Debating Calvinism

Over the years, I’ve hosted some serious debates on many of the issues relating to Fundamentalism. I’ve had debates on various aspects of Calvinism too.

Recently in an old post on my blog, buried where few can see it, have been some comments by Greg and Don wanting to debate me on Calvinism. The insinuation was recently left that I don’t want to debate that topic or that I won’t allow a debate on it. To make such an enterprise simpler, I had asked that Greg read my explanation of the 5 points of Calvinism.

He’s done that, but I keep missing his comments because on very old posts on my blog the comment notifier doesn’t work for me (since I ported those posts over to my blog from my free wordpress.com blog). So I’m going to move that debate to this post.

In the comments, you can expect to see some interchange on that topic, and I’ll copy Greg’s most recent comment over and give my reply. We’ll see where that goes.

Rules for this comment thread are you must 1) read my explanation of the 5 points of Calvinism, and 2) try to stick to the Calvinism debate and 3) debate charitably following the spirit of my commenting policy. If you’re up to the challenge dive in. Know that I’ve been under the weather lately and have some catch up to do at work so I may not be interacting over here as regularly or quickly as I would like. But I will see all the comments and be sure to respond.

Download My Interview on Fundamentalism

I’ve been getting great feedback on my recent interview with Understanding Our Times Radio, and Kevin Thompson. Kevin graduated from Pensacola Christian College in 2002 and so he is also intimately familiar with some of the more extreme elements of fundamentalism.

The interview covered a wide range of topics relating to fundamentalism, including the following: What is fundamentalism? What is good about fundamentalism? What about separation? Wrong views of the Gospel and salvation. Why Reformed Theology is attracting many young fundamentalists. Why people are leaving fundamentalism, and more.

I believe I covered a lot of ground in that 30 minute interview and it would serve as an excellent introduction to my blog and the problem of extreme fundamentalism. I’m thankful for the opportunity to speak about this subject that is close to my heart.

Right-click on the down arrow to the right and select “save target as” or “save link as”, to download the mp3 file. Or listen online at Kevin’s radio site. Also, consider tuning in to Understanding Our Radio on a weekly basis for more interesting content.

Details on Another Radio Interview this Saturday

I wanted to spread the word about another radio interview that I’ll be doing this Saturday. Kevin Thompson of Understanding Our Times Radio, an internet talk show will be interviewing me. It will be another live call-in show, so I’m inviting all my readers to jam Kevin’s phone-lines with comments and questions for me. Details on the interview are below, adapted from the Understanding Our Times announcement.

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Why is it that so many are leaving fundamentalist churches and embracing reformed theology? As the young, restless and reformed movement grows, hard-line fundamental Baptist churches seem to be in decline. Is this the end of fundamentalism? What is it about reformed theology that has attracted so many? We will ask these questions and more to Bob Hayton. Bob operates and contributes to several popular blogs including Fundamentally Reformed and Re:Fundamentals.org. This is a live program and your phone calls are encouraged.

Broadcast — Understanding Our Times

Website – http://www.blogtalkradio.com/understandingourtimes

Time — Saturday, June 5, at 6:00 pm EST/5:00pm CST

Length — 30 Minutes

Call-in Number – (347) 945-7171

You can join us live Saturday evening at 6:00 pm EST / 5:00 pm CST, or download the broadcast in mp3 format at a time more convenient for you.

“Understanding Our Times” is an interactive, live Internet talk-radio show that focuses on current events from a distinctly Biblical worldview. Host Kevin Thompson offers listeners timely discussion of meaningful issues with a variety of different guests each week. Callers are encouraged to call (347) 945-7171 to listen or ask questions. The stream and archives are available at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/understandingourtimes. The show is live every Saturday evening at 6:00 p.m. Eastern/ 3:00 p.m. PT. The show is hosted on BlogTalkRadio.com.

Because of Grace,

Kevin Thompson,
Rom 1:15

A New Dynamic for Reforming Fundamentalists

Change is underfoot at the group blog of reforming fundamentalists that I contribute to. Fundamentally Changed (subtitled Fundamentalists Who Are Fundamentally Changed, Yet Fundamentally The Same) will be moving to a new website: re-fundamentals.com soon, and we’re changing the name to Re: Fundamentals.

Rather than just focusing on the errors of fundamentalism today, we want to reform, revitalize and renew an emphasis on the original fundamentals. We’re hoping for a Fundamentalism 2.0 you could say.

The new blog will focus more on a positive stance for the fundamentals of the faith, and will flesh out how that impacts the church today. We hope to tackle some contemporary issues and offer a blueprint of sorts for how the church can move forward, taking the best of what was fundamentalism with it.

In this vein, we’ve been sharing some principles that form a new dynamic for where we want the blog and the conversation to shift. Here are the links if you care to check it out.

Books for the Bullied: Recommended Resources Dealing with Grace & Legalism

My post yesterday, on “The Real Meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:22” seemed to touch a nerve. Sharper Iron excerpted this line from my post: “1 Thess. 5:22 Often ‘Used As a Bully Club to Keep People in Line with the Group’s Expectations'”. If that’s all you see, it comes across a bit strongly. But this is the real beef with the misuse of 1 Thess. 5:22. It really is used in such a harsh, unloving and hyper-critical way.

A friend of mine from college posted the following on my Facebook page in response to my post:

Good read! I have been doing some extensive studies on the subject of “living under grace” these past few months. I have sat under many of these “bullies”…it is almost as if they are trying to bully us back under the law. It is interesting…when you read the Scriptures through the eyes of Grace…it sheds a whole new light on everything…

I replied back with some of the books that I’ve read over the years that helped me grapple with Grace vs. Legalism. I thought I’d share some of them here with you today.

I should first stress that the definition or the use of the word “legalism” can be much more incendiary than using the term “bully club”. I don’t want to offend and I don’t conclude that people in most fundamentalist churches are legalists. The tendency to legalism in the manner I am talking about, is a wider problem than just fundamentalism. But let me be careful to define what exactly I’m talking about. I’ve defined legalism in the past, but will try to give a quick explanation here as well.

Legalism is an attitude of the heart that depends on self-efforts to please God. It can apply to sanctification and not only to justification. I used to wonder how people could call fundamentalists “legalists” because none of us were close to a works-based justification. But as I left the movement of fundamentalism (I’m still a historic fundamentalist at heart), I came to grips with a real legalism of my own mind and heart. I really did think I was better than other Christians because of the positions I held or the level of personal sanctification (as evidenced by my external standards) that I maintained. I had to be honest with myself and admit that I used to actually think things like: “Those other people must not be as serious about the Lord or love Him as much as we do, because…”.

This kind of performance-oriented Christianity is legalism. When your relation with God ebbs and flows in direct correlation to how much production you have achieved recently in keeping the do’s and don’ts and in evangelism and service, then you really are legalistic and you don’t understand grace. This doesn’t mean you aren’t saved. It means you are missing out on the true glory of the Gospel of grace.

The following books helped me as I thought through these things, and may be a help to you as well.

The Cross Centered Life: Keeping the Gospel the Main Thing by C.J. Mahaney This book is a real gem. It has been revised and expanded and is now available under the title Living the Cross Centered Life: Keeping the Gospel the Main Thing although you can still find the first edition. This book will help you see how the Gospel intersects with all of life, and it has a chapter devoted to the legalism of which I speak. I highly recommend it. (Click on the picture of the first book, for a post I did on it way back in 2005.)

The Grace and Truth Paradox: Responding with Christlike Balance by Randy Alcorn This book is an easy read and quite helpful. Sometimes we feel that you can either be gracious or stand for truth, but Alcorn shows us that dichotomy is false. Jesus perfectly lived a life balancing an emphasis on Grace and Truth. This book cuts at the heart of legalism. (Click on the book’s cover to read my review with excerpts.)

Extreme Righteousness: Seeing Ourselves in the Pharisees by Tom Hovestol This book studies the Pharisees through new eyes. Instead of seeing how bad they are, or even how bad others are, Hovestol stresses that we are in their shoes. Evangelicals are the closest thing to a conservative religious establishment today, and we would be the target of Christ’s anger too. This book can be biting, but in much of it, Hovestol is sharing his own journey. It’s refreshing to be honest and to really see yourself through different eyes. (Click the book’s cover for the Amazon listing for this book.)

40 Loaves: Breaking Bread with Our Father Each Day by C.D. Baker is a book I reviewed recently. It is a devotional book with 40 small readings. It is packed full of grace from cover to cover. The author told me he shares a similar legalistic past and wanted to stress grace. You will be blessed by this book. (Click on the book’s cover to read my review.)