"Wine to Gladden the Heart of Man": Thoughts on God’s Good Gift of Wine

86 thoughts on “"Wine to Gladden the Heart of Man": Thoughts on God’s Good Gift of Wine”

1. Great post, Bob! I also blog over at SharperIron, and the discussion about the use of alcohol as a beverage is a very touchy one. I hope that Greg Linscott will add your blog to the “Blogwatch” on SharperIron. That’ll be sure to swing some page views onto your blogsite.

   P.S.– we have a similar background, where we both had done time with IFBX-KJVONLY types of churches. Praise God for abounding grace!

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2. Larry,

   Thanks for your kind comments. Actually I did make the Sharper Iron blogwatch not to long ago with regard to Phil Johnson’s critique on fundamentalism part 2.

   Anyway, I have enjoyed Sharper Iron in the past, and am enjoying the discussion forums over there now too.

   I agree this topic is a touchy one. But truth be told, I had no axe to grind with this issue. I had no real compulsions to want to drink alcohol. But for some time a verse here and a verse there would catch my attention. I read the posts linked to at the bottom of this post a few months back and became convinced. Ultimately my cousin-in-law pushed me over the edge.

   But the real motivation to actually drink was to not despise God’s gift of wine. Seriously, I still have not purchased any liquor (it is expensive). But someone gave me some, and I have had a few drinks now. Nothing at all like being drunk, but I did experience “gladdening of heart”. In the future, I would like to enjoy wine. But right now, I am not so sure the budget can allow it. 🙂

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3. Bob Hayton,
   How sad it is to see that you went this far with things. I have been reading P. Brandenburg’s blogs and came across yours. All I can do is continue to pray.

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4. Michael McNeilly,

   I am glad you took the time to interact. You should know I maintain the highest respect for your father–he had a tremendous impact on me. He taught me to be earnest in my pursuit and stand for truth. As I mention in my story, I believe I applied that lesson and have followed God’s direction for this stage of my life.

   I have no burning passion to convert you away from the circles of fundamentalism you enjoy. Yet I stand for truth. I assume you do as well. I encourage you to let the Bible truly be your sole authority for faith and practice. Follow truth more than you follow men and be willing to do what is hard for the sake of pleasing God.

   I have not “arrived”, or anything. And I do not count myself to be the fountain of all knowledge. But as I have stated in my letter, coming to the positions I have now embraced was not easy–and it was not something I secretly plotted to do. I have lost friends and even alienated some of our family members in my desire to hold to the Bible according to my conscience.

   One thing I have found, however, is that many of the people I once frowned upon from the other side of my strict fence are in fact humble sincere followers of the Bible and lovers of Jesus Christ. I believe my attitude toward them even more than my separation from them was wrong.

   You say it is sad that I have come so low. I hope those words were spoken out of a broken heart that loves Christ and sincerely aches over those who have fallen. I fear that it would be too easy for someone to say those same words with a somewhat of a self-righteous snicker under their breath. I hope it does not lift you up to see me so low. If it does not lift you up, pray that you will always differ with brothers in Christ charitably and be thankful for the grace given you to remain in what you believe to be true.

   I recognize that I am all too prone to such an attitude as well. I strive to depend on Christ’s power to live peaceably with all men.

   The points of view I express on this blog are my own. And posts like this one are not made without thought. Seriously, I had no real desire to drink alcohol or break another of my fundamentalist taboos. For a time, I was convinced of the Scriptural case for drinking and yet was too timid to do it. I only knew that others might have that much lower of an opinion of me. But far better to risk that then to impugn the wisdom of God who gave us wine freely to enjoy!

   I would be happy to open up a dialogue with you here or in email, if you prefer. I do my best to remain open to other points of view (even those I once held). I follow P. Brandenburg’s blog also. Many of his posts are thought provoking and some I agree with completely. I do not comment there as I feel I would not be welcome. If you hear anything that seems damaging in regard to my character from him, feel free to include me in the conversation too! I would like to present my point of view–just to be fair.

   But my reputation is not all that valuable and worth protecting, really. I choose to identify with Christ where He leads me, come what may.

   Whatever you think of me, and whether you ever write me again or no, I would encourage you to make the Main thing the main thing for you. Keep centered on the cross and on the Gospel of Christ Jesus. Focus your attention on Him, and seek to honor Him by worshipping and relishing His grace and glory all the more. And by inviting others to see and savor His splendor likewise.

   In Christ,

   Bob Hayton

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5. “But my reputation is not all that valuable and worth protecting, really. I choose to identify with Christ where He leads me, come what may.”

   Well said, Bob.

   I too have been involved in some of these alcohol discussions, but I think it may very well be time for me to exit from them. Your comment that I quoted above is convicting to me.

   To explain, I get rather heated in these discussions, and sometimes it is because I see the Word of God being taken lightly and it bothers me. However, I think at other times it is because I am trying to defend myself against those who say I am stupid or sinful because of the path I have chosen.

   I usually try to start out by giving the Scriptural point of view, which is usually ignored, and then I get all bent out of shape. Too often though, I get bent out of shape not because Scripture is ignored, but because my argument is ignored (another argument entirely).

   I appreciate your humility and Christlike spirit in these discussions. It is an example and rebuke to me.

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6. Fitzage,

   It is easy to say the words I said, and hard to practice it. I understand where you are coming from.

   I think it is important to stand up for Scripture and present a positive view. But I think we need wisdom as to when to just leave discussions, realizing our point has been made but is not being heard.

   I appreciate your posts over on your blog, and whenever I run across them somewhere else. Perhaps the best way for us to avoid the appearance of being an interconnected group of young ex-fundy punks is by continually reminding ourselves of the need to depend on Christ for strength, grace, and wisdom. To be “swift to hear, slow to speak…”.

   I am thankful that God has so worked that I could become connected with you, your brother, and Nathan Pitchford. You all have been used in my work of growing in grace and sanctification. Thank you.

   God Bless.

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7. I wonder if you would be willing to clarify your position by answering a few follow-up questions:

   1. Would it be wrong for a Christian to drink beer?
   2. Would it be wrong for a Christian to drink other forms of liquor (e.g., scotch) – not to get drunk of course, just to “gladden the heart” ?
   3. Would it be wrong for a Christian to go into a bar for a drink?
   4. Would it be wrong for a Christian to own a bar?
   5. Would it be wrong for a Christian to own a winery?
   6. Would it be wrong for a Christian to own a brewery or a distillery?

   I have some follow-up comments that I would like to post – after I see how far you would take your position. I would think that the logically consistent answers to the above questions would be “no”, but you may see it differently.

   -David Nash

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8. David,

   I appreciate your desire to interact on this issue. I think I know where you are going with these questions, but let me make the specific context of my article clear. I have always assumed taking a sip of alcohol was equivalent to sin. I was informed my whole life that liquor was condemned in the Bible unequivocally. Through the study of scripture I became convinced this is not true. Scripture actually affirms alcohol as a good gift of God, but it does condemn drunkenness. Even after agreeing with Scripture’s position, I was loathe to drink due to my pre-bias against it and my equating drinking with an evil lifestyle. And so I am sort of divided in my response to your questions.

   To #1 and #2 I would say no, hands down. Both strong drink and wine are allowed in Scripture. (Dt. 14:22-26, Prov. 31:6-7, Num. 28:7). The effects of these drinks are praised as a gift of God (Ps. 104:14-15, Is. 24:7-11). In fact Is. 24:11 calls wine the “gladness of the earth”. Anyone who has drunken wine or alcohol would tell you that it lifts your spirit and makes you glad. It “gladdens the heart”. Grape Juice and Coca Cola do not affect you this way. Since the effect of wine and strong drink is praised as part of God’s intention, other types of alcohol would be okay as well. As long as they are not abused. Some types of alcoholic drinks (like a new beer in Europe that has 90% alcohol content, I just heard about) might be extremely unwise to use. Who would want to drink only 2 spoonfuls of a drink (that is the suggested serving size–from the interesting facts section of the latest World magazine) anyway? But generally I would affirm the discerning/moderate use of any alcoholic beverages.

   As for points #5 and #6, I would also say no. Now, I may be inclined to be careful in my advertising strategy, and may try to decorate my packaging with Bible verse quotes or something–to do my part in not encouraging drunkenness. But for me to produce something which God says is good, but which may be abused by sinful man, is not sinful and is morally neutral. Could I own a gun manufacturing plant? Couldn’t people misuse that product as well?

   Now at points #3 and #4, I think more wisdom is required. God affirms that a use of alcohol to produce joy in one’s life is good. He even encourages giving alcohol to those of heavy hearts or a mourning spirit (Prov. 31:6-7, Jer. 16:7-8). Yet there are also other principles revealed in the Bible for which we can apply to the varying situations we encounter in life. Our culture in a large part promotes a wild party atmosphere where drugs sex and alcohol abound. For this reason I may judge it best to stay out of anything like a nightclub environment. Also, many bars seem interested in promoting a very worldly mindset–swearing, lewd behavior, provacative dress characterize these places. While they also serve burgers and fries, and could be a place I could enjoy a beer and a meal with friends, my utilizing that bar may be promoting this unChristian worldview of a party mentality. However, there are other bars where such an atmosphere is not to be found. They are more family oriented (like Applebees) or present a more neutral environment. I would gravitate toward those bars. Yet if a bar is only a place where people drink and have a good time, I cannot really condemn it. A communal feast in Bible times would bear many similarities. And people are people–most are not saved. I think we are all required to exercise discernment in such choices, but if our predisposition is alcohol is evil or one drink will almost certainly lead to many many more, then I can see we would come to different answers.

   Sorry, Dave, but I tend to be longwinded in any of my responses!

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9. Good questions, Dave. I’m not sure if your intention is to ‘entrap’ those of us who drink alcohol in moderation in some kind of ‘compromising situation’, or whether your questions are genuinely intended to raise an ethical/moral point. I’d agree with Bob on all points, and I think he stated his reasonings well.

   Personally speaking, I’d like to someday have my own ‘microbrewery’ so that I can create different kinds of beer that are similar to brands that I like. My preferences for beer is not because of the alcohol content (considering my size, which is 6’2″ and 300 pounds, it would take a great amount of alcohol for me to become ‘drunk’– which I have never become), but rather the taste of some beers. The more prominent beer companies out there (Anheuser-Busch, which makes ‘Budweiser’, Coors, Sam Adams, and Miller) have big advertising budgets, but they never get my money because their product tastes HORRIBLE, let alone some of their TV advertising being associated with sinful behavior. I usually prefer lagers like Yuengling, Foster’s, and Corona, which have appealing taste. At any rate, I would own my own microbrewery, but I wouldn’t sell any of the beer; I’d prefer to drink it myself. Besides, grapes don’t do well down here in Florida, so I wouldn’t want to drink the wine from verrry sour grapes.

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10. Bob,
    I do not say anything in a judgmental manner. My heart really does break to know that you have done a 180. I am nowhere close to where I should be so I do not look down on anyone. I guess I got it from my father.

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11. Bob,

    That was a very interesting article by Ben Merkle. I really liked his conclusion, which he said, “Recently, as the micro-brew market has opened up, America has seen the resurgence of a number of great beers. But this is only a superficial recovery. While it is true that we are now offered a variety of beers, the root of the problem remains. The church, in general, still links the prohibitionist mentality to piety and can’t even stand alcohol in the Lord’s Supper. It would appear that the American culture aptly portrays the American church. We have an emasculated church and wimpy beer to match.” Sooooo much of the ‘resentment’ and angst against alcohol as a beverage goes back to the attitudes prevelent in the late 1800’s through Prohibition. I even was a member of a church that observed the ordinance of the Lord’s Supper with alcoholic wine, but also had in its Church Covenant that members were to abstain from alcoholic beverages!

    Considering the types of beer out there, I would hope that you could be able to taste beers that I believe are really good in taste. Although Merkle had some negative things to say about lager, I’d be tempted to disagree with his opinion on what tastes good, although I generally agree with him that most ‘prominent’ American beer is nasty tasting. Some lagers are really, really good beers. Michelob AmberBock is probably the best out there that is available all across the USA. If you’re able to get it, I’d also suggest Yuengling Lager, Killian’s Red (Irish), Foster’s (Australian), JM Dundee’s Honey Lager, Bass Ale (British), Tuborg (Danish), Newcastle (British), and Corona (Mexico). Hopefully you’ll discover such to be very refreshing, and not too expensive by the six-pack (and, by the way, only get beer in a bottle– cans just don’t hold flavor very well).

    Personally speaking, I was once an abstentionist until not too long ago. I nearly had it out with my wife’s parents because I didn’t want alcohol present at my wedding (which was only a year and a half ago). A former pastor of mine, Fred Zaspel, wrote an article about wine and alcohol, and that is what started me to rethink what the Bible really had to say about alcoholic beverages and whether believers could drink without being in sin. Grace from God, methinks, showed me my ignorance about His goodness in freeing me from such unbiblical attitudes toward what He calls ‘good’!

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12. Larry,

    Good comments. I have only had a few drinks of only one kind of beer to this point. But I aim to try the darker and richer beers in time. Your point about beer is echoed by an article written by Ben Mercle for Crendenda Agenda (vol. 11 issue 2).

    Another interesting article I read on the issue of wine in general is entitled “Worshipping with Body” and is written by Douglas Jones, also for Crendenda Agenda (vol. 10 issue 2). That article deals with feasting and celebration, and our modern lack of it compared to the Scriptural model. Fascinating read, you should look at it.

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13. A comment for Larry:

    Entrapment? I should hope not. I just wanted to be sure of a few points. First of all, is any distinction being made between alcoholic wine and other alcoholic beverages? (no) Secondly, is there consistency between the approval of consuming alcohol and the approval of selling it? (yes) and Thirdly, is there recognition of other factors besides the drinking of alcohol itself, e.g., the atmosphere in some bars (yes).

    And for Bob:

    There are three common positions on alcohol today. The first would be a total abstinence position: it is wrong for all Christians to consume alcohol as a beverage. The second would be a “wisdom” position: while it can not be prohibited for all Christians in all cultures, it is *unwise* for Christians in our American culture to consume alcohol as a beverage. The third position is the one which I believe you are advocating: it is wrong to prohibit or discourage Christians from consuming alcohol according to Biblical guidelines.

    The position which I would hold is the “wisdom” position, and here are a few reasons why:

    1. The function of wine is different in our society than what it was in Bible times.

    Israel was primarily an agrarian society. Outward manifestations of God’s blessing included sufficient rain; protection from external enemies, pestilence, and plague; and a bountiful harvest. The cream of the crop (so to speak) would be the oil, wine, wheat, milk (and other animal products), and honey. If the harvest was good, then these could be had in abundance. If times were lean, then only the rich could afford a steady supply. With no refrigeration and no pasteurization, there really were very few beverage choices. In that environment, what could be better than wine? What’s more, alcohol was also very useful for water purification, as well as medicinal uses. (Can you even imagine living in a society without aspirin or Tylenol?)

    Our society today (in America) is very different. Most of us don’t have a seasonal harvest; we have a weekly paycheck. Even the poorest of our society has a multitude of appealing food and beverage choices on a daily basis. Water purification takes place at the local water treatment plant. We have all manner of medicines available without having to resort to alcohol. Also, because of the prominence of automobiles in our culture, there is significant danger to the driver and to others for driving while intoxicated. Also there is a significant cultural acceptance of not only intoxication but drunkenness (as long as nobody gets hurt).

    2. The potency of wine is different in our society than what it was in Bible times.

    Now you can read some studies that say that the alcoholic content of wine today is about what it was 2000 years ago, and you can read other studies that say that the wine of 2000 years ago was significantly more diluted (and therefore less potent) than the alcoholic beverages of today. I tend to put more stock in the latter, because of the following point, which is…

    3. The negative effects of alcohol

    I was actually a little surprise by this, but do you know that if you google “alcohol” and “effects” you will get page after page of references to many negative effects of alcohol. *Small* amounts of alcohol produce a feeling of euphoria, but past that alcohol is a depressant and its list of side effects is long (and sobering): loss of inhibition, loss of alertness, impaired reasoning, emotional swings. It takes as little as 1 to 1.5 drinks to impair driving performance (though this may not be enough to fail a sobriety test). Also for women who are pregnant, alcohol affects the fetus as well. When I try to reconcile these well-documented negative effects with some admittedly positive references to wine in scripture, one way for it to makes sense is if the alcoholic content of the wine of the Bible was significantly lower than our alcoholic beverages today (back to point #2)

    4. The emphasis of Proverbs

    While there are both positive and negative references to wine in scripture, I find it interesting that majority of references in Proverbs cast a decidedly negative view on wine and strong drink. While these should not be viewed as absolutes (and therefore conclusive), many of the warnings in Proverbs appear to be particularly relevant to our society today.

    Conclusion: in our modern society in America, there are fewer legitimate needs for wine (even in moderation) than in Bible times, and there is also far more danger. It is wise for the Christian to abstain. When Christ returns to establish His millennial kingdom, we can then safely drink the fruit of the vine with Him (Mark 14:25).

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    1. You mentioned the local water treatment plant. well Sir you’d be better off drinking wine than that stuff. Do you not realize what type of chemicals they use in those plants. once again folks; prime example of (use common sense.) Come on now brother give the man a break he is simply quoting scripture right out of the bible. Listen DONT GET DRUNK and its just as simple as that. If cant drink without getting drunk then leave it alone
       BOTTOM LINE!

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14. David Nash,

    Thank you for your ‘gracious’ comments here. Many of those who advocate your position seem to be extremely defensive (and obnoxious) about their beliefs that drinking alcoholic beverages is ‘stupid’ (as Bob Bixby claims). I think yours is a reasonable one, but it should only be held as a ‘personal preference’ rather than as a command. I don’t have a problem with anyone who believes as you do, but do have problems with those who are strident in appealing to a non-biblical basis of argumentation. In regard to your conclusions, I’d suggest that you would ‘rethink’ what the Bible says about alcohol– it is a gift from God and it is good. Regardless of the types of society that differ from ours (American/Western) and the ancients, it seems that there is abundant Biblical passages that don’t consider any difference between the two; alcoholic beverages were enjoyed whether or not non-alcoholic beverages were available. Secondly, the potency of the alcoholic content in alcoholic beverages isn’t a consideration. You could get drunk on wine that was diluted with water (if you assume that wine was commonly diluted with water in ancient times, although I think the archaelogical data from their times indicates that wine in their time was as equally potent, even in common wine). Thirdly, my wife is currently pregnant (seven months right now), and her OB/GYN doctor has said that an occaisional glass of wine is fine. There are ‘negative’ effects of alcohol, but in order to be ‘intoxicated’ in a negative way, you would have to be literally drunk. Each person has his or her threshold in which to be ‘legally’ impaired, and as such each person is responsible to maintain his/her own moderation. That is why we have laws protecting the public from people who don’t drink responsibly. This is why moderation is acceptable for anyone who desires to drink alcoholic beverages. In contrast to the negative effects of alcohol, there are many positives, including health benefits from alcohol. I don’t have the resources currently available to me right now, but I have seen published scientific studies that indicate that alcoholic beverages do have positive effects on people when taken in moderation (not to excess).

    In other words, I believe your reasoning(s) aren’t valid, at least not valid for me to consider ‘switching’ to your point of view. It’s not wrong to personally abstain for any reason, really, but those who become belligerent and schismatic over this have really got to realize that they are the ones holding to a heretical position. To hold the opinion that it’s stupid for Christians to drink alcoholic beverages is way over the line of decency, and that’s why I take umbrage at comments made by Bob Bixby and others who believe as he does.

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15. David,

    First of all, let me thank you for the kind and gracious spirit of your comments. Let me say that I respect your point of view and your arguments.

    Now I still disagree. Given the fact that wine and strong drink are very often equated with beverages that can make you drunk, it seems appropriate to use that backdrop for interpreting the words in passages which mention these drinks as a blessing from God. Also, the fact that wine is called “the gladness of the earth” and said to “gladden the heart of man” and is often said to be synonymous with joy, seems to highly push for the view that the effects of fermented alcohol are in view. Knowledge of alcoholic drinks today confirms that they can be enjoyed for their joy-producing effects well before drunkenness occurs.

    For me, whether or not the alcoholic content differed from wine today, since the effects of the alcohol are specifically praised, alcoholic drinks today should be able to be enjoyed as well. We have more beverage choices today which are healthy than they did, for sure. So we should have even less excuse to get drunk, in my opinion. Historically, beer and alcoholic drinks remained staple beverages up until the 1800s and beyond. At one point, some people promoted the use of beer over other that of other more potent alcoholic drinks as a means of helping to limit the numbers of people who became drunk. Yet it was not until the late 1800s that abstinence from alcoholic drinks was seen as the best preventative for drunkenness.

    I think you are correct in your use of Proverbs, by the way. Proverbs is above all else, poetry. So in poetic language, several proverbs condemn drunkenness. We should not overinterpret the Proverbs and lose sight of their identity as poetry. We all allow for poetic license in our songs and poems of our era, we must for Biblical poems as well.

    The only danger I see in your position is your assessment of my position as being one which advocates “it is wrong to prohibit or discourage Christians from consuming alcohol according to Biblical guidelines”. I think you are making my position say to much. You offer the “Bible teaches total abstinence” view and “the wisdom view–it is unwise for all American Christians to partake” view, and then give mine as the third option. So from this perspective, pastors much either universally discourage drinking (based on either a Biblical abstinence position, or a Bible says it is unwise for us today position) or universally encourage drinking. This is a similar to binary thinking, in my opinion.

    I think Pastors can teach the blessing of alcohol as well as its potential for being “unwise” for Christian’s to use, both for its potential danger to them, as well as due to the specific culture we live in which views alcohol as part and parcel with an anti-God spirit. Then Pastors can encourage people to excercise their individual liberty and make their own decisions according to the Spirit’s leading and in accord with their conscience. If Paul instructed the Roman church, which had people on both sides of the alcholic drink fence (apparently), to get along even though you disagree, why cannot this be our strategy? In fact, I think the tendency pastors and others have toward enforcing their personal decision on everyone as the only position which really respects the Bible is plain wrong. When the Bible does not unequivocally forbid alcohol, I think it is foolish at best and harmful at worst for pastors and others to encourage others to unequivocally avoid alcohol. (And I think Bob Bixby was getting close to this in his posts. Yet he seemed to want to have it both ways. He wanted to universally condemn it, yet allow for some to partake of it because it is not explicitly forbidden in Scripture.)

    Anyway, thank you, David, for bringing up your arguments and encouraging discussion of this topic here on my blog. You are welcome to say more, or to visit back from time to time and agree or disagree with what is being said.

    In Christ,

    Bob Hayton

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16. Bob Hayton,

    Have you considered writing a book on the subject? You have an amazing gift of writing, and conveying your thoughts very meaningfully! I think it’s very important that the unbiblical notions that many Christians have toward alcohol be addressed. I don’t like being castigated, maligned, or impugned because I believe the Word of God teaches that alcohol is a gift from God and can be partaken of freely in moderation. I do thank you for what you have written, and commend you for your godly spirit.

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17. Larry,

    Thank you for your input also. It has been good to see you here, and to be able to interact with you. I hope to see your participation in other posts which may interest you!

    God bless.

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18. Bob,

    Just a few points, as it is Sunday evening going on late.

    1. In attempting to summarize your position I did not mean to imply that it would “universally encourage drinking” or never call for warning regarding the potential for misuse of alcohol. But in reading what you have written on the subject, it seems to me that your *emphasis* is more on defending the right to partake in something the Bible teaches as good than it is on urging caution and pointing out the possible pitfalls of alcohol. I do realize that the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. If you were to summarize your position on alcohol in one concise sentence, how would you do so?

    2. I don’t understand why you are so quick to dismiss the relevance of the issue of the alcoholic content of wine in Bible times. If the wine/strong drink of the Bible *was* significantly weaker than that of common alcoholic beverages today, then it is not a simple apples-to-apples comparison to say that the Bible condones wine, and so should we.

    3. Have you ever considered that the Bible offers no prohibition for children to consume wine? If there were no law against it (in the US), at what age would you introduce your children to alcohol?

    -David Nash

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19. David,

    I’ll respond briefly.

    One sentence: The Bible praises the intoxicating effects of alcoholic beverages as a good gift from God while warning against drunkenness as an abuse of this gift, thus the Bible encourages the moderate, careful enjoyment of wine and alcoholic beverages.

    Concerning your second point, let me provide a logical synopsis which brings me to the conclusion you question. A – Wine and Strong Drink both clearly can produce drunkenness in Scripture. B – Scripture permits and encourages the use of these beverages. C – Scripture actually praises the very effects of these beverages which ultimately produce drunkenness (if over indulged in)–their intoxicating effects (joy producing, spirit-uplifting effects {which happen long before drunkenness, by the way}). So, on the basis of A, B, and especially C, I conclude D – Scripture condones the use of alcoholic drinks which are liable to produce drunkenness if over indulged in. Now D stands, whether the alcoholic content in those days was 5% (similar to modern beer), 10%, or less. Whatever the content, it was clear that it was rather easy to become drunk. And further, if it was an extremely low content, it would take much of that to produce the intoxicating effects–joy and spirit-uplifting–that Scripture praises. So especially because of C, it does not matter how much alcoholic content there was in those drinks. And further, much evidence exists that the alcoholic content was at least comparable to today’s beer.

    As for #3, I would likely not give the beverage to my children until they were legal age (Rom. 13), and if there were no laws, not until late teen age years, and then only in small amounts.

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20. Robert

    David Nash was trying to help you out, but his words have fallen short. I would like to point out that during Bible times in that very dry area the water tended to be bitter,. Growing grapes watered by the bitter water and producing a sweet drink would bring joy, meaning you wouldn’t have to drink that very bitter water. In our modern times we have clean good tasting water as compared to then.

    Another thought to bring up. In some of the larger cities in America, you will find “Rescue Missions”. These are places where men and women can come and hear the Gospel preached. Many of these people are alcoholics and need help. How can we tell these people about our Savior and the Bible and then turn around and say it is alright for you to go and have a drink of wine as the Bible says.

    One comment about Proverbs, it is a book of wisdom. Heed it.

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21. R.A. Fisher,

    I appreciate your comments. You are more than welcome to disagree with my position. Your point about joy referring to a sweet liquid versus bitter water sounds reasonable. Yet I think there are other passages which clearly say that the drunkards are howling due to lack of wine and no joy. Now, drunkards are not clamoring for sweet drinks only–they want intoxicating drinks. Further, the use of the terms wine and strong drink to clearly refer to drinks which can cause drunkenness, seem to weigh in on how we interpret the idea of joy. The use of wine and strong drink in banqueting and feasting contexts seems to be more than just due to the sweetness of the drink. The nature of the beverage is one to produce joy, which is in fitting with feasting and celebration.

    Still, even if your point concerning joy were to stand, you still could not honestly say the Bible teaches abstention from alcoholic beverages. The Deut. 14 passage instructing people to drink strong drink and wine before God, Prov. 31:6-7 and others would argue against that. You would have to assume the joy refers to sweet versus bitter, and you would also have to assume that the alcoholic content was significantly different than that of today’s beer, in order for you to teach that the Bible says not to drink today’s alcoholic beverages like beer.

    As far as rescue missions go, I do not see your point. We cannot make the Bible say what we want it to. We may think that in their position, it is not wise for them to drink alcoholic drinks, and tell them so, based on Paul’s teaching not to be enslaved by anything. Yet we would have to be bound by Scripture and say it does not expressly condemn alcohol, rather it praises the moderate use of it. I believe Proverbs warns us against the immoderate use of wine and strong drink which results in drunkenness, impaired judgment, etc. Prov. 31:6-7, however instructs for wine and strong drink to be given medicinally, and therapeutically to those ready to die, and those who have a sorrowful heart.

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22. Bob,

    I have one final post on this subject and then I’ll leave the final word for you – probably 😉

    1. Thanks for your summary – it seems clear enough. I’m tempted to shorten it further but I’d probably get into more trouble 😉

    2. Even if I agree with you on A, B, and C, and that D stands regardless of the percentage alcohol content, D is still potentially moderated by an (in dispute) lower percentage alcohol content in Bible times. Here is my reasoning: a lower alcoholic content in Bible times means that in order to get drunk you really had to try hard. You would have had to deliberately drink un-diluted wine or else drink exceptionally large quantities of diluted wine to get drunk. Would you not agree that a lower percentage alcoholic content wine would still be sufficient to produce the intoxicating effects that you mention (joy producing, spirit uplifting, etc.)? This leaves me with two conclusions for wine today – it is easier to become sinfully intoxicated *without intending to* than in Bible times, and also it is easier and *more dangerous* to become impaired (which would be somewhat less than sinfully intoxicated) because of our mode of transportation – high speed motor vehicles. This is why I have chosen the “wisdom” position for myself, and why I would recommend it to others.

    3. Do you believe that thoughtful parents in Bible times also did not allow their children to drink wine “until late teen age years, and then only in small amounts”? Also, if you believe that wine today is roughly equivalent to wine in the Bible, are you surprised by the scripture’s silence on the topic of wine and children?

    I have enjoyed our discussion, Bob. I’m glad that we are able to disagree without being disagreeable. I do hope that in the future your position on alcohol will not become a stumbling block – either for yourself or your family. I’m sure that even a Godly man like Noah had some big regrets regarding alcohol.

    “sobering” thoughts (pun intended) 😉

    Reply

23. David,

    I too have enjoyed the exchange. Your conclusions under point 2 are wise. I think even those who argue for alcoholic drinks as being encouraged by Scripture would agree that today we have both more dangers and a greater ability to become drunk quicker, easier, and without intending to. Thus wisdom is required. As in many things in life, discernment is called for. However, to simply choose to abstain may not be the most faith building means of excercising discernment. Yet the problems related to drunkenness are sobering indeed, and thus I do not despise someone’s choice to abstain. I further commend your desire to recommend rather than mandate such a practice to others.

    I agree that your point about children could point to the fact that alcoholic drinks were less potent in those days, thus less of a need for warning as to children’s use and consumption. Then again, there are not many rules handed down about alcohol anyway, only an admonition to not become drunk. Remember, the Bible does not always speak to every issue of life we sometimes want it to. It is first and foremost a revelation of Jesus Christ. It provides basic principles of wisdom for us to use in facing the myriad of choices which await us each day.

    In the realm of alcohol, let us both agree to disagree. Let us not villify and condemn where the Bible does not. And let us not scorn and chide, where the Bible says to respect and love our differing brothers.

    I sincerely pray God would bless you and yours.

    Thanks,

    Bob Hayton

    Reply

24. Hello,
    Before I read these comments, here’s what I wanted to say– Have you looked up wine and water purification in Bible times in a textbook, and if so, could you post the results here? (and I’m not sure where to post these comments so if you place them elsewhere please let me know– I’ll come here to look for your reply.) In reading various of your articles, I have wondered if I looked at your life, how would I see that you are different from a non-Christian? It seems you are making choices that come closer and closer to the world’s philosophy, and use Scripture to do it, just as you accuse others of mis-using Scripture for their own philosophies. Are you coming closer to the world? or closer to Christ? I say these things not to say anything amiss, but to provoke thought. You find total abstinence from wine wrong. What about other kinds of abstinence? Like before (and after, faithfulness) marriage? will you one day find those wrong too? And as you have obeyed these joy verses about wine, I wonder when you are going to obey the ones about foot washing, and women’s head coverings, and selling all you have and give it to the poor…. Again I say these things merely for your thought. To end on a positive note– you have indeed caused God’s people to think about what why they believe what they practice. Thank you.

    Reply
25. Pingback: Fundamentally Reformed » Welch’s Grape Juice, Worldly Wisdom, and Wine

26. Anonymous,

    You ask FR if he would one day find abstinence before or after marriage wrong. I think this is an unfair deduction. The Bible has no command not to drink wine, whereas it does have a command not to commit adultery. Also, like FR mentioned, a lack of wine was a judgment of God, just like wives being taken was also a judgment of God.

    FR, I find this entire post most affirming in my recent struggle with this. I’ve gone back and forth between this for a while, and have recently decided that it is OK, even smiled upon in the Bible. Your Scripture-laden article helps strengthen my shaky knees and weak conscience. Thank you very much. God bless!

    Reply

27. Kevin,

    Thanks for your comments. I appreciate your giving an answer to “anonymous” for me. I felt his comparison did not have much weight, but you put my thoughts to words.

    I am glad the post was a blessing to you. Perhaps you might appreciate two more recent posts on the topic.

    Will You Be Having Some Wine?

    and

    Welch’s Grape Juice, Worldly Wisdom, and Wine

    Reply

28. Does Christ believe that it is good to abstain from alcoholic wine? I think that He does believe that it is good to abstain, as The Word says in Luke chapter 1, verse 15:

    15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.

    The above verse is a reference to John the Baptist. The Word says this is a man who will be great in the sight of the Lord, and it further mentions (though certainly not as a prerequisite to being great in God’s eyes–read on) that this man will be commanded never to take wine or OTHER fermented drink. Here we see that the wine being spoken of was a fermented drink, which we can deduce from the use of the word “other” in the second part of the verse.

    However… 🙂

    When Christ references John the Baptist later on in the book of Luke, we see Him in chapter 7 say the following:

    33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ‘

    …so it appears that Christ Himself tells us that he did drink wine. They even accused Him of being a drunkard!

    Look also at Luke chapter 5, where we see Christ saying:

    37And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. 38No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins. 39And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, ‘The old is better.’ ”

    So, it is very honorable and even “great in the sight of the Lord” to abstain from alcoholic drink. Does that mean that it is wrong for others to drink? Certainly not, as Christ Himself drank wine, and even mentioned the then and now well known fact that “old wine is better.” 😉 🙂

    In Christ,

    Dan

    Reply

29. Great post, Dan. At first, you worried me, but as I read more, your point became clear.

    Reply

30. Excellent site, blessings 🙂

    Reply

31. Thank you.

    Reply

32. I think you’re making a very good point there

    Reply

33. Ich erklare meinen Freunden uber diese Seite. Interessieren!

    Reply

34. Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

    (Proverbs 23:29-35)

    Reply
35. Pingback: Will You Be Having Some Wine? « Fundamentally Reformed

36. I have to say that as a college student i have a very low opinion of anyone who openly espouses moderate drinking..once i was like you..and i believed that by showing control and drinking carefully as I do that you could teach people so that they would not abuse alcohol…however, abuse is rather hard to define biblically or even consistently between people..you don’t seem to have defined drunkenness very well either. Regardless i no longer believe that telling people that wine is a gift from God is wise..they already know that drinking is not condemned explicitly…but Christians are not capable of showing the control necessary to use alcohol biblically..moreover societal constructs create situations where using alcohol ends up functioning as a support for many other things.

    Sure, there are plenty of christians with the willpower to avoid abuse most of the time…but the number of college students i’ve met taht avoided it always? I see so many dozens of sincere christians that have fallen prey to its whiles..and then they go through that repentance phase and drink responsibly for a while, and then fall prey to peer pressure or something again…the only people i have ever met who are morally capable of always resisting alcohol were people that had no desire to drink to begin with.

    Anyways, i get the feeling you are older and that you probably have better control..and less instances where pressure will hit you strongly…but i will say that if you intend to teach college students that wine is God’s gift and that it’s ok to try it..and then think that this will not lead them down a path of sin..that you’re most likely a fool…you should be warning them of the dangers…

    i suppose i should be fair and say that you could teach them that it is God’s gift but that there are dangers…but i still find the whole idea laughable…

    but whatever..most Christian leaders in college get drunk from time to time..it’s a fact..and one that sadly your viewpoint is accountable for..certainly they don’t wish to get drunk..they merely wish to enjoy God’s great gift

    Reply

37. i should probably fix that to say avg christians..but whatever..the meaning is understood

    Reply

38. lots of misspellings and is
    “espouse” really the right word? I guess what bothers me is this whole wine is good and a gift from God thing…you wish to teach this it seems…

    i find this utterly ridiculous even though the statement itself is true..

    what it reminds me most is of http://www.virb.com/brandonrike/videos/17162

    THey played this at my college..yet can I honestly say that the issue addressed here was ever a problem with any of them? the answer is no..while cowardice and a refusal to confront sin while just trying to be friends with the world and love everyone and show Christ by their lives was.

    Reply

39. Josh,

    I respect your strong feelings and opinions on this issue. I am older than most college age people but not by much, I’m still more than 2 years from 30.

    Here’s my main beef with your response. The Bible abundantly teaches that wine is a gift from God. If we are to teach the Bible we must teach that.

    Me thinks you are pointing your finger at God and effectively saying, “How could you put that in the Bible God? Okay so its not a sin to drink, but look at the harm drink does? Don’t you know about the societal constructs and peer pressures and the difficulty of holding to moderation in today’s world? Why then speak so positively so often about alcohol? Don’t you know what you’re doing???”

    Josh. By all means warn against drunkenness as God does. But don’t add prohibitions where God hasn’t. Didn’t Jesus come down harshly against the Pharisees for adding to God’s law? Didn’t he claim they missed the whole point?

    Wasn’t it rash for Jesus to provide so much more alcoholic wine for the wedding feast at Cana?

    To me this is about Scripture. Something God abundantly and clearly calls good, is being said to be “bad”. We think we know better than God?

    Reply

40. I have taken an intense interest in this subject and have been reading a lot on both views of moderation ism, abstention ism & prohibition ism. One of the best articles I have came across on the subject is fond in the Wikipedia encyclopedia CHRISTIANITY AND ALCOHOL. Another interesting article I fond was from a web blog called Grace and Truth to You, article entitled Conversion to Christ Over a Glass of Wine. This is a blog of a Southern Baptist pastor who speaks out against his SB Conservatives of Texas over their extra-Biblical requirements of total abstinence. Drinking with Calvin and Luther is a good book on the history of alcohol in the church.

    Most all of the Christian Prohibitionist arguments are not taken from the scriptures which is quite ironic given the fact they believe the Bible is the final authority. There arguments are from data, statistics, culture, and human reasoning.

    I have never been a total abstainer of alcohol but have always attended teetotaler churches. I would have a couple beers when visiting my wife’s family and on special occasions at a fine restaurant it just seem right to have a glass of wine with the meal.

    It was not till the summer of 2004 when I made the discovery of the micro/craft brewed beer revolution in America that I began to drink in moderation on a regular basis. It was then I decided to take a serious look at this issue. “Seeking those things that pleases the Lord” (or don’t) I needed to find out if what I was doing was really sin as some would have us to believe.

    In a nut shell I came to the conclusion that the teetotalers “do good” in their abstinence of alcohol in the same way Paul said in 1Cor. 7:1 “It is good not to marry….” but in 1 Tim. 4:1-4 (1) “In the later times…..(3) They forbid people to marry…..(4)For everything God created is good….” (Please read these verses in their entirely)

    Reply

41. You need to have a edit button because I notice I spelled restaurant RESTRIANT and my spell check don’t know what I meant to wright.

    Reply

42. I apologize for the consecutive post but I was reading through all the post carefully and wanted to make a commit on Larry Lawton March 22, 2006 7:50am post. I don’t agree with lumping Samuel Adams (SA),Boston Beer Company in with Budweiser, Miller,Coors (B/M/C). SA makes up less than 1% of all beer sales in the U.S. Their advertising dollars is just as dwarf. I have seen SA commercials in my area but never ones that were of poor taste. Has for the taste that is a matter of ones taste buds. I will say at a beer web site called Beer Advocate members rate and write reviews of just about every beer under the planet. B/M/C rates very poorly but SA rates very good with all their beers. I am not loyal to any particular brand of beer. I have tried 134 different beers with them being classified into 48 different styles.

    Reply

43. Jason,

    I appreciate your interaction in my old threads. Blessings to you.

    Unfortunately, WordPress.com doesn’t allow users to edit their comments, but I did make the correction needed for you.

    One critique on your 1 Cor. 7:1 point, the Greek text does not say “marry”. It says “touch”. And that may well be a euphemism for marry, but some (especially fundamentalists), go with the literal meaning. To them the parallel verses would not be parallel, losing the value of your argument (although in honesty, 1 Cor. 7 does argue against marriage in a certain situation).

    And I agree SA is quite different thatn B/M/C. Personally, I enjoy some Michelob beers, and an occasional Miller Genuine Draft or Coors. But for the most part I try to avoid all buds and budweisers. Part of this is the expense factor.

    Again, good to hear from you.

    Bob Hayton

    Reply

44. Bob, you are right I was using the NIV and touch is is the more literal meaning. Thanks for the correction on that point. I’m new to your site and was not paying attention to what was old threads or new.

    This issue just surface between me and a dear fundamental Baptist friend. He had genuine concern for me. and said that God has set a line in which we must not cross over. By me choosing to drink I move myself closer to that line and make it possible to cross over by the possibility of getting drunk or worse yet by becoming addicted. He would rather stay as far away from that line as possible. My only response I could think of at the time was to apply that logic in another situation such as marriage. In our society today the divorce rate is about 50% even among Christians. Yet we don’t prohibit marriage in our churches because of a 50% possibility we could commit the sin of divorce.

    Reply

45. Please look at the description of our latest book, The Late Great Evangelical Church, by Doner. He shows how Fundamentalism has greatly compromised the church. Look at the chapter headings. –Oakdown.com

    Reply
46. Pingback: Charles Spurgeon and Wine « Fundamentally Reformed

47. I too have taken a hard look at the biblical position on drinking wine. I was raised in a minister’s home and brought up to believe that you don’t drink, get your ears pierced, dance, gamble….etc. For years, I didn’t really know what grace was. I have since come to realize that trying to earn God’s favor is not possible….or what God intended! In reading the entries, I wanted to contribute what I see as a ‘logical’ point for enjoying wine. I liken the drinking of wine to enjoying marital relations. Outside of marriage, the bible most certainly does not approve! However, within the bonds of marriage, sex is accepted, right and highly encouraged from our Lord. Sex is not sinful when acted within the intended boundaries of marriage. In the same way, drinking wine is not sinful when used within the boundaries of God intentions. I can say with certainty that questions would indeed be raised if Christians took the stance to abstain from sex because you could be tempted to have sex outside the bonds of marriage. Taking the stance of abstinence in drinking is similar.

    Reply

48. Kendall,

    Thanks for the good point here.

    Blessings to you.

    Bob

    Reply

49. Just recently found your blog. Nice post. Do you mind if I quote some of your stuff in a blog I am preparing?

    Reply

50. Sure Erik. Just provide a link back to this post.

    Blessings in Christ,

    Bob

    Reply

51. I enjoyed the discussion here.

    I’ve been participating in a discussion on Boundless.org and was sent on a chase for articles condemning the use of alcohol.

    I grew up in the Episcopal church, so this whole argument is only a recent one for me to deal with.

    Concerning giving alcohol to children:
    Strong liquor has been used mixed with milk to calm babies’ stomachs and help them sleep better.

    I personally was allowed to have a sip of wine starting at the age of 10 with every major family dinner (Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas). I remember my father sending me to visit a friend in Wisconsin with money for Milwakee brewed beer when I was 13 (I was adamently opposed to this idea, but I laughed at how serious he was about it).

    As I grew older, my parents and uncle felt it better to expose us to alcohol and teach us how to use it wisely while we were still young enough to be influenced by them. In their minds, far better for us to not feel the need to sneak out and over-indulge on a binge that to be free to drink within the presence of family members.

    I appreciate many of your arguments. I have never questioned whether it was a sin or not to partake in alcoholic drinks. This was simply because by the time I was old enough to legally drink and no longer at my “dry-campus” college, I had already been exposed to what the bible says about alcohol.

    To Dave and those that don’t agree that it is right and have chosen to abstain, I respect your choice and it makes me very happy that you have stated your position in such a way that doesn’t make me feel like the “spawn of the devil”.

    To the anonymous college student, it is possible to say “no”. However, its a lot easier to say “no” when you don’t feel that it is a novelty. Most college students shouldn’t be drinking outside of their parents’ homes due to the country’s laws, anyway. But when drinking, I would encourage every christian to set a limit before they ever start drinking.

    Reply
52. Pingback: Isaiah 16:10 and the Two-Wine Theory « Fundamentally Reformed

53. Could it be that what the Bible refers to as (fruit of the vine) is actually fresh grape juice and not modern day wine (grape juice left to ferment). Since the Bible does condemn strong drink.

    Reply

54. Charles,

    Thanks for dropping by. The Bible actually condones the use of strong drink in Deut. 14:22-26 and Numbers 28:7. Many want to make “fruit of the vine” into some description of non-alcoholic drink, but this is a faulty assumption. The phrase is only used by Jesus in the specific context of the Passover / Lord’s Supper. In Judaism it was a technical term for the wine used at the Passover which we know was wine (albeit somewhat watered down comparable to the alcoholic content of beer). The Bible predominantly uses the term wine, and almost always it is a fermented wine, at least most scholars say this is the case.

    We need to beware of bringing our interpretation to the text instead of letting the text force our interpretation.

    Blessings to you in Christ,

    Bob Hayton

    Reply

55. You did not post any kind of alcoholic percentages. Wine today and wine in the Bible had very differing alcoholic contents. While God may have permitted the enjoyment of fermented or “possibly intoxicating” wine, actually getting drunk on the stuff would have taken all day given its small alcoholic content. Today, beverages are not even considered alcoholic under 3.2%. Wine in biblical times appears to have been under that percentage, and while that has no effect on the thinking of people back then, it can help us to understand God’s view of wine in Biblical perspectives. What was the BIBLICAL process of wine making? Scripture must interpreted correctly. We both agree on that, but how must one view wine in regards to the culture of that day and not ours.
    Thanks,
    Your brother in Christ Nick

    Reply

    1. Nick,

       Many beers today are 3.2% content. The stuff I’ve read suggests that a typical wine in Bible times was around 4% alcoholic content or so. What you are saying about having to drink the stuff all day in order to get drunk doesn’t quite fit in with the Biblical admonitions not to get drunk, and not to be deceived by wine.

       I do agree that it is easier to get drunk using today’s distilled liquors. This doesn’t necessarily change things all that much. Scripture says, per my argument above, that the effects of wine that come prior to inebriation are commendable. So if having one’s spirit uplifted by the drink is commendable, surely this is true whether or not it took 3 cupfuls of liquid to get there or just 1. Drunkenness is still forbidden and you can avoid it easily today.

       In fact, the very cup designs for drinking alcohol today bear this in mind. Wine is served in 6 oz. wine glasses, vodka is served in 2 oz. shot glasses. Beer is served in 12 oz. mugs. Each of these servings will give one approximately the same alcoholic punch. None of these would typically get the average person drunk.

       Hope that helps. You may also want to explore other articles I’ve done on this topic under the category wine.

       Blessings in Christ,

       Bob

       Reply

       1. It is not about percentages. As always some wines are stronger than others. The only difference between wine back then and most commercial wine is how much of it is actually wine and how much other stuff added by the manufacturers. I usually try to buy wine just from people with wineyards as most commercial wine is so full of chemicals it basically destroys your liver and you also get drunk faster. From the history of my country at least people drank wine with much higher alcohol content than current commercial wine, but it was free of chemicals and additives. These are added by manufacturers to extend “shelf life”. As a result they could drink much more without getting drunk. A goblet would basically have 500 ml and probably a high alcohol of alcohol, yet the effect was different because it had no chemicals.

56. Thanks for this post Bob!
    I came from nearly identical background from you, and recently had a discussion with another friend from my past who is now also somewhat reformed but still holds on to much of the IFB legalism. His arguments against alcohol boiled down to that he believes that when I drink a glass of wine he sins. I think he about died when I told him that Jesus drank and that I believe that christians not only can but should!
    I wish I would have found this while we were still discussing it.

    Reply

    1. Glad you found my blog, Matt. I can definitely identify with your situation.

       If I can help in any way, let me know. Hope you stick around…

       Blessings in Christ,

       Bob

       Reply

57. Maranatha Bible Society: Check this Blog

    http://maranathabiblecult-12.blogspot.com/

    Reply

58. Hey, Bob. Hopefully you’ll see this comment on such an old article.

    I still get links from your blog, but my links have changed around a bit. One of them sort of works with an extra click and the other one doesn’t work.

    So if you get the chance, you could update the links to http://fitzage.com/article/alcohol-and-the-christian and http://fitzage.com/article/alcohol-and-the-christian-part-deux

    I’ll also try to get around to adding redirects in. The same goes for your Will You Have Wine article, which I get links from as well. Glad to see this is still having an effect!

    Matt

    Reply

    1. Matt,

       I’ll update the links soon. Thanks!

       Reply

59. This is a very good discussion and I heartily agree with the exposition of the author here. Actually, I agree with God. 🙂 I want to bring up what is an obvious comparison==that food (which is also a blessing) can be overused as well. As many have argued that it is easier to get drunk now a days – it is also easier to get fat! (in America anyway). Blessings! Laurie Duffy

    Reply
60. Pingback: A Heart Glad with Wine | The View from Here
61. Pingback: Cocktails, Guns, & Confederates » Blog Archive » Why Christians Should Drink Wine and Spirits

62. Ok, so I didn’t read all of your article because

    a) it’s really long
    b) it’s pretty clear from just reading points 1-4 that you went out of your way quote translations of the Bible that leave out “new wine” and instead just use the word “wine,” so it’s apparent you aren’t really serious about finding out what God’s word really says.

    I also read a random selection of comments to your article, and you corrected one poster on 1 Corinthians 7:1 about it literally saying, “…It is good for a man not to touch a woman” when he quoted from the NIV about it saying, “…It is good not to marry.” This brings me to the conclusion that

    c) you are a massive hypocrite since you corrected him on that point but will not correct yourself when the Bible distinguishes between “new wine” and “wine.”

    For example, you quote Jeremiah 31:12 from the ESV in point 1. However the NKJV, NASB, HCSB, NIV, and NLT all say “new wine.” You do the same for Deuteronomy 14:23, Isaiah 62:8-9, and Deuteronomy 12:17-19 in point 3, where again the NKJV, NASB, HCSB, NIV, and NLT all say “new wine.” And you again do the same with your Joel references in point 4.

    And since we’re on the subject of “new wine” now, let’s back up slightly to point 2 of your article. You quote Judges 9:13 from the ESV, but again the NKJV and NASB translate this as “new wine” since fermented/intoxicating wine *is not* found on the vine (for those who don’t know, the NKJV and NASB are two of the most literal English translations of the Bible currently available). To prove this point I will reference Isaiah 65:8 from the NKJV, “Thus says the Lord: ‘As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one says, “Do not destroy it, for a blessing is in it,” so will I do for My servants’ sake, that I may not destroy them all.'” “New wine” is found in the cluster of grapes and is incapable of intoxicating anyone.

    Additionally, I find it quite fascinating that you quote so many Bible texts from the ESV, but fail to include the aforementioned Isaiah 65:8 where even the ESV says “new wine.”

    Just like the Pharisees and teachers of the law in Jesus’ day, you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition of drinking alcohol.

    Proverbs 31:4-7 (NKJV) says, “It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes intoxicating drink; lest they drink and forget the law, and pervert the justice of all the afflicted. Give strong drink to him who is perishing, and wine to those who are bitter of heart. Let him drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.”

    We, as followers of God, are a royal nation of priests as stated in 1 Peter below. We, as Christians, are not perishing and are not bitter of heart. So since we are 1) kings, 2) princes, 3) priests, 4) are not perishing, and 5) are not bitter at heart, there is no place for intoxicating drinks in the Christian life.

    1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV), “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light….”

    I warn all who come across this article to not listen to what Fundamentally Reformed says. He is a blind guide–do not follow him into the pit he will soon lead you into (Matthew 15:14). He honors God with his lips, but his heart is far from Him (Mark 7:6). He twists Scripture to suit his own carnal desires, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and approving of those who do the same.

    Reply

    1. Thanks Brian for judging my motives and assuming the worst of me – and then pronouncing judgment on me and claiming I am twisting Scripture. How very nice to not even read my entire article before you dismiss me.

       I quote from the ESV consistently and not only in this article, practically every article on my blog – so there is no ulterior motive. I also studied the various Hebrew and Greek words behind the translation.

       Did you see my argument that “new wine” is alcoholic – from texts such as Hosea 4:11 and Acts 2 (not sure I made that argument in this post but I think I did in the comments)? I would recommend you read some of my other posts on the topic of wine to see the full-fledged argument here.

       It is inaccurate historically and textually to conclude that every time “new wine” is an adequate translation that it refers to non-alcoholic wine.

       I would specifically recommend you read:
       Isaiah 16:10 and the Two-Wine Theory.

       I also see you don’t talk about Deuteronomy 14:26 or any of the other solid arguments made in the post above.

       Proverbs 18:13 (ESV) If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.

       Reply

63. [I quote from the ESV consistently and not only in this article, practically every article on my blog – so there is no ulterior motive.]

    Funny you should say that, because in this very blog post you quote Ecclesiastes from the NASB in point 2.

    [I also studied the various Hebrew and Greek words behind the translation.]

    Then you should know that ‘yayin’ does not always mean fermented/intoxicating (most of the time it does, but not always). This is proven in Nehemiah 13:15 (NKJV), “In those days I saw people in Judah treading wine presses on the Sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and loading donkeys with wine [yayin], grapes, figs, and all kinds of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. And I warned them about the day on which they were selling provisions.”

    Nehemiah specifically says some were treading wine presses. You tread wine presses to get juice from grapes. And juice from grapes is not fermented or intoxicating. The people were loading freshly trod grape juice onto donkeys and taking it into the city to sell (along with other fresh produce and food). And if you read the rest of the chapter you can clearly see that Nehemiah himself wrote it because he talks about himself in first person. Nehemiah himself calls fresh grape juice ‘yayin.’

    [(Recommendation to read blog post about Isaiah 16:10)]

    Isaiah 16:10 (NKJV), “Gladness is taken away, and joy from the plentiful field; in the vineyards there will be no singing, nor will there be shouting; no treaders will tread out wine [yayin] in the presses; I have made their shouting cease.”

    This further proves my point since Isaiah also refers to ‘yayin’ as fresh grape juice from treading wine presses.

    Jeremiah does the same thing as well in Jeremiah 48:33 (NKJV), “Joy and gladness are taken from the plentiful field and from the land of Moab; I have caused wine [yayin] to fail from the winepresses; no one will tread with joyous shouting—not joyous shouting!”

    So Nehemiah, Isaiah, and Jeremiah all refer to ‘yayin’ as freshly trod grape juice. Furthermore, you completely fail to mention Nehemiah 15 at all in this post or in your Isaiah 16:10 post.

    [Did you see my argument that “new wine” is alcoholic – from texts such as Hosea 4:11 and Acts 2…]

    Then you should already know that ‘tiyrowsh’ can be (rarely) defined as fermented wine, depending on the context. Strong’s Note H8492 plainly states this (http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/H8492/tiyrowsh.htm). Most of the time ‘yayin’ means fermented wine, but not always as I’ve shown above. And most of the time ‘tiyrowsh’ means unfermented wine, but not always as Strong’s Note H8492 and Hosea 4 show.

    Hosea 4:11 (NKJV), “Harlotry, wine [yayin], and new wine [tiyrowsh] enslave the heart.”

    Acts 2:13 (NKJV), “Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine [gleukos].”

    And as the context of Acts 2 clearly indicates, the Greek word ‘gleukos’ is being used as fermented wine.

    [It is inaccurate historically and textually to conclude that every time “new wine” is an adequate translation that it refers to non-alcoholic wine.]

    I never said it did and freely admit that ‘tiyrowsh’ can mean fermented wine in rare cases. But your blog post goes to great lengths to hide the fact that the Bible distinguishes between fermented and unfermented wine, most often translating fermented wine as “wine” and unfermented wine as “new wine.”

    [I also see you don’t talk about Deuteronomy 14:26 or any of the other solid arguments made in the post above.]

    Because
    a) your arguments only appear solid if you quote from the ESV and no other version
    b) the ‘shekar’ (or strong drink) in Deuteronomy 14:26 was *not* for drinking but was only to be poured out before the Lord in the holy place (the sanctuary), as indicated in Numbers 28:7
    c) you seemingly fail to comprehend basic facts of the kingdom of God, even when you quote the very verses that should reveal them to you, such as Isaiah 25:6-8 where verse 8 says (NKJV), “He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces….”

    God swallows up death, thus destroying death itself. Jesus gives us further information about His kingdom in Matthew 6:19-20, where in verse 20 we find that moth and rust do not destroy. So death and decay are destroyed and do not exist in God’s kingdom.

    Fermented or intoxicating wine *can not* be created without decay. Since death and decay are both non-existent in God’s kingdom, it is impossible for the “wine” mentioned in Isaiah 25:6 to be fermented. This verse is simply saying that God Himself will prepare only the best food and drink for his people.

    The words are right in front of your eyes but you refuse to see. This is why I call you a blind guide.

    Reply
64. Pingback: Wine Alcoholic or Not? - Page 3 - Christian Forums

65. Great article and tremendous follow up comments! What a sane, loving group of people I have found here compared to most sites, even those that are allegedly Christian! Kudos to everyone!
    I believe the demonization of alcoholic beverages is as much a stronghold as their use. I grew up in a strict fundamentalist (Baptist) household in which the mere use of alcohol for any reason was prohibited and was at least as bad as fornication, adultery, murder, abortion, etc. When I was thirteen, I had a small sip of wine (less than a capfull of cheap a-s Mogen David!) at a friend’s house. It was terrible! I could not understand why anyone would want to drink it! I told this to my parents and they went ballistic! Their reaction could not have been worse if I had come home staggering drunk (which would be evidenced years later when I did!) I thought they would be pleased that I found the drink so vile and that it really turned me off. Their (in my eyes) gross overreaction, however, left me so befuddled that I found it difficult to believe that what I had done was so horrible. I’m sure it did not engender in me a sense of confidence in their judgement, and, in fact, their three sons eventually eschewed their advice against pre-marital sex, alcohol, divorce, and drug use as well. And in typical Baptist fashion, gluttony, that most pardonable of fundamentalist sins took a back seat, even as both parents developed diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease.
    It was always funny to me how my mom would do a 180 in her opinion of someone if she found out they drank, even if just socially. I used to love asking her what she thought about the “So-and-so”s, of whom I already knew she had a favorable opinion. She would then wax eloquently about how wonderful they were and how much she admired and respected them. Then I would say something like “Huh! You’ll never guess who I saw at ____________’s drinking a beer (or glass of wine) with his (her) lunch! Mr. (or Mrs.) “So-and-so”!!! Without missing a beat or pausing to think about what she had just said, she would invariably respond, “That’s probably why they’re having so much trouble with their [kids, finances, marriage, etc.]. It simply was not possible to drink in moderation with my parents. And I’ll tell you what: the first time I ever actually got a buzz drinking (I had, like, a double scotch, a shot of rum, and a shot of vodka) when I was 18, all I could think was “Those dirty liars! This is the greatest thing in the world!!!” Of course the years and experience took the polish off that moment. I would end up with multiple DUI’s and my younger brother would end up drowned in the Apalachicola River after a night of heavy drinking the week his divorce was to be final, leaving behind two small children and devastated parents and siblings.
    So, were they right all along? Yes and no. Their warnings were true and on the mark. The abuse of alcohol is a very serious problem and should always be avoided. Our family does not have a strong history of abuse, but there is an uncle who is an alcoholic. And the cost of alcoholism is astronomical, and not just in monetary terms. However, “use” is not necessarily “abuse”, and this “demonization” of drink always rang a little too hysterical in our ears, and when we began to expand our wings–as the offspring of humans are wont to do!–we felt betrayed–and went overboard. Years ago I read somewhere that, according to the AMA, problem drinkers tend to come from two very different types of families: those in which one or both parents were themselves problem drinkers and THOSE IN WHICH BOTH PARENTS WERE TEETOTALERS. Well, QED.
    Something is going on here that has been ignored all to often in the evangelical community, and I think it has something to do with attacking inanimate objects. It is very akin to “the war on” drugs, poverty, terrorism, etc. It is simply illogical and irrational to declare a war on a thing, an idea, or an abstract concept. It’s kind of like declaring war on thought. Alcohol is not evil. Neither is it good, not in a moral sense, any more than dirt or air or fluorocarbons are good or evil. However, it CAN be good and it CAN be bad FOR you. I still drink. At 53 years of age, I have health problems that are mainly joint/skeletal in nature. I try to watch my diet and get as much exercise as I can. I have so far avoided the diabetes curse for which I am thankful to the Eternal Lord Jesus! That said, once or twice a week, I go out to my shop (no heavy machinery!) and work on my art projects while “sucking down” a few brews. I don’t get drunk, but I do get very glad! And, yes, I am thankful at those times that it is there for me. I enjoy it, I control it, and I stop when I’m done. I cannot for the life of me see what is so terribly wrong with that. Got a problem with booze? Don’t drink it. Got a problem with rock music? Don’t listen to it. Got a problem with donuts? Don’t eat them. These things are between you and your Lord. But just remember: they are just THINGS. Not demons…and not angels.

    Reply

    1. Thanks, Jon for your testimony.

       Blessings,

       Bob Hayton

       Reply
66. Pingback: There Are No Exceptional Sins | I, Pandora
67. Pingback: Classic Cocktail Adventures » Blog Archive » Why Christians Should Drink Wine and Spirits

68. This is probably the best post I have seen on drinking in the bible. I find it odd that the bible would be somewhat ambiguous on such an important subject. Why does God leave us to debate on the meaning of original Hebrew and create room for doubt that people are angrily replying? Probably because they have personal objection to drinking I imagine, but yet they have coherent arguments like many grey area subjects in the bible. God says he is not the author of confusion, but I think there are numerous subjects that are quite ambiguous in the bible. I have never understood this, but that is for another day.

    I agree with your assessment as to me there are just too many verses I feel can’t be disputed. However, I find this one the most troubling against your argument. Someone mentioned it earlier, but you did not reply. Any thoughts on it?

    (Proverbs 23:29-35)

    Reply

69. The same holier than thou types who protest against drinking in moderation have no compunctions from the “spirit” they follow to avoid GLUTTONY (which is in the same category of sin as drunkenness) judging by some of their obvious “pot luck” bellies. ; } And I won’t even go into the subject of the way so many of them gossip about their neighbor, which is also clearly condemned by God with no exceptions whatsoever. Oh, such hypocrisy!

    Reply

70. Drunkenness is, like most sins, a corruption of the gift of God. The devil is a vandal. Food is to gluttony what alcoholism is to alcohol, or sex is to adultery. Many of God’s gifts have misuses. Acusing God of corrupting the gift is like the old Adam, “the woman you gave me…” Is that where you would like to stand before God?

    Reply

71. Absolutely fantastic…well written I enjoyed it thoroughly.
    Be blessed

    Reply

72. Bob I absolutely agree with your post. Getting “drunk” is where we go wrong. If you abuse your body then it will show physically. Also, consuming a lot of wine will cost a “lot” of money. Everyone must use their common sense. The body will tell you if you’ve had too much wine (i.e. feeling sick). Drinking wine,proper diet, rest, and exercise is the key. The God of all creation want us believers to take care of our bodies and not destroy it. Satan seeks to kill steal and destroy. I believe as long as you drink to the point you feel sick and throw up you are alright. Listen to your body folks. Use your common sense.

    Reply

73. Correction: As long as you “DON’T!!!!!!!” drink to the point that you throw up and feel sick

    Reply

74. Thank you SO much for this thorough discussion on the topic. It REALLY helped me! I SO appreciate you taking the time to discuss this topic from a holistic perspective!
    God’s richest blessings to you!
    Sue

    Reply

    1. Glad it helped, Sue. Sorry for the delay in replying (working out a few kinks on my blog at the moment).

       Reply
75. Pingback: Revisiting Wine and Gladness – Fundamentally Reformed

76. AM REALLY PLEASED WITH YOUR SUBMISSION AND DEAP TEACHINGS.

    THANKS FOR SHARING.

    PLEASE MY QUESTION DEVIATE FROM THE CONTEXT. ” ARE CHRISTIANS SUPPOSE TO TITHE TODAY?

    Reply

    1. Sorry for the delay. I don’t believe I have written on it (I can’t remember). I do think that tithing is not applicable today. Believers should give and support their pastors and church, but a strict 10% is not binding on us today. The New Testament teaches proportional giving (give according to what you have) – but there are many examples of believers sacrificially giving beyond their ability. So the pattern is to give sacrificially and eagerly, support your church and other ministries, but we are not bound to a strict percent. There are also biblical teachings related to providing for your family and not being caught in a lot of debt – those weigh in to how much we should give – and it will vary depending on our own situation. Maybe I will post on this someday. Thanks for the question.

       Blessings,
       Bob Hayton

       Reply

77. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

    4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

    5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

    Not only would it wrong to command people abstain totally from wine. It is a teaching of demons. It is going beyond the word of god. To even argue that the wine in the bible was fermented you would have to have a seared conscience.

    Reply

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