Overstatements & Theological Reductionism: Fundamentalists on Piper & MacArthur

Another “heated” discussion has arisen on Sharper Iron over a perceived inconsistency between John MacArthur’s recent criticism’s of Mark Driscoll and a promotinal video clip for a teen conference held at John’s very own church. Like most SI discussions, there is an abundance of chaff mixed in with the wheat, so to speak. Yet there are valid points of discussion being raised—to the degree that Phil Johnson has jumped into the discussion with only a matchbox rather than a Pyromaniacs blowtorch.

Ah, but there are overstatements too. Many of them jumped off the page. Some made me wince, others made me laugh, most made me shake my head in disbelief. I commented about them on pg. 22 of that thread (which is scheduled to close at noon today), and I thought I would be lazy and copy those comments here. Well, not merely lazy, because these comments discuss a topic I plan to bring up in the future “theological reductionism” [ironically, I heard that term in a recent Mark Driscoll sermon, the first one I’ve heard]. So without further ado, let me paste my comments here below.

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This thread certainly has some worthwhile discussion. But it also has its fair share of overstatements. I want to look at the overstatements which I see stemming from a theological reductionism. That is a fancy sounding term to describe the oversimplifying of things. Fundamentalists at the very least are prone to such a fault.

Biblical separation for Biblical reasons requires Biblical discernment. There really is no “one-size-fits-all” approach. Oh, but such an approach is far easier, and thus far more appealing. Hence, reductionism.

Consider the following overstatements found in this thread, and then we will look at some clearly wrongheaded conclusions which follow such oversimplification.

Re: John Piper

“Piper endorses Driscoll” “Piper endorses ECM”

It has been mentioned before that Piper had Driscoll speak because he wanted a theologically conservative, yet credible witness to the distrubing trend of ECM. The whole conference was in large part a Biblically based response to the Emerging Church Movement. Driscoll was invited to speak because he knew the movement, and because he is very conservative in his theology while still being very missiological in his evangelism and philosophy. In some respects having Driscoll as a speaker was a statement re: ECM that you can be missiologically minded without being loose theologically. Certainly Piper does not unequivocally endores Driscoll. And obviously he does not endorse ECM.

“Piper now uses rap for worship” “Piper…make(s) allowance for rap music as worship”

This is totally wrong! I am a member at Piper’s church and let me emphasize Piper does not “use” rap for worship. I explained this in a comment on another thread, and you can go there (see my first point) to read the explanation. Needless to say this was merely a kind gesture and not a methodolical strategy on Piper’s part.

“[Piper] will not separate from the Baptist General Conference who have endorsed open theism and continuously endorses practices that are contrary to scripture in emphasis”

This makes it seem as if Piper is just glibly along for the denominational ride. That is so not true! Piper has been a leader in trying to purge open theism from the BGC. He has constantly been a prophetic voice to the denomination, and no doubt has influenced many churches within it. He is in the quandry earlier fundamentalists were in. They were standing for truth in their denominations, but at some point eventually saw the need to abandon them. Remaining in the BGC and fighting for the truth is a totally different reality from what is expressed in this sentence.

“He taught at Bethel College when all sorts of “left wing” Evangelical teaching and practice was occurring and felt comfortable with it.”

This also assumes too much. Are you really sure he was “comfortable” with it? Or could he not have been fighting for Bethel College’s preservation?

Re: John MacArthur

“I talked to a pastor who went to a MacArthur meeting in Michigan. Right before MacArthur stood to preach on the holiness of God, an ensemble from his Master’s College publically swayed to the seductive rhythm of their contemporary music.”

Second hand info about a “public swaying” to music! Are we going to Biblically separate from someone based on how so-and-so felt when he heard the MC ensemble perform?

“In an interview with Mark Dever, MacArthur, was asked if he was a ‘Dispensationalist.’ There was hesitation and then he said; ‘well, in the sense that I believe there is a future Kingdom for Israel.’ He was then asked if he was Reformed and without hesitation MacArhtur said ‘Yes!’ What he indicated is that he may not be Dispensationalist but what is called “Historic Premillenial. That plus his view against the two natures in the Christian should make him examine whether he can sign the IFCA statement of faith. Perhaps he should consider dropping his membership in that organization.”

This statement also is reading motives into MacArthur’s “hesitation”. It overstates the case and concludes from this interview that MacArthur is a weak Dispensationalist. (By the way, should fundamentalists be separating over dispensationalism? I for one don’t think so.)

Re: both

“[They] are wrong in their practice of separation. Separation is a Bible doctrine. This means they are off-base doctrinally on separation. Music is a doctrinal issue and their music is wrong.”

Anyone familiar with SI knows that the music issue is a complicated subject. But we can conveniently simplify it into “their music is wrong” and an implied “we should separate from them”. Again, both Piper and MacArthur practice separation. They differ on specific applications of it between themselves and especially with fundamentalists, but they still are separating. Separation is a difficult topic with much “gray matter”, yet we can simply say they are “wrong in their practice of separation”.

These kinds of overstatements and oversimplified conclusions, lead people into making some of the following extreme statements.

“Why don’t you all take the only rational view and stop buying and reading the books and CDs of a man that says one thing and does the other?”

Again, we have been reminded in this thread that we all are prone to saying one thing and doing another. And certainly examples of this could be given for other “approved” authors. Simply ignoring MacArthur and Piper seems to be far less than a Christian approach to this. It is an overreaction based on an oversimplification of the facts involved. Who needs discernment? Just chuck all books by MacArthur or Piper!

This last quote comes from the comment thread on the post that was linked to at the start of this SI thread. On that blog someone simply said:

“MacArthur is a hypocrite who has an electric guitar shaped beam in his own eye.”

I hope everyone here agrees that such a statement is not only overstated, but it is patently unkind. It is a gross exaggeration and misrepresentation of John MacArthur. But it makes life easy. Just paint your opponents the darkest shade of black you can–that’ll make you look white on any account.

Hopefully, we can try to avoid such overstatements and oversimplifications–theological reductionism. I know even as I type this that I can easily become guilty of this myself, in several different directions at once even! May God help us think Biblically and calmly concerning these matters. We need to think hard, but let us think, not avoid thinking.

Preaching Pictures

Having recently pushed for my viewers to buy a movie ticket to see The Nativity Story, I was very intrigued by Kevin Bauder’s recent article on the history of fundamentalism and the movies. This first article is primarily history while part two, apparently, will be Bauder’s own assessment of the morality inherent in going to a movie.

With this discussion on my mind, I stumbled across By Faith magazine, and some recent articles they have on movies and drama.  

The article entitled “We Do Theater Because We Believe” by Charlie Jones drives home the point that drama has the ability to move us. It tells a story, and stories are powerful, especially in a post modern age like our own! Drama often preaches a sermon, so to speak. It can powerfully communicate a message. And if you look around, there are lots of sermons and millions of listeners. But it is not us Christians who are doing the preaching.

In an interview with Christian playwright and actor Tom Key, Key claims that “art always leads the person to slightly or profoundly more than change, whereas the entertainment that is not art will not experientially, existentially affect the recipient.” So while drama can move us, if it isn’t good art, it probably won’t. Which leads us to wonder with Art Within founder Bryan Coley, “In a media-saturated generation, where are we as Christians?”  

I guess these articles (they are all fairly brief) caused me to ponder a few things. First, that the art form of drama and motion pictures is a powerful medium which Christians should redeem, and feel free to experience (with discernment of course). Second, that Christians should be more involved in the production of artful plays and movies. And lastly, such Christian involvement in the production of drama would lead to both a communication of Christian themes to a wider audience, as well as providing a healthy alternative to secularism’s often lustful creations–to “criticize by creating” as Michelangelo and Bryan Coley put it.


∼striving for the unity of the faith for the glory of God∼ Eph. 4:3,13 “¢ Rom. 15:5-7

A Gracious Gospel vs. A Fleshly Façade

The blessed “gospel of grace” declares: “…[God] saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy…” (Tit. 3:5). And again, “…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith…” (Phil. 3:9). So why then do we so often act like the Galatians of whom Paul asked, “Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” (Gal. 3:3)

It is so easy to depend upon our own performance for our standing before God. We struggle to live a life that will please God, and when we momentarily succeed our hope, joy and love are increased. Ah… but when we fail or fall, the hope, joy, and love flee. We hide how bad we are in hopes of being accepted by others, yet we can’t hide from God. So we grit our teeth and try to do better.

We all have experienced this cycle at one time or another, and to varying degrees. What is missing in all of this,  is a focus on Christ and  the Gospel. We are to live constantly aware of Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf. We are to be consumed with the Gospel. Our hope is in the Gospel and in Christ’s victorious death and resurrection. He is our standing with God. He is our only acceptance with God. None of our works, even as a Christian, are good enough to please God. We are utterly dependent on the One who intercedes for us. And praise God He is interceding for us and He will not let us slip out of His hand! Let us live lives centered on the Gospel.

To that end, let me quote a thought provoking post on this subject by DJ Cimino over at Doxoblogy. I couldn’t really quote just an excerpt, it is too good. I encourage you to check it out on their blog too, as there is a really nice picture to go with this over there.

Why do we as Christians think that we are living a good Christian life as long as other Christians are unaware of our sin and shortcomings? Why do we accept a “performance based” Christianity? Why don’t we realize that we still sin and fall short of the glory of God? Why do I feel like a good person of I think I haven’t done anything really bad today, when the Bible says that in my flesh even my good works are as filthy rags in God’s sight? Why don’t we walk in the light and be honest about our mistakes, failures and sin? Why do we want others to think we are someone who is holy and pious, when it is only by the righteousness of Jesus that we are blameless in the eyes of God? Why do we get upset at our fellow believers when they ever so slightly sin against us? Why can’t we see that it’s only by God’s grace that we didn’t do the same thing to them? Why can’t we have a more honest Christianity in America, instead of the fake shell of flesh-produced psuedoholiness?

Why can’t we have a more Gospel-centered/cross-centered Christianity? One that daily looks to the Gospel as a foundation for our lives, the hope of our salvation (past, present & future) and the answer to our sinfulness, and not the shifting sands of self-righteousness that produces a performance based, man-centered Christianity.

Why? [underlined emphasis is italic in original]

Before closing, let me direct you to two previous posts on a performance based “legalism” and Christ centered (vs. moralistic) preaching.

The People Clapped, He Sat Down, and the Fundamentalists Went Wild

UPDATE: For those  who have been following this, I want to provide a brief update. You others, read the original post first and then come up here for more!

I  should point out the comments under Bixby’s post (linked to below) are worth reading. Also, Scott Aniol gives a post differentiating his beliefs  from the philosophical position mentioned in Bixby’s post—it is worth reading to understand Scott’s position more. I stumbled across a good summary post by Rick Pidcock which does a better job of chronicling the debate than I did (there are some good comments by Tom Pryde, Ken Fields, and  Rick in the comment section). And no less than Scott Aniol, pointed my attention to a really good, Christ-honoring take (by Phillip Gons) on all of this (although  Phillip  doesn’t really take sides with respect to the music debate).

Most worth reading, is Ken Fields’ newest post, where he reproduces the thoughts of Christian hip-hop artist named Shai Linne. Shai originally posted his thoughts in the first SI thread on this issue. I read them and appreciated them then, but forgot about them when making this post. Ken got Shai’s permission to repost them here. It is worth a read, as Shai responds in a helpful and gracious way. Shai sheds more light on the whole issue of Christian rap in his comments in the discussion under Ken’s post. Definitely, well worth the read—so thanks again Ken! (Sorry, I’m too strapped to fork out a shirt!)

Ryan Debarr gives some further thoughts about this whole controversy—his post is definitely not a “cookie cutter” argument defending CCM. He makes some good observations and expresses some proper concern over the flippant use of terms like “blasphemy and apostasy”.

Finally, Bixby chimes in again (we are still waiting for his “alternative” springing from the post linked to of his below) stressing a need to remember a Gospel Centered approach to worship. Worship is not primarily us giving back to God, but rather us experiencing the benefits of Christ’s vicarious humanity (and his death). Bixby helpfully points us to Parts One and Two of Dan Cruver’s Gospel-Centered Worship series. Do go check those posts out!


Ken Fields will have to forgive me for using a line from his  recent post  for my title. There has been quite the blog storm recently, and those words were the best description I have found.Last Sunday, my church had Curtis Allen (a Christian rapper aka “Voice”) come to perform for our Aeropagus—a culture club of sorts—after the Saturday evening service at our downtown site. Since Curtis was present for the worship service, Pastor John Piper invited him to sing for the service, and he sang one song as a special number—a testimonial song that was quite tame as far as rap songs go. Well, as Ken said, “the people clapped, he sat down…and the fundamentalists went wild!”

Justin Taylor posted a video-clip  of that service, and Sharper Iron linked to it. One of the most heated (non KJV only) discussions  in SI’s history followed (it grew to over 30 pages in near record time). Other fundamentalist blogs joined the many SI posters in a loud disgust over Piper and any fundamentalists which would condone the use of rap music in worship (see here and here). More discussions were held on SI (here and  here), and an incredibly harsh post  was given by Scott Aniol.  Other fundamentalist bloggers joined SI posters in expressing surprise at the mean attitude apparent in some who were so vocal in their bashing of rap or CCM type music, see here and here and here. There was even an apology and a retraction. Lastly,  Bob Bixby offered a really good analogy regarding the  future “movement”  of some fundamentalists which stresses a “high view” of music. I really recommend reading his post, even if you skip all the other links above. [Note my listing of these links is not necessarily in chronological order–they all were from 10/31 through 11/2, however.]

I linked to all  of these discussions  on purpose. Some of my readers  may not be privy to all the “young fundamentalist”  blogs out there (and I am sure I missed some posts, too) and may have missed this whole discussion. But beyond that, I think this whole discussion is instructive. It reveals the sometimes shameful attitudes of some fundamentalists—I particularly was shocked by the willingness for many to just write off Piper completely because of this “wrong” decision. It also shows how so many refuse to let music be a matter of personal conviction. They prefer to make judgments on those who do not agree with their position, or worse to mandate a certain musical style—all this and yet no Scripture directly bears on musical style. Yes, we can apply Scriptural principles and we should, but such application is not equivalent to a direct command. Our interpretation and application of them is important for us but is not universally binding. And lastly, this discussion informs us concerning the musical debate. There were interesting arguments on both sides, and they may prove enlightening to some of my readers.

I would like to shift the discussion now  from the  recent  brouhaha to the music debate. And I would like to make three points. [Just in case you were interested, you can see my comments in the initial SI thread about this whole thing here.]

1) The “high” art vs. “low” art (or “pop” art) distinction.

Not everyone who has been involved in the recent music debate makes use of this argument. But many do (see Bixby’s post where he suggests that many who do major on this argument are part of a “movement”). This view posits that classical music styles are “high” art and thus more becoming of the worship of our God, than the crass “low” art styles.

Recently I came across some great articles by Kevin Twit (of Indelible Grace) where he argues that such a distinction is artificial and a relatively recent innovation. Let me provide a few quotes from him, as I think they bear directly on this point.

The dichotomy between high art and pop art is, at best, both unhelpful and musically and historically rather naive. Actually the historical basis of this is a rather racist argument. This distinction is really only about 150 years old, emerges during the 19th century as people try to separate themselves from the massive influx of Eastern European immigrants, and falls prey to a classic logical fallacy: just because something is popular does not mean it is of inferior quality! It may mean that it is of great quality and has connected with a large number of people for really good reasons! In addition, the attempt to make a big distinction between folk art and pop art fails to understand how popular art functions. (see William Romanowski’s recent book Eyes Wide Open pg. 72-75 for a wonderful discussion of this issue! Or if you want to study this even more in depth, track down Lawrence Levine’s “Highbrow, Lowbrow: The Emergence Of Cultural Hierarchy In America”) — from this article (see my recent post for a more legible version).

…the high art/ low art dichotomy….has become such a part of our vocabulary that it seems like a self-evident truth. Low art is said to be inherently inferior to high art. This is the crux of the arguments of people like Allan Bloom and Ken Myers. However there are a number of serious problems with this simplistic reduction.

First of all it is musically naive. As Lawrence Levine points out in an insightful study, most discussions regarding high and low art can’t define where the dividing line is. I would suggest that this is because the line is largely arbitrarily drawn….Music is cultural activity, as William Edgar points out….The attempt to find a universal music that is a-cultural is misguided. Yet this is often what traditional, elitist, Classical musicologists attempt to do….

The second problem with the elitist view is that it constitutes a misuse of language. Levine argues (I believe rightly so) that we shouldn’t use “pop” as an aesthetic judgment, rather we should use it literally to mean that a piece of music has popular appeal. But who says that popular art is necessarily bad art? We must be very careful about automatically equating high art with tradition and intelligence, and low art with the poor, ignorant masses. Levine shows how in the 19th century in America, Shakespeare was pop art! The shift in America took place around the turn of the century and is closely connected with racism and the attempt of one segment of the culture to gain control. William Edgar also picks up on this historical phenomena. The high / low dichotomy in art is not an eternal fact it is a cultural development.

Thirdly, as Edgar points out, this elitist view actually lowers the standards of pop music because pop isn’t taken seriously. Do we send the message that all fields are worthy of our best effort except pop music?….Surely we would be better off to take pop seriously and encourage talented men and women to invest their energy in this field, than to simply dismiss it as unredeemable. —from this article (underline emphasis was italic in original).

2) A Eurocentric Bias.

There is another bias besides the one which  views its music style of choice intrinsically “higher” than others. There is a racist bent toward claiming that eurocentric music is the pinnacle of music form. I was surprised that so many people reacted so strongly against this claim. It is often easy to be blind to our racism, I guess. But seriously, a eurocentric music style is what people are defending, and the music styles they are objecting to stem from non eurocentric cultures. The charge of racism is not really all that painful. It merely points out that one particular culture is being preferred to others, there is a racist bent to this eurocentric bias. I believe it is fairly clear. People who hold to that view might not be meaning to be racist, but their is an inherent racism in the argument that “white” music is always best.

Now Ryan Debarr helped by pointing out  that there is a point to be raised in favor of such cultural bias. He mentioned that the eurocentric culture has arguably been most influenced by the Gospel. However, as even he admits, to argue from this point that any aspect of eurocentric culture (like music for instance) is invariably better than that of non eurocentric cultures is to say too much. And along these lines, in a recent article that I quoted, there is a strong case made that much of the music (not lyrics, but music styles and even poetic structures) used for worship in the eurocentric culture has been borrowed from the pop (and non Christian) culture of that era.

At this point, I would like to reproduce a comment that was made over at Zach Nielsen’s blog in a series of posts he has made critiquing the book Can We Rock the Gospel? by John Blanchard and Dan Lucarini. The comment was placed at the end of this post on chapter 7, and I will reproduce it here below.

At the root of these arguments is an air of ethnocentricity. In other words, there is a core assumption that ones own preference and cultural heritage (i.e. conventional western harmony) is the most evolved form of music. Seldom do the writers of these kinds of books acknowledge that the ancient music forms in the scriptures preceded conventional harmony and tuning. To do so would be to admit that they would hate the music that David danced to.

3) A Matter of Taste.

Finally, I would like to talk about taste. Some speak as if taste does not matter at all—classical style music is just always better and should be singularly used in praise to God. And yet some speak as if music is only a matter of taste. Taste is definitely a factor, but it does not have to be the exclusive factor.  

I was really blessed by a helpful analogy I found made by “Keith” over at NeoFundamentalist. I want to reproduce Keith’s thoughts since they were so helpful to me. They may be worth discussing in more length in the comments here. The following comments  can be  seen in their original context here. They are so good, that I fear I will take away from them unless I reproduce them in full. I hope this will not be breaking blogging etiquette to do so.  

The recent debates between the various types of fundamentalists over music leave me confused.

I think I would be called a musical and cultural elitist by some, but I also see no reason to hyperventilate over John Piper allowing a rap.

But to the bloggers and commenters, it all seems so either/or, why?

How is it not self evident that some music is better, as music, than other music?

Similarly, how is it not self evident that, while we should respect and properly use the best, we are not required to always participate in the best?

Food is just one example. The food at a fine French Restaurant is beyond question better, as food, than the food at McDonald’s. Trying to deny that is to deny meaning and objectivity and absolutes. Even so, does that mean that McDonald’s must be forbidden?

The fundamentalists of various types SEEM (I’m trying to understand here) to think that I must either (A) Say the French food is better and therefore never eat anything else (the elitists) or (B) Say that there is no such thing as “better” there is only preference you like French, I like McDonald’s (the “young” crowd).

Why can’t I say that the French food must be considered better even though I might eat McDonald’s more often and properly so for a variety of reasons?

Hyper Fundamentalism and the Family

A few weeks ago I received the following comment on my blog:

I am not sure what your blog was talking about, but I gather that you understand about the strictness of fundamental Baptist churches.
My son is in one, and I am gathering information about this church. It is independent and the pastor controls everything the members do. I only see my son Thanksgiving and Christmas. Probably not at all now, since I will not attend his church. I was saved in that church and immediately left soon after, when I realized what it was about. I am attending another church. If you can help me, I would appreciate it. —A Reader

I wish the predicament that this dear lady finds herself in were uncommon. But, sadly, this is all too common in hyper fundamentalism. I have encountered several examples to a greater or lesser degree myself, personally. And I am sure my readers have their own sad stories to add here.

Long before I ever made a break from fundamentalism, I felt this was wrong. A certain relative of mine treated his wife’s parents very badly—with great disrespect, I believe. Although at the time they were driving a long distance to go to a fundamental Baptist  church they could agree with, he apparently viewed them as not good enough for him to spend any time with them. The decency of visiting and loving the family God gave him was downplayed and evidently separation and loyalty to his own church and movement emphasized. But hey, isn’t Deut. 5:16 still Bible?

My Dad always warned me to be on the lookout for any emphasis to distrust your family or to not go home over the holidays. And indeed among some students, the implication was that if you stayed over the summer, or if you stayed over the Christmas break that you were a more devoted Christian. Or at least that is the impression one could get (especially if they did not come from one of the churches which strongly supported the college).

I can’t say the church and college I went to explicitly taught us to distrust your family or to separate from them. In fact they emphasized that we go home and be a help to our churches. But in the teaching they gave concerning the family, they made it very clear that your family could be very wrongly influenced by your relatives and you needed to be extremely careful. Generally, I would agree, to an extent. But that advice was often taken to an extreme.

People whose children are still faithful Christians, albeit not fundamentalists (or not as much a fundamentalist as the parents would like), practice a firm separation from them. It is unnatural and ungodly. And yes, I have heard first hand of such goings on. And in this lady’s example above, she is facing such separation from her children.

Can’t strict fundamentalists appreciate that God is at work in their families’ lives—even if they aren’t fundamentalists? Can’t they agree on the big things like love for Christ, mutual faith, salvation, the fundamentals, etc., and then agree to disagree on the minor issues which define them as fundamentalists?

Does anyone else see this as a big problem for hyper fundamentalists (IFBx)? Is the problem wider than just this segment of fundamentalism? Does anyone else think that this trait of IFBx is one which seems very similar to a cultish characteristic?

I am interested in your responses. And lastly, does anyone have any hope to offer this reader? I encourage her to look to Christ and trust Him for support and love. She should also get involved in a good church where she can be ministered to. And then, she should try to love her son and family and try to show them she is a dedicated Christian, albeit not a fundamentalist. Any other thoughts?