Ace are one in the same. Wow!
So according to this thread, so far I am:
1) Victor Gonzalez
2) Sam Bain
You don’t get a third guess, because who I am is irrelevant to anything said on this thread.
It seems many people at FH and their friends are very bitter about their actions being discussed, and their doctrinal procedures in handling these things, let alone the legal issues being discussed.
They refuse to actually address any of these things.
They turn to character assassination, smear tactics, attacking accusers or others attitudes, their nick names or in my case saying that I am someone else. ..thus trying to smear the things I have SAID by inferring I don’t exist, or am a ‘sham’ personality.
Instead of bringing forward their own witnesses who were present at many of these events to tell their story which will counter these charges, and expose the ‘liars’.
Here is what I am for: call everyone that was on the mexican trip that witnessed any of these things to FH, on stage with all the kids, and staff that was there.
Lets hear EVERYONES story…
That aint gonna happen. This is why they continue to use these tactics, or disappear when confronted with a direct question about what should be done or about specific facts from witnesses.
Cause, as I said before, they ain’t got nothin’.
Smear campaign is all they have, so its all they are going to use.
Fairhaven/Rogers defense amounts to logic such as:
“They are liars cause they were problem teens, here are a list of their sins”
or
“So what if a staff member raped her, she is not even a christian”
or
“Those making the allegations [that we know are true] are discredited from having any weight to their testimony by the fact that they had sex outside of marriage, smoked weed and partied until the sun came up”
Mark my words, as FH becomes more public, the attention will be deflected from the facts, and instead will focus on mud slinging.
are they? i find that mildly amusing that you would make a statement like that without any proof…
From the information and interactions I’ve made with both of them, I would say they are not the same.
Codo D
LOL…
That is funny…. I know Sam and I know Jake – they are definately two different people! 🙂
Sam,
Who said I don’t have proof? I find it “mildly amusing that YOU would make a statement like that” without knowing whether or not I have proof.
So Codo… show me your proof…this is becoming more amusing by the moment…why would I display my real name rather than hid behind a pseudoname like you…guess it shows just how cowardly you really are. If I had to guess, you sound just as pompous and asenine as my brother in law Jimmy Leslie…so either you are him or a close acquaintance.
Soon after my post to his sister on this thread, Jimmy Leslie hunted me down in facebook. He then later made comments on how I was obviously Sam, right around the SAME time that “Cody” comes in here saying the same thing.
Dean Leslie, before you send in any more family members to defend yourself, would you please just give a public statement as to the entire Mexico Incident and your involvement?
Actually a classic piece of poetry fits the occasion:
Green Eggs and Ham
Sam I am
I am Sam
I am Sam
Sam I am.
I would not like them here or there.
I would not like them anywhere.
I do not like green eggs and ham.
I do not like them Sam I Am.
Say!
I like green eggs and ham!
I do! I like them, Sam-I-am!
Green Eggs and Ham, 1960
Actually I am not Sam, but ye say that I am. Thats fine with me Jimmy, spread the disinfo, it actually works in my favor.
What lies have I told about mom and dad? Specifics please…
Sam,
Would you like the lies you’ve told to them or about them? It will take more than this blog can endure.
Oh wait! I better not air your dirty laundry in public.
Bethany, guess we can add you to the list of professional mud slingers.
As I mentioned in my previous post. Here comes fairhaven, not with denials of their involvement, but with threats to air “dirty laundry” to those that are exposing specific crimes and serious abuse and exposing an entire 40 year culture of their commission and cover up.
Bethany, nothing much that we have been discussing has come from Sam alone, its come from many other people who were there and witnesses to the same exact events themselves.
Can you Bethany please bring forth evidence and witnesses that will contradict the dozen or so people who were on the Mexico trip that have come forward or who have openly talked to many of us outside of public view confirming what happened there, and the criminal adults that were involved on site, and the consequent coverup back at the compound?
Bethany, if you do, please start with Dr. McNeilly, and his explosion and story of what happened in Mexico and what he did when he found out about it, the cover up of it. When he personally with witnesses confronted Roger about it?
Bethany, here is what I said in my previous post:
Smear campaign is all they have, so its all they are going to use.
[Bethany/]Fairhaven/Rogers defense amounts to logic such as:
“They are liars cause they were problem teens, here are a list of their sinsâ€
or
“So what if a staff member raped her, she is not even a christianâ€
or
“Those making the allegations [that we know are true] are discredited from having any weight to their testimony by the fact that they had sex outside of marriage, smoked weed and partied until the sun came upâ€
Mark my words, as FH becomes more public, the attention will be deflected from the facts, and instead will focus on mud slinging.
=====
Bethany, please address the facts of the Mexico Trip, the people who were involved, the following coverup fiasco. OR Discuss the doctrinal issues here on how it should have been handled and what should have/or should be done to those whom were responsible. Including legal issues and jail time.
Hey there, Bethany,
You are right-I am not a part of your family. I certainly did not mean to offend you and I am sorry!
Please let me clarify just a few things:
1. I do not defend anyone’s sin. Your brother’s mistakes has been thrown in his face by many people, he acknowledges that he has messed up, seems to be repentant, and is trying to get his life on track spiritually. That is good enough for me and I believe that God is pleased with that.
2. Saying Carl and Linda is not a sin.
3. I remember him writing some very lovely things about your mother. That is what sticks out to me.
I pray that you and your family will find peace. God bless you and congratulations on your marriage.
Blessings:)
I do find it funny that certain members of my family will not answer the phone when I call yet they will call me out in public. Jimbo, Bethany, “Dad and Mom” my number is 224-563-7649 would love to talk to you in person, though you already know that…Im sure that your caller ID does not lie. Bethany…I have asked you to tell in what way have I lied about Mom and Dad? or about your father Jimbo. Please find one untrue statement I have made in this blog…If so, I will gladly retract it.
Moderator note:
Let’s try to keep family feuds out of this if we can. I think both sides have said their peace and are more than capable of speaking to each other directly or via other means of contact than a public forum like this.
Just trying to not have the comments here bog down into a pitiful mud fight, we might have to close them down. For now I’m leaving it open as some have some substantive things to say for either side and haven’t had the chance to yet and may want to here.
Thanks for understanding.
not as open as you might think Bob, but understanding…
Ok, I just spent 2 hours reading the comments with tears and anger. Tears for you who were abused in the name of Jesus and anger for those who don’t cry for justice.
I believe the comments from Pastor Brandenburg were condescending and outright mean. –Snip**—
I’ve never even heard of Fairhaven until I read this blog post so I have no axe to grind with anyone.
for you who were abused you will find love and acceptance in Jesus. The love and acceptance we all seek is overflowing in his arms.
If there is a fund to donate $ to pursue prosecution in these cases I will gladly donate.
**Moderator’s note: I took out a few lines where Bill started attacking one of the commenters here. See explanation below.**
Let’s try to keep things charitable around here. We don’t need to be attacking other commenters. I know the topic and issue is very emotional and heated and brings out our fullest and deepest emotions. I have edited Bill’s comment slightly. When we loudly protest someone else’s arrogance, we run the wish of seeming to be arrogant ourselves.
Please abide by the spirit of my commenting policy. I have to try to keep things fair around here for people on both sides. Thanks for understanding.
Bill
Send me a message at dune81@ymail.com I can let you know of ways you can donate to help raise awareness….
Sam
Bill,
First, I believe in due process, and a blog isn’t due process. I’m not saying that a lot of what is being said is or isn’t true, it’s just that it is only one side of the story. We could argue about doctrine and methodology here, but this isn’t the forum to argue about what did and did not happen. And if we were to have due process, then everybody must speak to put things in perspective. So you are angry because people are not “calling out for justice,” and that is because I think there is a way for due process to occur. I’m guessing that you would like due process in the case of allegations, true or not, against you. Maybe that isn’t how you operate and you would want only torches and pitchforks.
Second, I guess Bob thinks that “outright mean” and “condescending” were good to stay, according to the commenting policy. I would dare you to find anything that I have said anything close to that here on the blog (speaking of due process). I said something far, far less than that about Bob, and he deleted it. I’ve said nothing of that kind on here, only had it said my way if you are able to read carefully through your anger. But I guess, in your system of justice, people who claim to be victims can speak almost any way that they want, because they are victims, and no one can even challenge what they say at all without that being called “outright mean” and “condescending.”
Third, humiliation would seem to be an ironic course to take for someone who would say he is so against it. It seems just sort of selectively against it, but not really against it. You seem to be an actual advocate for humiliation.
A word on the moderation. Bill prefaced that part of what he said with “I believe that”. You have gotten away with far more than calling someone “mean” and “condescending” in the comments on this blog over the years. That’s his opinion after reading the interchange. I don’t think stating his opinion crosses a line.
Kent,
I know none of the people on this thread….none. I read it in it’s entirety and several people attested to the fact that they were personally abused (both physically & emotionally) and your resonse in summary is:
– I know several people who went there and they loved it
– this should not be made public
– I have met these people and they love god
– CNN is evil
– life is tuff, I was made fun of too
– let’s not rush to judgement
– hearsay, hearsay, hearsay
– you’re hurting the cause of Christ
You are on record defending these people. If or when they are brought to justice you can be a character witness at their trial.
Bill,
Your comment is almost entirely false, including your last two statements, but that is about par here.
I want to go on the record as saying, that I don’t think Pastor Brandenburg or Malinak were being mean or condescending, I haven’t had any interaction with Pastor Malinak as of yet, but my interactions with Pastor Brandenburg have been civil and respectful. While he and I may not see eye to eye on everything, I don’t think he is denying any wrong doing has taken place at Fairhaven over the years. In his defense, most of these stories seem incredible and unbelievable if just taken at face value, especially to one who never grew up there. Sometimes when I replay scenes from growing up there, in my memory, I find them quite incredible too. I do not blame anyone for their reactions on this blog on either side of the issues. The bottom line is there needs to be reform, and we may disagree to the extent of the reform needed, but to sit back and say that the IFB movement of today is of one voice and in accordance with scripture even on the basic level would be silly. You have evangelists soliciting sex from a teenager and her mother. You have Pastors molesting their teens and teens molesting younger kids. You have hundreds and even thousands of families being torn apart with no thought or concern to their reconciliation. I am not being pious when I say this breaks my heart…and I think it breaks the very heart of God. I still struggle with the decision that I made to go public with the CNN story…not my motives mind you, but the end result… Yet every day I am approached with new stories, some yet to be proven, but I ask this of you…Who is really hurting the cause of Christ in the community of NW Indiana? I recently was asked by a local radio station host…What do you hope to gain from all of this…my simple reply was ““Here’s to hoping the church wakes up and realizes that their own children they are sending to hell are just as precious in the eyes of God as the hundreds they bus in every Sunday,†hate me for my words, but the message is one of love not hate….
Kent,
Here are your words, mine were a “summary interpretation” of what you said. Almost entirely false?
– I know several people who went there and they loved it “None of our 5 graduates were abused, nor the one spouse who also graduated from there.”
– this should not be made public “Most of us would not want our worst moments to play themselves out in front of national television.”
– I have met these people and they love god “Our original relationship with Fairhaven came because they taught doctrinally the closest to what we believed. And things turned out well for our young people there. They came back loving the Lord. It helped them. They still testify that to this day.”
– CNN is evil “That would the agenda of CNN.”
– life is tuff, I was made fun of too. “The other coaches ordered those players to pound me into the ground, and they often did. If I didn’t play, I would have been considered unmanly. What was I to do? I took piano lessons and I had people call me Liberace.”
– let’s not rush to judgement “Nothing got swept under the rug.”
– hearsay, hearsay, hearsay “I know zero first hand information. Everything is second hand, i.e., hearsay. Non-admissible.”
– you’re hurting the cause of Christ “If you think that you are trying to help the cause of Christ by going to CNN, you are very sadly mistaken.’
Bill,
You did better by putting the quotes down.
“None of our 5 graduates were abused, nor the one spouse who also graduated from there.‗This doesn’t say they loved it. Not abused is different than “loved,” so false.
“Most of us would not want our worst moments to play themselves out in front of national television.‗I would say bad things should be made public in the proper way, but not on national television, so again, “false.”
“Our original relationship with Fairhaven came because they taught doctrinally the closest to what we believed. And things turned out well for our young people there. They came back loving the Lord. It helped them. They still testify that to this day.‗Nothing about “these people love the Lord” here, so again false.
“That would the agenda of CNN.‗I can live with CNN is evil in tune with their agenda.
“The other coaches ordered those players to pound me into the ground, and they often did. If I didn’t play, I would have been considered unmanly. What was I to do? I took piano lessons and I had people call me Liberace.‗True here too; people need to sort through what is legitimate and no legitimate, and be open to consider what is and isn’t.
“Nothing got swept under the rug.‗Yes, Pastor Mallinak did not sweep anything under the rug, so he has a history of dealing with things. False again.
“I know zero first hand information. Everything is second hand, i.e., hearsay. Non-admissible.‗I don’t get the three times hearsay, making it as though everything I said was hearsay. All the abuse is hearsay to you too, which is what it would be if I heard something about you too. The people involved aren’t hearsay, but we are.
“If you think that you are trying to help the cause of Christ by going to CNN, you are very sadly mistaken.’—You say I’m hurting it. I think it’s false because I believe there is a more scriptural way to handle it. I do think that actual crimes ought to be prosecuted. The scriptural violations have a biblical way to handle it and 1 Cor 6 informs us about that.
You said nothing about the ‘on the record’ comments at the end, those are false too.
Bill –
I don’t think Pastor Brandenburg was denying that these things happened. I think his point is that the staff was imitating things they watched in worldly military movies of the time. These methods are not abuse, they are tools to make a person tough – evidenced by football, army, etc.
Also, since you are not a fundamentalist, I’ll help you with something…
Regarding the cause of Christ – it all depends which team you are on. It ‘hurts the cause of Christ’ when you talk about sins of people in ‘my camp’, but you are protecting the flock when you attack people in ‘other camps.’ In fundamentalism, you need to find out what Bible college a person most closely associates with to find out if their actions hurt the cause of the camp, er, I mean Christ.
Members of the Army are adults, not school children. Maybe the staff should have spent more time reading their Bibles and less time watching old war movies …
And I don’t know what kind of churches you all attend, but I do attend an IFB church, and the only thing I know of that “hurts the cause of Christ” is to allow rampant sin go unremarked in the pulpit and staff and cover it up as though it never happened. God doesn’t need our help to further His Son’s cause. He uses us, in fact the weakest among us and if something goes awry due to our own inadequacies, He’ll use that too. He’s pretty awesome like that.
AA,
No one has disputed that children aren’t in the Army. However, it isn’t just Fairhaven, all over, that does militant type of activity, Army-light, to make their boys tough. That was the point of my ilustrating it with my athletic career, which started being like that when I was in jr. high at least. Maybe women don’t like that, but I’m guessing even some of the critics here want to continue to allow some of that to go on. I said that Fairhaven abused it and I said it was because these guys were under the influence of older military types. That doesn’t excuse it, but it would probably help someone to understand what was going on, at least, because people can get that.
I think there is a threat of ungodly child discipline that develops in churches in a major way because of their theology. The theology is the root problem. The question is: how do we change toward Christlikeness? Carnal weaponry doesn’t accomplish that. The means to the end does matter and it actually does relate to the end, as well.
Spanking, on the other hand, is scriptural, so it is a spiritual means of change for children. However, what’s the point of the spanking. It should be to train the conscience of a child, lining him up with the law of God, which in turns is a schoolmaster to bring him to Christ. It is the law itself that points out the sin or unrighteousness that moves toward faith (Rom 10:4). However, if the spanking is only to conform outward behavior, it might do that for awhile, but it won’t succeed. That is often what the problem is. The former is God-centered and the latter is man-centered. By the way, I believe evangelicals also have plenty, just as many, man-centered change kinds of tactics that they excuse that also abuse.
The pastors commenting here don’t want to cover up rampant sin. We don’t have rampant sin in our church. We deal with it according to Matthew 18. I don’t think you should intimate that. And of course, sinning in order to deal with sinning is part of the problem here isn’t. That’s wrong for everyone, isn’t it, that is, to disobey the Bible in your way of dealing with sin? You don’t change people by disobeying the Bible to do it. That kind of pragmatism is often at the root of the problem.
Mr. Brandenburg, Where on earth have I intimated that you have rampant sin in your church? I don’t even know what church you attend/pastor, much less know details about it.
I do know we are all humans, and as such, we are all sinful beings in need of God’s grace, yes, even those of us who are saved and living outwardly good lives (for that matter, inwardly “good” lives).
I’ll also say that we change parenting standards by being more Christlike ourselves. Christ didn’t beat small children into submission. I’m sure you’re well aware of the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, etc. Jesus was kind to children. Adults, perhaps not always, but always, always to children.
Incidentally, not everyone interprets the rod verses as a command to spank their children. Many Jewish rabbis, who spend hours studying the original Hebrew, do not. The rod, or shebet, was used for guiding, writing, and even walking more often than it was used for hitting. My ethnic heritage is Jewish, so I actually do know something about this.
Now, whether parents choose to spank their children or not is their business entirely. As long as they are not actively abusing their children, it’s not the public’s business. Once a parent crosses the line into abuse, however, it DOES become the public’s business, and like it or not, when a parent entrusts a child into the care of another abusive adult(or adults), they are equally responsible under the law.
Finally, I’m a mother of sons. Three of them. If anyone ever hit my boys the way these boys were hit, they’d be dealing with me and my husband both in a court of law. I don’t have any false ideas of what it takes to be manly. Obscene displays of testosterone do not a man make. Incidentally, my husband? Before anyone makes any assumptions regarding his manliness, he’s a law enforcement officer and a volunteer firefighter. I can’t imagine a more manly or more gentle man.
AA,
What are your thoughts about Hebrews 12:5-11? Since it’s in the NT, it’s Greek not Hebrew. Who do you think “the Lord” is there in v. 5? Consider the connection between vv. 1-2 and v. 5. Where would the idea of chastening a son come from? Is this entering in for the first time in Hebrews 12 or is it drawing on something already established in the Old Testament? Do you think your rabbis believe the New Testament?
Hebrews 12:5-11: Chastening = correction. Because a parent may not spank his child does not mean he does not discipline or correct his child. I’m sure you can think of many, many times you corrected or punished your child without spanking.
As to “your rabbis,” I am Jewish by ethnicity, not religion.
AA,
Heb 12:6 says, “For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.” Whom the Lord loves, He scourges. “Scourges” is the Greek mastigo, which Barclay Neuman, no IFB, say means “to beat with a whip.” Louw-Nida, no IFB, says that it means “to beat with a whip.” Lidell-Scott, no IFB, says that it means to whip, to flog. Thayer, no IFB, says it is “to scourge.” Everyone says it is what we would call “spanking” today. The noun form mastix means to whip, scourge, to lash. So the paradigm here is child correction done by the loving Father. That paradigm doesn’t work at all if you don’t already have the reality of the teaching of the loving father using corporal punishment on his son. The Father that uses corporal punishment loves his son and the one who doesn’t, does not love his son. That is plain reading, not any type of attempting to read in what I want to read into that text.
God is love. God defines love. Only those who abide in God abide in love. And God scourges. Love is what God says it is. The person who leaves mastigo out of the text isn’t more loving. God is love.
Scourge also means severe punishment.
Why do you keep mentioning Independent Fundamental Baptists? Is it something you see as a denigrating term? While I get that many are turning away from the movement, I’m asking you respectfully to not use it as a pejorative with me (just as you tried earlier to do with my supposedly Jewish religion, i.e., “your rabbis”). I’m not ashamed of my beliefs, and I don’t denigrate anyone else’s beliefs. I don’t think that tactic is appropriate here. Debate the facts, or don’t debate at all.
I’ll explain it like this:
Discipline is a picture of grace. We discipline our children in order to correct their behavior.
Punishment is a picture of judgment.
Prov. 3:11, 12 for example.
AA,
Mestigo means “to scourge,” and my allusion to these men not being IFB is not a pejorative, but that none of them were influenced by the IFB in their understanding of the term. No one can claim that it is some IFB interpretation. IFB don’t have some kind of corner on the spanking understanding. It’s what the word means. That’s the point.
I’m not surprised that you can find Jewish rabbis who will say that the passages in Proverbs are a metaphorical rod and not an actual rod. But if it is a metaphorical rod, what is the basis of the picture in Hebrews 12 of an actual father giving a physical discipline to his son with a scourge because he loves him? Without an appearance of a physical rod for spanking in the Old Testament, we would be receiving an assumption in Hebrews 12 that no one should make or an illustration that the author of Hebrews has not basis to draw upon.
I say “your rabbis” because they are anonymous, and that viewpoint is not what all Jewish rabbis say, only the nameless ones that you are referring to. Not every rabbi allegorizes the Proverbs rod passages. In addition, they wouldn’t care about a New Testament passage shedding light on an Old Testament parallel, because they are not converted. That would be ignored.
You’ve been unapologetically denigrating to me and others in this comment section in the harshest possible fashion without their ever saying one thing to you, but you seem to be incredibly sensitive to something that you think hints at something at you. Just an example, you made this broad brush statement, “Sick demented freaks at that school. All of them.” Your words.
As to the final comment, I sure did say it, and I apologize. It was wrong of me. I was angry and upset, which of course doesn’t justify saying what I did.
I’m lost as to the other comments to which you’re referring, however. I’ve not been hostile or aggressive to any commenters here, not you or anyone else.
AA,
Your statement of wrongdoing was a wonderful, beautiful example of Christian grace in a difficult situation, and I both commend you and thank you for it. It speaks very highly of you, in my opinion. Again, thank you. And God bless you.
Everyone else,
And with that statement, to everyone else, I bow out of this blog comment section unless someone else makes another derogatory statement toward or about me. And perhaps I’ll never be back to this blog, except on the rare exception that I think I should.
Everyone. If you feel you need to say more about this post, you can do so on other posts or pages on my site. The burden of moderating this discussion has grown too large and it seems all has been said that can for now. Feel free to use the contacts tab at the top of my page if you need to reach me directly. If more develops on this story and I believe I should inform my readers about it, I will do so. But for now I’m going to go ahead and close the comments on this post.
Thanks for understanding. The comments here will remain untouched so people can read the comments for themselves. But new comments will not be approved.
Thanks,
Bob
Andrew,
Thanks. I think it is possible that people were abused. That lack of certainty may bug people, but it isn’t disbelief that they were, just that I wasn’t there. And I don’t have a fundamentalist camp. I don’t consider myself a fundamentalist. I think everyone is open to criticism. I get it. But Fairhaven is not off limits either. This is of a totally different nature than criticizing something doctrinal or even practical that I know about. It might seem the same, but it isn’t. It was not something I had heard about. And even now, I might believe things, but I’m not going to say they are true in public, because of their nature. I think I’m consistent with this, but I’m happy to know how I am not.
Kent I find it very disingenuous of you to finally start conversing again just to try and disprove Bills entirely correct summary of your statements and position, calling Bill a Vigilante who is against Due Process and make yourself sound like you are neutral.
It is very clear on other blogs that you, Mallinak and Jeffy Voegtlin are some of the closest of friends. You are all three about as close as you can get as Christian brothers by all accounts of how you have written about each other and worked together on other blogs.
This is what we would like you to do. Pick up the phone, and Call Jeffy. Call Damron, get the entire story, then come tell us what parts are lies and what parts are not.
OR
Come back here and tell us that you can no longer say that you are unaware of events that have happened there, MANY of them Criminal, and tell us “I can’t talk about it” or “but I’m not going to say they are true in public, because of their nature.”
Don’t cower behind some claim that due process is not taking place here. We are no jury nor executioner. We are investigators, witnesses and we are gathering up more facts day by day, and this information which is about legal prosecution will be turned over to the police for proper due process.
The other information will be turned over to churches and parents that support fairhaven, send their children to school or college there.
When Mallinak said that Price may deny these things, and not have been prosecuted for them, then told him WE ARE HERE AND WATCHING and declaring to the world what you have done…. When he did that did you come out and call him a vigilante and declare that Price had the right to due process?
Exactly. Due process has nothing to do with this. There is no Mob here, Jeffy and Roger are safe in their homes and will be given due process by the law.
If you mean due process of the Bible, this took place, Roger has been approached about MANY MANY things, and has scoffed, denied them, or covered up the things and only informed certain members of the deacon board while keeping others in the dark.
Price did the same thing.
There is absolutely nothing you have added to this thread except the points that Bill made. Feel free to deny it again, you are building quite the reputation for yourself in here. All anyone has to do is read your whitewash in the first post on this thread, let alone the rest. Quite disgraceful.
I attended fairhaven and I loved the McNeillys and wish I could contact them today – i would not have made it through if not form them – they were my family. I hated some of the things that happened at fairhaven – the way girls were treated – weigh-ins, told that by delong we were not spiritual if we were overweight and no guy would ever date us. I hate looking at my diploma and I am not proud to be from there it is a memory I have tried to forget – if you have attended there and don’t believe any of the reports then you must have been blind.
They told you that you weren’t spiritual if you were overweight? I don’t remember seeing anything about THAT in the Bible. That’s pathetic.
Why did the McNeilly’s leave? I knew him a little, only through a relative who attended college there.
Jake,
I’m sorry if I’m not doing enough for you, not coming out strongly enough to you, but I can only judge what I really know, and I know very little. You want me to do a full scale investigation, since I have been there a handful of times. Jeff, Dave, and I have written a blog together. Dave and I see each other a lot. So I’ve talked to Jeff in person a handful of times and written a blog with him. And even then, he didn’t contribute too much in the way of writing. But we’re actually not as close as anyone can get—I’m far closer to family, to church members, and then even other pastors. Anyone who knows me would even know that, but you don’t have to know me to come out with your false statement. You’ve made several on here about me, and it might help you to be an example to others of how to handle things by at least agreeing with that. When we’ve written the blog together, I didn’t see anything unscriptural to confront. You seem to have in your head plenty of things you want me to know, but I’m still going to deal with them the best way I believe they should. You should be patient with that. Perhaps you want to provoke me to move faster to your satisfaction, but perhaps you can pray, if you are on praying ground, and hope the best, OK? I don’t think the personal destruction of other people will give you peace, however. It never does. It might have a short term gratifying feeling, but it won’t satisfy.
Thanks.
And as far as defending myself, I have a tendency to do that when I think someone is saying something that isn’t true about me. I’m going to guess that you understand that one.
Andrew & Jake.
Thanks for your clarification in regards to pastor Brandenburg. I assumed he would be on the front line for the abused and the helpless…I was wrong.
I wept as I read the stories from those who were abused. But I will not stand by the sidelines. There is either abuse or slander based on what I read. I will go on record as supporting the abused and will say that I love you and am sorry for what happened to you, Jesus is real and he loves you…run to him. Go to the people who will support you and give you help in dealing with being thrown to the curb by your families. I really can’t image the pain you must fell when you are shunned by your families. It really just breaks my heart. If any of my children were mass murders and condemned to death I would hug them and kiss them and tell them I loved them as they were strapped to the electric chair. I really don’t know the pain you must feel.
But know this, I am on your side and willing to give resources in your quest for justice, reconciliation, and healing.
Bill, please add this quote of Kents categorization of the accounts told on here to your summary list of how he sees us all trying to bring some criminals to justice and to stop the multigenerational abuse at Fairhaven:
> I don’t think the personal destruction of other people will give you
> peace, however. It never does. It might have a short term gratifying
> feeling, but it won’t satisfy.
Dave, when I read some of these things you, Mallinak and some others post its just incredible. You keep addressing the victims as the ones doing the crimes.
Instead of telling ************** ME ************* what you said, you should send a note to Jeff, Roger, the Deacon Board at Fairhaven among others that says in regards to the brutal violence they have done over the years:
“I don’t think the personal destruction of other people will give you
peace, however. It never does. It might have a short term gratifying
feeling, but it won’t satisfy.”
You saying that also reminds me of the people crying out to the murderous state officials about to put to death by lethal injection, a criminal convicted of the serial murder of a dozen people. These people telling everyone: “Stop! Murder is Wrong! It might have a short term gratifying
feeling, but it won’t satisfy.”
Dave…
It appears that Jeffy and Damron are the very best friends in the whole world of Mallinak, and you are just along for the ride. Now you can say that Jake Ace was on here telling lies about you and you defended yourself.
Yes, I have directly “pushed” you to do a few things. Not out of the blue, but with you coming in here making fishy statements and claiming to stand for Christ, truth, justice, morality and the purity in the pulpit:
I am calling on You AND Mallinak and all the other sister-type IFB churches of Fairhaven to do a full scale investigation. Especially in the light of what you are actually doing which is whitewash. And since Fairhaven refuses to do their own internal investigations and scoffs at people like McNielly whom confronts them. You guys have weight. Will you help us with this?
If you don’t want to, then again I ask you. Who do we go to? What is the scriptural way to handle criminal activity and internal coverups? I think the same route that Mallinak took with Price. We are going to stalk them until they have to get real jobs.
The other thing that I have asked you to do, is to come right out and say that anyone that does what is alleged to be done by the dozen or so kids that were there as witnesses, the full story, *IF it was done*, that the adults whom directed it should have gone to prison, and are no longer qualified for the ministry.
You don’t want to take action, fine, just answer the above. Yeah, I am putting you in a corner. I am “sniping”. This also goes for Mallinak. It is a simple challenge for you to respond to the above. Why can’t or won’t you answer?
This thread is at 250 posts almost, and in half a dozen I have made this clear what I am asking of you and Mallinak.
If I asked everyone else on this thread the same question, the answer would be immediate, anyone else I know. But for some reason you guys want to take the 5th in giving an answer to the above question of what should be done *IF IT IS TRUE*. Go ahead and answer with a disclaimer saying “I am not saying its true, but if it was…..” We can respect that.
I read this from Kent to Jake: “perhaps you can pray, if you are on praying ground”.
I have no idea what that means…What is “praying ground”? Is it a physical location in fundamentalism?
I know I’m not the prize in the cracker jack box but I thought you should cry to Jesus no matter where you are.
Jesus hears you no matter where you are, no matter who you are. He’s always there, always listening.
Psalm 66:18, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.” You can cry to the Father, who Jesus told us to cry to, but he doesn’t hear you if you regard iniquity in your heart. See other passages like 1 Peter 3:7, for praying ground. Hopefully you can agree with Scripture.
“The pastors commenting here don’t want to cover up rampant sin. We don’t have rampant sin in our church.”
Pastor Brandenburg, your words cease to amaze…they really do. In your theology is it ok to cover up non-rampant sin?
Bill,
I don’t how you are amazed by our not wanting to cover up sin, but I was answering AA, not you. She brought up rampant sin being covered up. I’m saying no one is doing that. There was no implication of, therefore, covering non-rampant sin. We follow Matthew 18, which does mean that you don’t make every sin public. Maybe you would make it all public though. Is that the implication I’m supposed to make through your smart remark?
And I repeat, I know nothing of your church, nor did I make any such statement about you or your church.
Kent,
> I think there is a threat of ungodly child discipline that develops in
> churches in a major way because of their theology. The theology is the
> root problem.
Yeah a theology of cherry picking the Old Testament, instead of sticking to all Laws and Examples of how to do things, they want to pick and choose OR instead of saying we are not under the law but under grace.
Which is it?
> The question is: how do we change toward Christlikeness?
> Carnal weaponry doesn’t accomplish that. The means to the end does
> matter and it actually does relate to the end, as well.
By Fundies admitting that many things in the Old Testament are not prudent, nor are the way that things should be done now.
> Spanking, on the other hand, is scriptural, so it is a spiritual means
> of change for children.
So is stoning gays, burning witches, and in this example, beating the living daylights out of a “fool” with a rod.
How about stoning your son in a group setting for his rebellion? Pretty similar to the gang beating of a tean. NO?
You see… That is what drives the beatings of teens. Old Testament examples of what should be done, and what is ok to be done to rebellious sons. This is why Damron can do it with a clear conscience.
> Spanking, on the other hand, is scriptural, so it is a spiritual means
> of change for children.
So is stoning fornicators. So is raping a girl, being forced to give her father 50 shekels and forcing her to marry the rapist.
These examples are not examples of stuff that happened. These are LAWS.
My point is not to criticize old testament laws. My point is to criticize people who like to take some laws, use them as justifications for things today, and ignore the others. Then you go and bash someone else for exercising certain laws of the Old Testament and ask how we can change their theology.
The day you stop saying:
> Spanking, on the other hand, is scriptural, so it is a spiritual means
> of change for children.
Is the day you can expect them to say:
Beating a kid with a rod or stoning him, on the other hand, is scriptural, so it is a spiritual means of change for children.
Stoning fornicators was a LAW and was meant as a means of change in those with lustful thoughts at the very minimum.
You don’t advocate that do you? No. But then you go and take all the spanking scriptures and stand by those.
This is not an essay against spanking. This is an essay against your hypocrisy to think that the physical abusers at fairhaven who did what they did as part of their system of discipline have ANY LESS BIBLICAL STANDING in what they do, than you do in using the same passages to justify your own spanking.
To finally answer your question on doing things more Christlike. BINGO, that is the answer. We are not under the law, nor the brutality of the Old Testament, nor can we in any way look at how things were in the OT and claim that they are our current moral standard of action.
If you disagree with that, then join hand in hand with the abusers, and make a statement that gays should be stoned, witches to be burned, drunkard sons to be stoned, and adulterers to be killed unless the girl was not engaged, and 50 shekels adjusted for inflation be paid to fathers and a forced marriage take place.
The men are brutes not because they are sick in their heads, they are brutes because they are stuck in the Old Testament, and have scripture to justify their actions. In the same way that you justify spanking as being scriptural based on a couple of cherries out of the Old Testament.
Jake,
You are going over the top in your charge of hypocrisy. Just because some abuse something doesn’t mean it isn’t right. Because some abuse alcohol, many jump to totally prohibit it. That goes for multiple other issues as well. In this case, we do have to grapple with what Scripture says. It doesn’t say we should beat the living daylights out of a minor. I do plan to do a study on these passages in the Old Testament. But it’s not as simple as just saying their Old Testament, so they don’t apply to us. Unfortunately, life is a bit busy so my blogging through the spanking issue is on hold for a while till I get it ready to go.
I think you’re wrong in that specific charge of hypocrisy and like I said, this is the last post I’m allowing from anyone dealing with Brandenburg’s reactions to this. Now we can discuss spanking under this thread, but if it gets out of line, I will have to step in again.
I am most definitely in favor of spanking, and I do spank my children, however, I’ve been in fundamentalist contexts where “whippin’ the kids” was a badge of honor and that mindset is nothing, if not carnal.
Jake,
I am not posting your comment saying fundies secretly want to kill gays. That is not the case in my experience.
The Old Testament needs to be read against the backdrop of its time, read Hammurabi’s law code for extreme punishments. In the era of a Theodicy with God ruling the state, then yes the ideal rule necessitated the stern punishment of sinners including by death for certain grievous sins (to and against God). You could consider such offenses to be equal to treason in a state ruled by God.
Even in that existance, God’s intention was to illustrate how law-keeping and rules do not ward off sin. And if you read the narrative of Scripture, often even the heroes were worthy of death by God’s law but were excused and forgiven. God is a God of grace and love, period. David deserved to die twice over under the legal code of the Pentateuch, but God overlooked his sins.
I don’t think people are defending abuse by quoting the Pentateuch law system. They are applying Proverbs and Hebrews, but we’ll get to that when I have time to get my study on spanking in Scripture together.
No more on this line of thinking. Again it just needlessly provokes people. Again, there are dozens of church groups and affiliations that do advocate careful, wise parenting that includes spanking, but in no way advocate nor promote violence and abuse.
I’m adding one additional comment here from Bill.
______________________
I wanted to post another comment on the Fairhaven post but I see they are closed. I reread a few of my posts to Brandenburg and they were harsh. I felt that he was out of line in not responding to direct questions and his approach minimizing first hand accounts of abuse.
Sometimes in the heat of argument I accuse people when I shouldn’t. I guess he just rubs me the wrong way. However, that should not be an excuse to accuse him. Like I said, I know none of you and have never heard of Fairhaven.
I would just like to tell him I’m sorry for the way I interacted with him as I see a lack of grace in my comments. If you would forward this to him I would be grateful.
[I checked and Bill was fine with me posting this here publicly.]