“Divided: Is Modern Youth Ministry Multiplying or Dividing the Church?” directed by Philip and Chris LeClerc

~ Bob Hayton ~ 12 Comments

A new documentary DVD sponsored by The National Center for Family-Integrated Churches, is beginning to make some waves. Divided: Is Modern Youth Ministry Multiplying or Dividing the Church? explores the pitfalls and problems of how we’ve done church for the last thirty to forty years (and more). You can watch the entire 54 minute DVD online through September. I have the video embedded below, but you may want to click through to watch it full size on Vimeo.com.

I found the DVD thought provoking and definitely worth my time in watching. Age segregation is a new concept in the church, and has only been around in the last hundred years or more. There is a strong argument to be made that it has contributed to many of the problems in the church.

The documentary interviews current youth ministry gurus, youth ministers with misgivings, and former youth ministers. Also included are interviews of church leaders in the Family-Integrated movement such as Douglas Phillips, Scott Brown, and Voddie Baucham, Jr. as well as other leaders less known for their preference for Family-Integrated churches, like R.C. Sproul, Jr., Ken Ham and Paul Washer.

The movie itself flows at a nice pace, tracing the investigation of Philip Leclerc into the problems surrounding youth ministry in the church. The filming is superb and well-planned, interesting shots abound. The setting of the interviews also are visually appealing and the whole movie is a great production. The Leclrerc brothers criss-cross the country interviewing leaders and digging into this problem.

Still, after all the interviews and the questions have been presented, I don’t think the case against modern youth ministry is as fool proof as the documentary claims. At our church, children age 5 and up sit with us in the worship service and that alone contrasts with what many churches do. We have age segregated Sunday School classes, but also foster a unity in spirit throughout the church cross-generationally. More could be done though. And just opening eyes to the questions in this debate can make a big impact.

I recommend you take the time to watch Divided. You may want to pick up a copy of the movie to have it in your library and show it to your church leaders. Learn more about Divided at DividedtheMovie.com. You can purchase a copy of this movie direct from the movie’s website, or through Amazon.com.

If you’ve seen this, or if you take the time to watch it, please join the discussion. Let us know what you think.

Official Divided the Movie (HD Version) from NCFIC on Vimeo.

Q & A: What About the Arguments against CCM?

~ Bob Hayton ~ 103 Comments

From time to time I get asked various questions through my blog contact form. I don’t always have time to respond. Sometimes, the question and my response seem appropriate to share with my wider blog audience. So I’ll begin a feature on my blog addressing reader’s questions. If you have any questions you would like me to consider for this feature, just contact me.

Reader’s Question:

I have read through your posts and the comments on music. I have found it very helpful as I have grown up with the fundamentalist view on music and it is extremely hard to shake. I have broadened my musical tastes, though, and have grown to be blessed by much of “ccm” and find it very God-honoring.

I know you are not an expert on the music debate but you have written much about it on this blog and have changed your own view point from the conservative to less so. Because of that I was wondering if you could answer a question I have. I feel like I can biblically counter much of the arguments thrown at me that condemn CCM. The one thing I have not yet been able to find an answer for is the argument that the beginnings of rock and roll as stated by those artists who wrote it was rebellion and illicit sex. I can say from my own experience that I am not driven to those things when listening. But I would be told that is personal experience and that that is a poor judge of truth. Their argument would be that the music itself is inherently rebellious and sensual as stated by even those who wrote it. I am curious as to if you have faced that and what you answer would be to that. It is hard to find people who I can discuss this with where I am currently so I appreciate your taking the time to read this and answer.

My Answer:

Great question. For starters, it should be said that fundamentalists don’t have a universal approach to music. I’ve experienced fundamentalist churches that utilize CCM music, or close to it, in their services but still preach from the KJB. Many fundamentalist and conservative evangelical churches shy away from using CCM music in public worship, but don’t have as big of a problem with people listening to that music for entertainment or personal edification. But I came from a wing of fundamentalism that was very anti-CCM and that marshaled the very arguments you shared in your question, so I’ll try to share how I would respond.

I should also state that I prefer CCM music for my personal music listening. I don’t like everything I hear equally, but I would rather focus on God in my music than listen to just secular music. Not all Christian music is created equal in its emphasis on a clear, Christ-focused lyrics and a melody and rhythm that complement that. But a lot does. Our church too, uses a blended form of worship where we sing older hymns as well as contemporary songs and choruses. Last week I led the worship at our church and we sang “Nothing but the Blood” and “Holy, Holy, Holy” right alongside “Revelation Song”, and “Worthy is the Lamb“. We also sang
“Before the Throne of God Above“. We had an acoustic guitar, a keyboardist and an electric drum-set. Some songs the drums bowed out completely. (I help serve in a church plant, so we don’t have a permanent home – hence no piano).

Regarding the origins of rock and roll, I think you could say at one time the aura of rock and roll was all about sex. But that has changed over time. Tchaikovsky, along with other composers of classical music, had a horrendous personal story filled with homosexuality and aberrant behavior. Tchaikovsky’s music was described as “vulgar” and “supersensous”. But that stigma hasn’t survived to this day. So the association that rock and roll had with sex is something that can change over time. There was an association with free love and rebellion, too. But today it is just an art form. It’s something that plays at the dentist’s office and grocery store, not just at large, sexually-charged concerts.

Music without lyrical content, lacks the ability to communicate with specificity apart from cultural factors. A minor key means something sad to our culture, but something happy to others. When music is coupled with lyrics, then it has the ability, as a whole, to communicate with a degree of specificity that lets us judge it morally and accept or reject it.

There’s also the testimony you share about how you respond to CCM. It isn’t just an emotional response. There is a biblical principle that if you look at the fruits of something, you can know its character. The fruit in my life and my church of the best of CCM music with it’s God-ward focus, has been positive spiritual growth, not a tendency to carnality and sensuality.

I will also say that a person’s previous associations or personal prejudices will make it hard to adopt the style of CCM music for their own use. It can anyway. But for me, the music of 100+ years ago was just as sentimental and emotionally driven as today’s CCM. But the difference is I don’t respond to that, because it isn’t music of my generation. CCM does communicate and resonate with me powerfully, and has the ability to engage my whole being — emotions and heart and mind — in the power of the song. And that ability is something that CCM is using for good. I still think more emphasis on other emotions beyond praise and joy are needed in CCM music and music in the Church today. We need to bring back lament and Psalm-singing somehow. But I’m thankful for the blessing that CCM has brought to the church, particularly with the modern hymns and content-rich songs.

I’m sure my readers might be able to pipe in here and add their own thoughts. So, please take the time to share your thoughts here for the benefit of the one who asked the question, as well as to contribute to the conversation here for everyone’s benefit.

Elyse Fitzpatrick on Parenting by means of the Gospel or the Law

~ Bob Hayton


I’ve just started into Crossway’s new title Give Them Grace: Dazzling Your Kids with the Love of Jesus by Elyse Fitzpatrick and Jessica Thompson. It is going to take some time to go through it because it is so powerful and packed with quite the punch. It’s at the same time oozing with grace and has the potential to transform our parenting.

So I present here an excerpt from chapter 1, from pages 33 and 36-37. To learn more about the book, check out the book detail page at Crossway.org, read the book’s introduction and all of chapter 1, or watch this 90 minute video from Desiring God.

There is a marked difference between this kind of gracious parenting and the moralistic parenting I did when I was raising my children. I would alternately tell them that they were good when they sat quietly or tell them that they had to close their eyes and pray or be disciplined when they were bad. My parenting had very little to do with the gospel. I assumed my children had regenerate hearts because they had prayed a prayer at some point and because I required religious obedience from them. This resulted in kids who were alternately hypocritical and rebellious. It taught them how to feign prayer, without pressing them to long for the Savior who loved hypocrites and rebels.

Religious obedience is probably the most difficult and dangerous form of obedience simply because it is so easily confused with conformity to God’s law. It’s the place where most Christian families go terribly wrong. Yes, we are commanded to teach the Word, prayer and worship to our children, but their acquiescence to these things won’t save them. Only the righteous life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ saves them….

Yes, give them God’s law. Teach it to them and tell them that God commands obedience. But before you are done, give them grace and explain again the beautiful story of Christ’s perfect keeping of it for them. Jesus Christ was the only one who ever deserved to hear, “You are good,” but he relinquished his right relationship with the law and his Father and suffered as a lawbreaker. This is the message we all need to hear, and it is the only message that will transform hearts.

…Everything that isn’t gospel is law. Let us say it again: everything that isn’t gospel is law. Every way we try to make our kids good that isn’t rooted in the good news of the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ is damnable, crushing, despair-breeding, Pharisee-producing law. We won’t get the results we want from the law. We’ll get either shallow self-righteousness or blazing rebellion or both (frequently from the same kid on the same day!). We’ll get moralistic kids who are cold and hypocritical and who look down on others (and could easily become Mormons), or you’ll get teens who are rebellious and self-indulgent and who can’t wait to get out of the house. We have to remember that in the life of our unregenerate children, the law is given for one reason only: to crush their self-confidence and drive them to Christ.

The law also shows believing children what gospel-engendered gratitude looks like. But one thing is for sure: we aren’t to give our children the law to make them good. It won’t, because it can’t. In our hearts we know that’s true because the law hasn’t made us good, either, has it? [bolded emphasis, mine]

You can purchase a copy of this excellent book at Westminster Bookstore, Monergism Books, Christianbook.com, Amazon.com, or direct from Crossway.

Disclaimer: This book was provided by Crossway Books. I was under no obligation to offer a favorable review.

Book Release: “The Shooting Salvationist” by David R. Stokes

~ Bob Hayton ~ 3 Comments

Today, is the official launch of an exciting new book about Pastor J. Frank Norris of Fort Worth, Texas. David R. Stokes, columnist and a pastor himself, gives us The Shooting Salvationist: J. Frank Norris and the Murder Trial that Captivated America.

I just recently finished reading a pre-release copy of this book, and was captivated by the intricacies of this story. Norris is perhaps the most infamous fundamentalist leader of all, and as the book details, was the focus of perhaps the murder trial of the decade in the 1920s. The entire nation was riveted for months as front-page news detailed the story of a Texas pastor shooting an unarmed man in his office.

The book traces Norris’ career as well as the history of Fort Worth and Texas as a whole in the 1920s. It was the age of newspapers on every corner — and Norris had his own paper with a nation-wide circulation — was just giving way to the radio — and Norris was a radio pioneer too, with an audience reputed to be in the millions. The 1920s saw the Ku Klux Klan as still a powerful force in politics and city life, and Norris was more closely connected with the KKK and its mission than one would guess.

The book is written well, and the story of the trial reads like a novel. The picture painted of J. Frank Norris seems even-handed and true to life, and the author stops short of judging him. It’s a fascinating look into the mind of the legend that J. Frank Norris became.

I don’t want to launch into my full review quite yet. For now, I want to encourage you to check out the book, and consider purchasing a copy today to help it rise in the rankings and become an Amazon bestseller. It’s published by Steer Forth Press and distributed by Random House. I’d encourage you to purchase a copy from Amazon, but you can buy it direct through Random House or Steer Forth Press.

Learn more about the book at TheShootingSalvationist.com or the book’s Facebook page. And enjoy the 8 minute video clip below of author David Stokes discussing his vision for the book.


A Conversation with David R. Stokes from David Stokes on Vimeo.

“Christians Get Depressed Too” by David P. Murray

~ Bob Hayton ~ 3 Comments

Today’s Church has been beset with numerous challenges. Few have been so distressing as the problem of depression. Good people are weighed down with their own depression or perplexed about that of friends and family members. In some sectors of the Church, this is complicated by a stigma associated with depression. Sin ultimately causes depression, it is assumed. And the conclusion follows that good Christians don’t get depressed.

To counter these notions about depression, David P. Murray has written an incredibly helpful book entitled, Christians Get Depressed Too. Murray, Professor of Old Testament and Practical Theology at Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, has encountered depression in ministry and personal contexts enough to be both well versed on the topic and sensitive to the need for sound resources. The book he has written is intentionally short: since “depressed people cannot read hundreds of pages.” (pg. xi). It serves as a resource for caregivers as well as a source of hope for the depressed who consciously decide they want to get better.

Murray explains what depression is and what it signifies. He counters the approach which assumes as a default that behind most bouts of depression lie hidden sin problems. The picture is much more complex than that, he claims. He exposes the faulty thinking patterns which often contribute to depression, and finds examples of such thinking, and even the depression which results, in the lives of people in Scripture. In defense of the physiological nature of much of depression, Murray appeals to Puritans such as Richard Baxter.

On the role of medicine, Murray finds two unhelpful extremes: too much dependence on medicine, and the aversion of any use of it at all. Along these lines, he says:

Treating a depressed person with medication is often no different from giving my eight-year-old daughter one of her many daily injections of insulin for diabetes. I am not merely alleviating symptoms, but addressing the cause–depleted insulin due to dying or dead cells in her pancreas. And if she is lethargic, weepy, or irrational due to low sugar levels, I do not ask her what commandments she has broken or what “issues of meaning and relationship” she has in her life. I pity her, weep for her, and thank God for His gracious provision of medicine for her. (pg. 64-65).

This is not to say, Murray merely refers Christians suffering from depression to their local psychiatrist. Rather, he offers an abundance of help from the Scriptures on how to correct thinking patterns and learn to receive even depression as a gift from God’s very hand. He points to a little remembered passage where Scripture says, “God left” Hezekiah, “that he might know all that was in his heart” (2 Chron. 32:31). Murray elaborates:

This is not an objective leaving, but a subjective leaving. God withdrew Himself from Hezekiah’s spiritual feelings so that he lost his sense of God’s presence, protection, and favor… But God had a wise and loving purpose in this…. Sometimes… [God] may wisely, temporarily, and proportionately withdraw the sense of His favor and presence to remind us of our state without Him and to lead us to greater thankfulness and appreciation for Him. He may do this… by lovingly afflicting our brain, disrupting it’s chemistry and electricity, just as He does when He lovingly afflicts one of His dear children with epilepsy, or any other disease. (pg. 65).

This small book of 120 or so small-sized pages, will prove an immense help to both caregivers and those suffering from depression. It is a primer on depression and in it, Murray offers a careful list of recommended resources, for those looking to continue their study of this topic. The book’s attractive cover, and handy, almost “pocket” size, make it an ideal book to giveaway to friends dealing with this issue. I’ve already loaned or given out copies of this inexpensive book, and plan on using this as a resource for years to come.

You can read purchase a copy of this book from any of these fine retailers: Westminster Bookstore, Christianbook.com, Amazon.com or direct from Reformation Heritage Books.