Category: The Church

Christ’s church, posts relating to church and church issues

Be Careful about Bearing False Witness: John Piper, Rick Warren and Over-the-top Reactions

~ Bob Hayton ~ 20 Comments

John Piper’s ministry, Desiring God, will be holding a regional conference at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California April 29-30. Pastor Piper will also be speaking, apparently, at Saddleback Church on Sunday May 1.

Now, Rick Warren’s ministry raises some question marks for sure. Should the church be focusing on poverty and world peace so closely as an extension of ministry? Do some of Warren’s teaching methods and outreach efforts really cater to the “felt-needs” of the unchurched too much, to the point where the gospel is obscured? Does having the Jonas Brothers performing in concert reveal a total lack of discernment?

I’m not sure I have all the answers here about Rick Warren, but I haven’t talked with him either. What bothers me, is that many people are quick to point to John Piper’s speaking at Saddleback, and Rick Warren’s speaking at the Desiring God Conference in Minneapolis last Fall, and conclude that John Piper has sold out on the Gospel, and has compromised the faith.

I recently came across remarks by Ingrid Schlueter, a well-known watch-blogger:

Despite the countless and detailed warnings that have gone out over the last decade about Rick Warren and his distortion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, John Piper prepares to deliver his followers to the platform at Saddleback Church in an act of ultimate spiritual betrayal on April 29 and 30, 2011.

John Piper, perhaps more than anyone else who has been seduced by Dr. Warren through the years, is without excuse. Could there be a teacher more aware of what the Gospel actually is according to Scripture? Someone with a more thorough knowledge of the whole Counsel of God? Someone with more access to the best commentaries, the best theological instruction, the most devout and rigorous Bible teaching colleagues in the land? Yet he falls, and with him, takes innumerable sheep who will trust him to their own destruction.

“Ultimate spiritual betrayal,” really??? Piper is taking us to our “own destruction”??

In a Facebook conversation recently, someone mentioned that Warren taught a works-based righteousness. Another said Piper speaking at Saddleback would be “counter-productive to the gospel effort”. I respect the people who said these things, but I think they are swept up in a frenzy of mis-information, and well-intentioned paranoia.

Rick Warren is not a false teacher or a denier of the Gospel. He may muddy the waters signficantly, but he isn’t a devil or antichrist. He is just the latest incarnation of American revivalism meets pragmatism. His message is not strange. It might not be as clear doctrinally as some would like (although we don’t get to see all the doctrinal teaching that goes on at Saddleback, up close and personal). His preaching may not always be verse-by-verse exposition. But He does revere the Bible and preach a plain Gospel.

It is hard to judge people solely on one-liners given in front of a hostile interviewer. I’m sure Warren’s failed sometimes in articulating the gospel message clearly. In this interview at Fox News, however, I think he did a good job in presenting that Jesus is the only way, and that salvation is a gift — while still not coming off as being extremely judgmental and mean-spirited. But we don’t have to go by just his public media appearances. Here is a 13 minute video where he presents the Gospel, answering the question “What does it mean to begin a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?” Now his gospel presentation there differs little from many given around the country every Sunday. It’s not as clearly Reformed as some would prefer, and it emphasizes a “sinner’s prayer”. But it is still clearly a grace-based, Biblical, Gospel presentation.

I’ve read some of Warren’s reflections about his incredibly popular book, The Purpose Driven Life, where he admits to being Calvinistic in his doctrine, even. I watched his message delivered to the Desiring God National Conference last Fall. I thought it was full of helpful information and really opened up a side of Rick Warren I hadn’t hear much of before. I heard John Piper’s explanations about why he invited Rick Warren: here and here. I’ve also posted about the controversy at length before. (And I’m not the only one who thinks the reactions against Piper and Warren are seriously over-the-top.)

But for my part, Piper speaking at Saddleback, and having a DG Conference at Rick Warren’s church is far less a problem than having Warren come speak at his conference. The Conference is going to be John Piper speaking in three sessions about the essence of “Desiring God”. It will be a standard Piper conference focusing on the 25th anniversary of Piper’s hugely influential (and thoroughly Biblical) book, Desiring God. I am thrilled that many of the people at Saddleback may get to hear that teaching and be shaped by Piper’s emphasis on God’s glory. And then, Piper speaks at Saddleback, and he can give his message and say what’s on his heart. I’ve heard many a well-known Baptist fundamentalist even claim they’d preach at the Vatican if given the chance to preach the gospel. Why should Piper preaching at Saddleback’s pulpit be necessarily a compromise of the Gospel?

This post is a bit of a vent, I’m sorry. It might not flow all that well. I’m just saddened to see so many derail Rick Warren as being an “antichrist”. I literally read someone wish that Piper had called Warren out as exactly that, an “antichrist”. Or just as sad, consider how a commenter at Justin Taylor’s blog described Rick Warren: a “Gospel-betraying, Bible-hating evildoer”! This kind of reaction is over-the-top, and I believe it also “bears false witness” in direct violation of the 9th commandment. The kind of ill-will and judgmentalism displayed toward Piper and Warren is as detrimental to the Gospel and more so, than some of Warren’s public statements which are less than clear about the Gospel.

St. Patrick the Missionary: Excerpts from Patrick’s “Letter to the Soldiers of Coroticus”

~ Bob Hayton ~ 2 Comments

The following excerpts are taken from St. Patrick’s “The Letter to the Soldiers of Coroticus”, one of only two documents that were certainly written by St. Patrick himself and preserved for future generations by careful copyists. The letter tells of a brutal act done by Coroticus and his men– the murder and capture of several newly baptized converts of Patrick’s. I cannot reproduce the entire letter, but you can find it here. The translation I’m using is that found in The Wisdom of St. Patrick: Inspirations from the Patron Saint of Ireland by Greg Tobin (Ballantine Books: New York, 1999).

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1. I, Patrick, a sinner and poorly learned, as is well known, speak to you as the true and anointed bishop in Ireland. I believe with certainty that all that I am I have received from God; and so I live among barbarians and foreigners, a stranger and an exile for the love of the Father— and He is my witness that this is so. I would never, of my own will, speak so harshly and sternly as I feel I must, but I am compelled to by the zeal of God and the truth of Christ, and for the love for my friends [neighbors] and children [sons], for whom I have given up my homeland and my family, and even risked my very life unto the point of death. Though I am despised by some, I have dedicated my life– if I am worthy– to my God to teach these heathen tribes.

2. I have written these words myself and sent them to be given, delivered, and handed to the soldiers of Coroticus. I do not call them my own people nor fellow citizens of the holy Romans, but because of their evil deeds [I call them] the cohorts of demons…. I denounce them as bloodthirsty men who seek to gorge themselves on the blood of innocent Christians, whom I have “given birth to” [begotten] in countless numbers for God and confirmed in Christ.

4. Therefore, I do not know for whom I should more rightly grieve. Should I weep for those who were killed or captured, or for those whom the devil has enslaved?…

5. So let every God-fearing person know that those who murder their own families, who kill their brothers like ravening wolves, who devour the people of the Lord as they would eat bread–they are forever estranged from me and from my God, whose missionary I am. As is said, “The wicked have destroyed Your law, O Lord,” the law that He has of late– and at the end of time– graciously sown so successfully in Ireland to become firmly established there with God’s grace.

7. Therefore I earnestly beseech those of you who are holy and humble of heart that it is not correct to seek favor from such as their kind, or even to eat or drink with them, nor should alms be accepted from them until they have done the most severe penance, pouring out their tears to God’s satisfaction, and until they have freed the baptized servants and handmaidens of Christ on whose behalf He died and was crucified.

9. …We know that a murderer cannot stand with Christ. And he who hates his brother will be called a murderer, and “He who hates his brother lives in death.” More offensive is he who stains his hands with the blood of those children of God whom He has recently won over to His ways through my own paltry efforts here at the utmost ends of the earth.

10. Could I have come here, to Ireland, without the guidance of God, or for reasons that were human and secular? Who compelled me on this mission? It is because of the Holy Spirit that I am bound to remain forever separated from my family. Does this forgiveness that I have shown to the very people who once enslaved me and pillaged the male and female servants of my father’s household come from within me? In the eyes of the secular world, I am a free man, the son of a Roman decurion. But I have traded my noble birthright, without shame or second thought, for the advantage [benefit] of others. In a word, I am Christ’s slave; I serve Him by ministering to foreign tribes for the sake of the indescribable glory of eternal life that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

11. …I do not seek anything for myself. It was not by my own grace, but God who put within me this sincere care in my heart, that I should be one of His hunters and fishers of souls, whom God had long ago foretold would come in the end of days.

12. I am the target of resentment and jealousy. What shall I do, O Lord? I am openly despised. Look, all around me Your sheep lie torn and spoiled, and by these very soldiers of Coroticus at his evil orders. Far removed from the love of God is anyone who betrays my newly won Christian into the hands of the Scots and Picts. Voracious wolves have eaten the Lord’s flock, just when it was increasing in Ireland with tender care…. So do not be pleased with this calamity; it is unacceptable, unjust, and irredeemable all the way to hell.

13. So who among the holy saints would not shudder to make merry or partake of a feast with men such as these? They have filled their houses with the stolen property of dead Christians; they live only to plunder….

15. I do not know what more I should say or how I can speak of those dead children of God who were ruthlessly struck down by the sword….

16. For this reason I cry aloud in sadness and grief: O most beautiful and beloved brothers and sons whom I confirmed in Christ, and whom I cannot number, what shall I do for you now? I am unworthy to help either God or man. The injustice of wicked men has overcome us….

17. Consequently, I grieve for you. Indeed, I deeply mourn for you, my dearly beloved ones. Yet, I also rejoice within myself. For I see that I have not labored without result, and my journey [exile] to an alien land was not without purpose. And though this was an unspeakably horrible crime, I thank God that you were baptized believers when you left this world for paradise. I can see you in a vision: you have embarked upon your journey to a place where there is no more night, no sorrow, and no death. Freed from your chains, you will romp like young lambs and the wicked will be like ashes beneath your feet.

18. You will reign with the apostles and the prophets and the martyrs. You will win eternal kingdoms, just as He Himself promised: “They shall come from the east and west, and they shall sit with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.” While “outside [heaven] lie the dogs, the evildoers, and the murderers.” And “liars and blasphemers shall be damned to the lake of eternal fire.” The apostle rightly says: “When the just man shall barely be saved, where will the sinner and the ungodly lawbreaker expect to find himself?”

20. I witness before God and His angels that, though I lack learning, all shall be as I have predicted. For these words that I have written in Latin are not mine; they are from God and His apostles and prophets, who have never lied. “Whoever believes will be saved; whoever does not believe will be damned.” Thus God has spoken.

21. My first and sincerest request is that the servants of God who shall come into possession of this letter, do not conceal or withdraw it, but be sure that it is read aloud in public, and even when Coroticus himself is there. I pray that God will inspire the hearers to come to their senses and, even at this late stage, that they should repent of the evil they have committed– the murder of the Lord’s brothers– and that they should release the baptized women whom they have taken prisoner and sold. In this way they may yet deserve to live in the grace of God, and they may be restored whole, here and for all eternity. Peace be to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. Amen. [bold emphasis is mine, words in brackets are part of the translation]

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Patrick lived from around A.D. 390 to 460. It’s refreshing to see how Bible-rooted so much of Patrick’s thinking was– we are not all that removed from his theology and passion. I was struck by his connection of “hunters and fishers of souls” with Old Testament prophecy, something my study has only recently revealed to me. Patrick also considered his mission field the “utmost ends of the earth”. He viewed his ministry as fully within the “end times”, too.

From the above selection, it should be obvious that Patrick viewed himself as a missionary. He was on a mission to save the lost souls of Ireland. God blessed His efforts, we can fairly say. Above all, this selection reveals the heart of Patrick. He is broken over injustice and sin. Yet the horrors of hell motivated him to warn all not to be complicit with Coroticus’ evil deeds.

Patirck was a man on a mission– a missionary. And he was equally enthralled with “the indescribable glory of eternal life that is in Christ Jesus our Lord”. We do well to ponder St. Patrick on this, his special day.

Revisiting Baptism and Young Children

~ Bob Hayton ~ 28 Comments

I’ve considered this question before. As Baptists, when should we baptize our children? A few blog posts recently give reasons why we should or should not delay baptism until our children are more mature (apx. ages 10-12).

First, Trevin Wax gave 4 points on his position relating to this question (which is that we should delay baptizing children until they are around 10 years old or so).

John Starke at The Gospel Coalition Blog then gave 4 reasons why we should baptize small children.

On the heels of these posts, Mike Gilbart-Smith at 9 Marks Blog posted his own “9 reasons why we should not baptize young children“.

For my part, I have a hard time getting around the household baptism passages in Acts. Presbyterians point to household baptisms as evidence of the batpism of small children and infants. Baptists demur and say these passages are silent about the age of children, and often give evidence that all the members of the households evidenced faith. Now, however, when it comes to young children old enough to express faith, Baptists are free to let these children wait in some cases years before affirming their faith through baptism? The very same passages in Acts where all members of a household (presumably including children) believe and then are immediately baptized, now have nothing to say about children below the age of 12. It’s one thing to assume the passages don’t refer to infants, now we are supposed to believe they don’t refer to children under 12? Just who should we include as being in the households of the Cornelius, Lydia, the Philippian jailer and others?

As Starke points out, “the Bible doesn’t seem to give us any examples of an un-baptized Christian”. Furthermore, Justin Taylor in linking to Starke’s post above, added this insight:

There is an irony in the discussion””namely, that Jesus tells us to have faith like a child, and we often tell children that they first have to have demonstrate faith like an adult.

All things considered, at the risk of being considered a closet Presbyterian, I tend to think that the symbolism of Baptism is as much about the objective work of Christ for us (washing our hearts clean), as it is about the subjective experience of our testifying to our belief in the gospel (being buried with Christ in baptism). What happens in Baptism is an identifying with Christ and a celebration of what He has done, ultimately, not what we have done. Therefore, it is entirely appropriate for young children who have demonstrated faith in Christ. And since baptism doesn’t save, I am not persuaded by arguments for delaying baptism. I may not agree fully with Vern Poythress’ thoughts about how even 2 and 3 year old children can have saving faith, but I also think he has a point.

I’m interested in what my readers think about this. I understand that some of us find ourselves in churches with an official policy of delaying baptism. I’m not advocating that you disregard your church’s teaching on this subject. Please don’t misunderstand me. But I think a more biblical position is to accept the little children that come to Jesus, and allow them after a period of evaluation, to be baptized.

Fundamentalists & Evangelicals Together? — The Advancing the Church Conference Evaluated

~ Bob Hayton ~ 2 Comments

I haven’t listened to the audio from Calvary Baptist Seminary’s Advancing the Church conference yet, as it wasn’t available until yesterday or so. I started listening to the panel sessions, and plan to listen to most of the messages. I have been reading several reactions to the conference, however, and I wanted to make my readers aware of the conference and the discussion it has generated.

The conference featured fundamentalist leaders Dr. Dave Doran (pastor of Inter-City Baptist Church and president of Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary, both in Allen Park, MI), Dr. Kevin Bauder (president of Central Baptist Theological Seminary in Minneapolis, MN), Dr. Tim Jordan (pastor of of Calvary Baptist Church in Lansdale, PA) and Dr. Sam Harbin (president of Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary in Lansdale, PA). The guest of note, and the keynote speaker, however, was Dr. Mark Dever (pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC and president of 9 Marks Ministries). Mark Dever, is a leader in the Southern Baptist Convention and is not a fundamentalist (in the sense of the fundamentalist movement common in independent Baptist churches). Mark Dever is a leader among the conservative evangelicals, and his ministry focuses on equipping local churches and promoting historic Baptist church polity.

So at ATC, we had Fundamentalists and Evangelicals Together! Well, at least one evangelical, together. I don’t know if the acronym FET will work as well as the one which marks another contemporary Church phenomenon (ECT)**. And furthermore, I am not sure what we have here is any kind of official convergence bringing opposing factions closer to a mutual agreement. But I, for one, am encouraged by the participation of Mark Dever in the ATC conference, and the fellowship that was shared publicly and in private between the fundamentalist leaders mentioned and Mark Dever.

To help understand what happened at ATC, the following news reports will help.

Baptist Bulletin has three articles reporting on the conference:

Brian McCrorie and a few others, contributed several summaries of the panel sessions and individual sessions on the Sharper Iron Event Blog. Click here for all the Event Blog posts, and click here for Brian’s concluding thoughts about his experience at ATC.

Dr. Kevin Bauder gave his reflections, which amounts to a very long blog post detailing his own personal conclusions, presently, about Fundamentalists working together with Evangelicals. For those wondering if Kevin is ready to eject from fundamentalism, this should answer your question with a resounding NO. Personally, I think Kevin Bauder is defining separation to broadly and ready to apply it to quickly — but that’s my general take on most of fundamentalism in general. If you’re interested you can see a bit of an exchange between yours truly and Dr. Bauder in the comments under that long post. I think Dr. Bauder clarifies himself but I still disagree.

Here is the link to where you can freely download the conference audio. Warning the file sizes are quite big.

Let me know if you have any thoughts on this. I’m interested to hear if anyone attended this conference or has listened to some of the audio/followed the blog conversation thus far. Are we looking at an eventual collusion between conservative evangelicals like Mark Dever and fundamentalists? Personally, I think both groups could be improved through such a scenario.

**I should note, that I am not in favor of the goals of Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

“KJB: The Book That Changed the World” directed by Norman Stone

~ Bob Hayton ~ 5 Comments

2011 marks the 400th anniversary of the King James Bible. The King James Bible has shaped the English language, inspired political and religious thought for generations and, arguably, changed the world.

The story behind the King James Bible has been told before. And several new books this year will aim to tell it again. 1A Productions and Lions Gate studio have created a first class documentary featuring John Rhys-Davies which puts this story on screen. And the result is almost as breathtaking as the powerful prose of the King James Bible itself.

KJB: The Book That Changed the World takes us on a historical survey of the years preceding 1611 and the political and religious landscape which confronted the new King. The story follows James I from his birth to his ultimate ascension to the English throne. Particular focus is placed on the role the King James Bible would play in James’ strategy to unify the landscape, politically and religiously.

Director and producer, Norman Stone does a fantastic job of capturing the life of Jacobean England with all of its intrigue. The plot of Guy Fawkes is detailed in memorable fashion. Filmed on location in England and Scotland, the film takes one inside Westminster Abbey and Oxford College to some of the actual rooms where the translators labored over their charge. The photography and quality of the film is superb, countrysides and cathedrals alike are displayed in all their evocative power.

John Rhys-Davies exudes energy and vigor in his lively narration. His booming, deep voice adds to the grandeur of the story. At one point he climbs up into the pulpit of a centuries-old church to read from the pages of the King James Bible.

The documentary focuses almost exclusively on the historical setting and making of the King James Bible, only briefly explaining its lasting impact. While acknowledging the place the Bible has for Christians, the film aims at a wider audience. At times some historical license seems to be taken to make the story fit the producer’s goals. While Puritans and Anglicans worked together on the various translation committees, it should be noted the Puritans were at a decided minority. More detail on translation techniques and practices could have been expected, too. Still the film does not disappoint. It brings to life the world of King James and the creation of his most lasting monument.

This documentary should be available on DVD in the United States next month, and Amazon is already taking pre-orders. If you are in the UK, you can pick up a copy now. Learn more about the film (and watch the trailer) at KJBtheFilm.com.

Disclaimer: This DVD was provided by 1A Productions Ltd. for review. The reviewer was under no obligation to offer a favorable review.

UPDATE: You can purchase the DVD now from Westminster Bookstore, Amazon.com, or Christianbook.com.

~cross posted from my group blog, KJVODebate.Wordpress.com