Category: Baptism

The Baptizoblogodebate!

~ fundyreformed

Justin Taylor named this whole debate. It is officially the “baptizoblogodebate”.

It is a new era for Christian blogging, in my opinion. As Adrian Warnock recently said, “It is surely the first time in living memory that those who I can only think to call the ‘big guns’ have used the blogging medium to have a serious theological debate in front of the rest of us.” We are witnessing a conversation between John Piper, Wayne Grudem, Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, and now Sam Storms. This debate has been charitable and enlightening. And we can thank blogging wizards, Warnock and Taylor for helping to facilitate. With pieces of the debate on Justin Taylor’s blog, Desiring God’s blog, Reformation 21 blog, Church Matters, Adrian Warnock’s blog, and Together 4 the Gospel’s blog–their summary posts have been very helpful.

Now for a quick update. Justin Taylor summarizes the main posts of the debate helpfully here. My post here, links to all my posts on the issue with their links to other posts touching the debate (such as Vern Poythress’ articles on young children & baptism, and summaries of the Reformed paedobaptist position). And now Ligon Duncan has begun a series answering the question raised by Sam Storms: “How can you be ‘together for the Gospel,’ but not together at the Lord’s Table or in church membership?”.

Finally, this debate has brought up the following question: Is Membership in 1 Local Church Biblical? I would love your thoughts on that last question.AddThis Social Bookmark Button

Is Membership in 1 Local Church Biblical?

~ fundyreformed ~ 28 Comments

The baptism discussion is raising many questions. Sam Storms has entered the discussion and emphasized how the very nature of the Lord’s Supper would lead one to include all believers not engaged in gross unrepentant sin in the celebration of the Supper.

I ask how is celebration of the Supper different from membership in the local church? And even more pointedly, is membership in 1 local church biblical?

Where do we get the idea of a specific roll-call style membership? We see believers together in homes and meeting in different locales. We see a great amount of interaction and unity among various churches. Do we ever see separate churches in one geographical area? Do we have a basis for assuming that today’s world of thirty plus evangelical churches in the average Midwestern city (I’m probably underestimating the number, too) is a good thing?

Consider the fact that once believers join a particular church, they often forget about those fellow saints who attend other churches in the same town. And many of those churches have almost no ties with the other evangelical churches in their town. Is this advisable? Is this biblical?

My friend Nathan Pitchford discussed these trends in an article a while back: “Shopping for the Right Church“. He calls for us [see also the comments under that post] all to take some radical steps toward a practical togetherness focused on the Gospel.

Please weigh in with your thoughts? Why do we assume the status quo is both best and biblical?AddThis Social Bookmark Button

Agreement on Baptism

~ fundyreformed ~ 12 Comments

There has been a discussion of late concerning Baptism. Is it something about which professing believers can agree to disagree over and at the same time be fellow members of one church. John Piper says yes, and Wayne Grudem used to agree with him in his Systematic Theology. In the latest edition, Grudem changed his mind and Justin Taylor publicized that on his blog.

I provided links to the discussion in a recent post Baptism & Church Membership. Then Justin Taylor linked to some articles by Vern Poythress about young children and baptism, which I link to (and discuss briefly) in this post: Baptism & Young Children.

Then Mark Dever chimed in. John Piper responded. Justin Taylor provided a helpful summary of the Biblical argumentation for infant baptism [see my summary of that position here]. Ligon Duncan (of the PCA) responded with a simpler summation (focusing on Acts 2:38-39); and Justin Taylor followed up with a Baptist brief response.

Now Justin has posted a list of 17 points on which paedobaptists (of the Presbyterian variety) and Baptists agree. He takes his list from a footnote a new book edited by Thomas Schreiner & Shawn Wright from a chapter written by Mark Dever. The points come from a debate on the issue hosted at Dever’s church between himself (SBC) and David Coffin (PCA). This list is well worth your time and should serve to broaden your understanding of the arguments and the degree of Christian charity you can display to brothers who differ on this issue. Note, Dever agrees to the list even though he would forbid a paedobaptist from joining his church.

Finally, I should point out that Aaron Menikoff of Church Matters (the blog for Mark Dever’s 9 Mark’s Ministries) has posted his second “Historical Reflection on Baptism and Church Membership“. This time he focuses on 19th Century Baptist theologian John Dagg, who affirmed both the universal and local church, but distinguished the two arguing for believer’s baptism as necessary for local church membership. Don’t forget to see Menikoff’s first historical post on John Bunyan & Abraham Booth.

I find this whole debate encouraging as there is such a display of Christian charity even as opposing arguments are laid down. I hope that if any of my readers have followed this exchange they will at least have a greater appreciation for brothers on the opposite side of this issue.AddThis Social Bookmark Button

Some Good Stuff

~ fundyreformed ~ 3 Comments

Since I won’t have time to do any more blogging today, most likely, I thought I’d highlight some great posts.

  • Many of you have probably not been following Kingdom Surge, my new team blog. If you haven’t you’ve missed out on a great series called Firstruits from the Nations. “Ambassador” has been exploring the glimpses of missions we see even in the OT. And the insights have been spiritually enriching and encouraging. You’ll be blessed by thinking through what the Queen of Sheba, the Gibeonites, Jonah, and Malachi have to teach us about Christ, His Church, and His mission.
  • Nathan Pitchford, another friend of mine, posted a follow up to his well received Calvinism topical Scripture reference. This time he has a categorical list on dispensationalism. Not all of my readers will think it is necessarily good, but it is extensive. He doesn’t interact with all the latest evolutions of this system, but he specifically aims for the “revised” dispensationalism of Ryrie, Showers and others (see the discussion here). The Scriptures referenced on this list would be good for people on all sides of the issue to explore. And like most of Nathan’s writings, this list is well crafted.
  • I should also note that the Baptism discussion wages on. This time Mark Dever (of 9 Marks Ministries, and their new blog Church Matters) weighs in. See my recent posts linking to the exchange between John Piper and Wayne Grudem: Baptism & Church Membership, and Baptism & Young Children.
  • UPDATE: Aaron Menikoff also blogging at Church Matters, just posted the first part of a series on this issue entitled: “Historical Reflections on Baptism & Church Membership”. The first post focuses on John Bunyan and his arguments for open membership.

These next two are series of posts I’ve been meaning to point out for some time. Both intersect with fundamentalists head on, and would be worth the time to consider.

  • Josh Gelatt has begun posting a series called Fractured Foundations: Areas in which Baptist Churches Need to Grow. He is focusing on many of the very things which make us Baptists — the things we would likely have a blind spot for. His latest post focuses on congregationalism gone wild, and points out that there is “no recorded vote in the New Testament on any issue save the selection of leaders”.
  • Scot Kay, another ex-hyper fundamentalist, is all the way to part 6 in his series “Inside the Legalist Mindset“. His latest post contains links to the other 5, and stresses the tendency of legalists to define legalism very precisely (small enough to exclude themselves), and sin very broadly (big enough to include any who don’t adhere to there supra-Scriptural standards). His thoughts might be controversial, but no one should doubt that such legalists exist in great numbers. It is possible to be deceived and think legalism applies only to others. I know, because I was a legalist!
  • On the heels of that series, I ran across a sobering post by my friend Nathan Pitchford. It examines the pharisees and has some harsh things to say about those who follow in their ways and actions. I believe his warning is as Scriptural as it is potentially stinging. All of us should pay heed to this article.

Baptism & Young Children

~ fundyreformed ~ 4 Comments

A quick update here. Grudem responded to Piper’s rebuttal of Grudem’s change of his position on baptism and church membership. (That sentence is a mouthful!)

Then Justin Taylor followed that up by highlighting two helpful articles by Vern Poythress. The first one is called “Indifferentism and Rigorism in the Church: With Implications for Baptizing Small Children“, and explores two attitudes to church membership and the nature of faith in little children (ages 2 and up). What Poythress says concerning the church in that paper is worth thinking through irrespective of the baptism position altogether — especially for us fundamentalist types.

The second paper is more overtly connected to paedobaptism (Vern Poythress is paedo), and is entitled “Linking Small Children with Infants in the Theology of Baptizing“. It explores the implications of Jesus’ reception of the little children and the nature of our experiencing Jesus in the company of the saints every time we gather in corporate worship.

Both of the articles by Poythress are well worth your time. He is very humble and brings up some excellent points. What he says can also be taken to heart even without opening membership to those of the opposite baptismal position. I’d be interested to hear any of your thoughts on the articles!