Will You Be Having Some Wine?

~ fundyreformed

Ps. 104:15 About six years ago I took my future wife out on our first OCD (off campus date). We were at Olive Garden and at our own table (which was a big deal back then :)) and this suave waiter walks on up and presents us with a bottle of wine. He asks, “Will you be having some wine?” I quickly replied to my wife’s chagrin, “I’m not old enough but she is!” Flustered, Carolyn declined the wine and gave me a look. It was her 21st birthday, and drinking wine was the farthest thing from either of our minds.These days, I am still not much of a wine drinker. I am slowly developing a taste for it and experimenting with all the options. But at times it still shocks me to think that I am actually allowing alcohol to pass through my lips. Any such drink was the biggest taboo, growing up. It was just assumed that the only Biblical position was absolute and total abstinence.During a period of a few years, while I was beginning to slowly register conflicting opinions and doubts concerning my fundamentalist beliefs, I began coming across verses concerning wine which amazed me. I kept a running list, even before we made our break with fundamentalism. A professor at college had even argued that alcohol for medicinal purposes was clearly condoned by Prov. 31:6-7 and 1 Tim. 5:23.

Judg. 9:13 After changing our positions on many of the extreme fundamentalist beliefs I was raised with, I was even more open to the potential (which at that point seemed likely based on my ever growing list) that the Bible allowed for the moderate use of wine and alcoholic beverages. But still several months went by without a determination to even give alcohol a sip. I say this to reitirate that drinking alcohol was no special desire of mine. Tee-totalism was just normal, as both of our families and extended families for the most part do not drink.Two events moved me to have some wine, however. First, I came across some blogposts written by a blog friend of mine, Matt Fitzsimmons. They were well written, and adequately defended in the comments (check them out here & here). That discussion brought my list back to mind. By this time I was completely convinced (having been quite familiar with tee-totaller arguments for some time) that the Bible not only permitted but encouraged the moderate use and enjoyment of wine and alcoholic beverages. Further I had been convinced that many of the “wisdom” arguments against liquor had equally convincing counter arguments and further “wisdom” arguments levied against them.Still I remained dry. But a month or so later I was asked what I thought about alcohol by a cousin of mine. He actually married into the family as I did, and we both went to the same college (even sang on a men’s quintet together). Our discussion was overheard and the fundamentalist in-laws grew livid! Well not exactly, but there was quite a commotion for a usually soft-spoken bunch. Further conversations with Nathan led to my being given some flavored beer. He also gave me some research he had compiled–a list of all the verses referring to alcoholic beverages in Scripture, along with a few articles. Reading the articles made me even more convinced that wine is to be viewed as a good gift from God. Who was I to snub my nose at God’s gift and say, “No, thanks, God. I am better off without that.”So, I determined to partake of alcoholic beverages to God’s glory. And to this day I conscientiously seek to honor God and thank Him for the wonderful gift of alcohol. By no means am I an experienced drinker yet. But I have experienced the joy God intends for us through this refreshing means.Enough about me, what about you? Will you be having some wine?

I am writing this because of stumbling onto several blogposts on this very subject. The Southern Baptist Convention just recently passed another resolution condemning the “use” of alcohol. Not the “abuse” but its “use”. This has sparked several blog objections and a few have caught my eye. Below I am listing some links for you to peruse. I also mention a few things I have learned recently through these blogposts. But before I send you to these links, take the time to read my first post defending wine entitled “‘Wine to Gladden the Heart of Man’: Thoughts on God’s Good Gift of Wine”.

Cheers!

∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞

Links:

∼striving for the unity of the faith for the glory of God∼ Eph. 4:3,13 “¢ Rom. 15:5-7

57 thoughts on “Will You Be Having Some Wine?”

  1. Unfortunately, I accidently deleted this post this evening (actually around 5pm CST on 8/3). I had saved most of the body of the post and so was able to reconstruct it. The comments above were the actual comments made on the post with the exception that any of my own responses were lost. Therefore, I will try to recreate them as best I can.

    Thanks for understanding the problems of occasional human error!

  2. Although I remain dry myself, a Reformed friend, welcoming me to my newly held Reformed views in his own characteristic way, offered me a bottle of Heineken. I thanked him, but turned him down, receiving a friendly chide for my turning down “God’s good gift.” I replied simply, “Judge not another man’s servant, for to his own master he stands and falls–and if my master smells that stuff on my breath when I get home, I’ll be sleeping in the dog house!”:)

  3. Bob,

    Great article. I needed some references for my upcoming ‘position paper’ for my American Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism class. My position paper will include the topic of alcohol use among Christians, and whether or not it’s ‘acceptable’ amongst believers. I believe that the Scriptures teach that the moderate use of alcoholic beverages is acceptable and that drunkenness is sin.

  5. John Chitty (aka Captain Headknowledge),

    Master?  Who’s wearing the pants in your family, anyway?  (Oops, I am sounding to IFBx-like, I guess.)

    Seriously, though, I don’t want to pressure anyone to start drinking.  I prefer to just convince them that Scripture says it is okay to do (or not do).  Everyone must stand or fall before their own Heavenly master.

  7. Bob,

    This was an incredibly courageous post considering your past affiliations. I also appreciated greatly your candor and sticking to what Scripture actually teaches about this. I myself am an abstainer….simply because of geography and not conviction. If the truth were told, if most of us were pastors in Germany this simply would not be an issue. Perhaps you could do a post in the near future about fundamentalists obsession with coffee and caffeine. That would raise some eyebrows!

    Great and timely post!

    Mike

  8. Mike wrote:
    “Perhaps you could do a post in the near future about fundamentalists obsession with coffee and caffeine. That would raise some eyebrows!”
    I would pay money to see that!

  9. Bob,

    I haven’t had any… yet. I have spent some time showing my wife what the Bible says about it. She is in agreement now, but I still haven’t had a sip yet (except for a sip of red wine, snuck out of a neighbors fridge when I was about 14).

    Maybe someday?

  10. Hey, I’m bit of an ‘experienced’ drinker of alcoholic beverages (NO! I’m not a drunk!). As for wine is concerned, it depends on your taste. It’s better to start out with a sweet wine as opposed to a dry wine because of the sweetness of grape juice. I’d suggest Sangria for this purpose (Real Sangria is a good brand to start with). It’s sweet and fruity, and from there you can begin to taste a variety of wines. I’m not big on dry wines myself, but I do like to drink some on occasion. Let me know if this is something to start with, and with the permission of Bob, if anyone has a question, let me know.

  11. What inspired my looking into these stats was the torch-and-pitchfork mentality of my fellow SBCers. Listen: I am myself a person who rarely imbibes — “rarely” coming down to about 2 bottles of wine over the course of the last 3 years, and neither in fewer than 6 or 7 sittings. I think it’s wise to keep one’s use of alcohol on a leash — because it is pleasing, and it is easy to go from use to lazy excess.

    The question, however, is if that justifies claiming, as resolution #5 does, that alcohol is causing a universal up-ending of the social contract — and it’s not by a longshot. Some people are drunks, and they need help — the vast majority of alcohol users are pretty temperate people with good jobs and decent standing in their community.

    In that, what kind of credibility do we garner for ourselves when we demonize something which is not really causing that much social upheaval but is causing a lot of people a pleasant evening out with friends?

    OK: now with that kind of credibility in-hand, let’s go and talk to people about the Gospel. That will certainly bring glory to God because when we are weak, He is made strong. No doubt.

    Sheesh.

  12. If I were to do a post on coffee and caffeine use, I’d be pigeon-holing my dad. He used to have 10 cups a day. He has since gone to decaf for health reasons.

    Caffeine is something else God has given us to enjoy, in my opinion. We must do so within reason and not enslave ourselves wrongfully, of course.

    As for me, I am not affected much by it. I can drink 4-5 cups a day for a few days in a row, and then turn around and drink none for two weeks. It depends on where I am and who I’m with.

  13. Larry,

    By all means, share your wisdom. I know that this kind of advice is not necessarily easy to come by for ex-tee-totallers.

    As I said, I am still experimenting when it comes to drinking. Part of my problem is lack of $ to try whatever someone recommends.

    I bought some dark lager based on your recommendation from my last post on wine. But alas, for someone unfamiliar to the hops taste, it was a little much. I think I need to try a lighter lager first to become more accustomed to the taste.

    I wish I would have had your advice on wine before I started with Cabernet Sauvignon. Now, that was a shock! After the third cup or so (on the third occasion), it tasted pretty good. (I even, at one point, mixed it with Sprite–that would make any wine taste-tester roll over in his grave, for sure!)  I just recently bought and tried some Pinot Grigio.  It is pretty good, with a hint of apples.  However, it is still a dry wine.  I have a bottle of White Zinfandel waiting (Sutter Home, brand) to try next.  I assume it is a sweeter wine like you recommend, yes?

    Any recommendation for brandy? I recently bought some and am wondering if you know of any good things to mix it with? I’ve experimented a little, myself, but haven’t found something just right, yet.

    Thanks, again Larry, for offering to help us with this.

  14. Greetings, Centuri0n! I feel honored that you have stopped by. I agree that our credibility is drastically affected by such an ignorant stance on alcohol.

    I perused the 75+ comments on your Beer + Wine post and was impressed by even more facts that didn’t make it into the post. This comment especially caught my eye, as you prove that alcohol is not as involved in traffic accidents as many think.

    Thanks again or your posts, and God bless.

  15. Bob,

    Wow…. your big post requires a big answer…. I’ll answer your questions (and comments) by the genre of alcoholic beverages that you commented on, and with how much should someone start out with. Here’s my observations, and I’ve been drinking alcoholic beverages for the better part of seven years.

    Wine:
    Generally, it’s better to start out with a sweeter wine for those who are unfamiliar with what would be suitable for a beginnner. Wine that is ‘dry’ is more pale in taste and can be distasteful for beginners. Wine will probably be the most difficult alcoholic beverage to appreciate when it comes to taste because the more expensive wines are dry. Here are some recommendations for beginners:
    “White Zinfandel”– Sutter Home is a good one for less $$$. Zinfandel is usually a blush wine, which is usually pink. It’s the best ‘starter’ wine that I’d recommend.
    “Riesling” (white wine from Germany or South Africa) is a mildly sweet wine that’s somewhat refined. Schmitt-Sohne is very good, and that brand has differing varieties. South African Riesling tends to be more dry, though.
    “Sangria” is the holy grail of sweeter red wines. It’s usually a ‘mixed’ wine with fruit flavors, usually citrus and berries. Apart from Zinfandel, this is usually the best starter wine to begin with. I’d suggest Gallo (California) or Real Sangria (Spain). Those are the two major brands.
    A great ‘champagne’ variety of wine is Tosti, from Italy. It’s bubbly and mildly sweet, and it’s my favorite kind of Champagne-like wine. Champagne from France is usually very expensive, and usually somewhat dry.
    Other wines you may want to start out with by experimenting, but Cabernet, Merlot, Shiraz are popular dry wines, but until you get the taste for the sweeter wines down first, the dry wines will be just outright nasty.

    Beer:
    Foreign beers are generally considered some of the best due to the influence of Prohibition in the USA and the destruction of many older American breweries during that period of time. Quite frankly, the most advertised American beer is the least tasteful, and Butt-weiser is one of the worst (in my humble opinion). Avoid Miller, Coors, and other heavily advertised beer. They just taste lousy. For the beginner, it’s best to drink light lagers first in order to acquire a taste for sweet beer, and then progress into the more full-bodied beer. IMHO, beer is my favorite of alcoholic beverages.

    To start out, it’s best to select a light lager. Within the USA, the best lager available nationally is Michelob Honey Lager, or regular Michelob (don’t get Michelob Amber Bock just yet– it’s a bit more stout). Michelob is also available in light and ultra light (a.k.a. “Ultra”), but they lack taste and body. If you’re not a calorie conscious person, it’s best to stick with regular beer and aviod ‘light’ beer. Regional favorites of mine (light lagers) are as follows:
    Yuengling Lager (Pennsylvania, although available in Florida– it’s my favorite light lager), Michelob, JW Dundee’s Honey Lager, Killian’s Red, and Samuel Adams Boston Lager. Foreign light lagers that are just fine would be Harp (Ireland), Foster’s (Australia, and the only heavily advertised beer that I’d recommend), and Tennent’s (Scotland).

    Now when you’ve got a taste for light lagers, it’s time to explore the more full-bodied ales, porters, and lagers that are available. The foreign breweries have the best available out there, especially Irish and English beer. These are my favorites: Bass Ale, Newcastle, Tuborg, and the holy grail of stouts, Guinness (beware of this one, it’s really full-bodied). American favorites are Yuengline Black & Tan and Samuel Adams (any variety, really…!). I’ve also had some great beer from some brewer in Wisconsin called Leinenkugel.

    Liquor:

    I’m the least familiar with this genre of alcoholic beverages, but I generally like the mixed drinks the best.
    Sauza Gold Tequila is the best mid-shelf tequila out there for a margarita. Make sure it’s ‘gold’ tequila and not the clear stuff.
    Scotch and Whiskey: Scotch is only ‘scotch’ if it’s made in Scotland. My favorite is DeWar’s. My favorite whiskey is Maker’s Mark, and it’s top shelf stuff– and very expensive. Don’t drink a shot of whiskey unless you are very experienced. You can get sick if you put down a shot with an empty stomach.

    Generally, a mixed drink with rum is the best route to go. Rum is not very alcoholic when compared to other liquors; it’s usually about 15-22% alcohol.

    When it comes to the ‘lifting of the spirit’ (commonly known as the ‘buzz’), I’d suggest starting out with only one alcoholic drink in two hours time. The general feeling from alcohol can be startling at first. Usually it calms and supresses, even causing a bit of drowsiness (sorta like why Nyquil causes one to become drowsy). Depending on one’s own body mass and size (weight), I wouldn’t recommend drinking any more than three drinks in a setting for a larger person, and only one if you’re pretty small. Two is average. Of course, moderation is the key. Drunkenness is sin, and the merriment of alcohol can be a problem for few, but a majority of people who drink do so in moderation. Cheers!

  16. Oh, yes, I forgot about ‘microbreweries’… if you have a local microbrewery near you, you might want to go check it out. The bartenders/waitstaff will be happy to help you get familiar with differing types of beer.

  18. 3 things:

    1) I love your blog. I swing by frequently so keep it fresh. 😉 Your journey fascinates me.

    2) Our church offers both wine and grape juice for communion now, and I thought this was a refreshing change. People can still choose, but it’s nice to see that our church is no longer treating alchohol like a giant no-no.

    3) I really enjoy a good beer with dinner (Sam Adams Hefeweizen or Anchor Steam Beer), and on rare occasion will reach for a 2nd beer. But I find myself sometimes asking, “hey is it a sin to have a slight buzz?” If I drink them too fast I will definitely feel it, but I’m always wondering if I’ve “stepped over the line.” Maybe I should be just sipping slowly, but it’s not as enjoyable. After all, it tastes great! (and IS filling!- but I’m thin) I find myself thinking, “God probably thinks alcohol is ok as long as you don’t feel the effects.” But I’m not sure this is true. I’m not sure where that “line” really is, although I certainly know what it is to be way over it (I remember the pre-Christian occasions of my youth when I got blitzed with some friends). What level of “effects” of alcohol is still ok for a Christian?

    I guess I’m not really expecting a definitive answer from anyone reading here. I just think it’s something that deserves more dialog in Christian circles.

    Cheers,
    -Steve

  19. Well, you know, the pain of living with an offended wife outweighs the pleasure of enjoying a temporary source of joy. When the latter outweighs the former, you never know.

    Thanks for the exhortation, Ralph Cramden! That was a good Indy impression. I know you didn’t have to stretch to draw on your past experiences:)

  20. Steve,

    Great to hear of one more faithful reader! Do you have any experience in fundamentalism? Just wondering what you find most interesting here. What’s your journey? If you prefer, feel free to email me directly (rjhayton @ juno . com).

    Interesting question about the buzz. Since God praises alcohol for its intoxicating effect (cheers man, makes glad the heart, etc.), I see no problem with some buzz. Of course too much buzz leads to drunkenness, so we need to be careful. I was reading something recently on Prohibition which mentioned that the Puritan preachers distinguished between drunkards and those who accidentally got drunk. If we intend to get as close as we can to drunkenness, this is foolish at best and sinful at worst. If we inadvertantly get drunk, we should repent and learn from our mistake.

    I’m not sure I know where the line is, and I second you in calling for more discussion on this. Anyone else out there with some thoughts?

  21. Bob,
    I’ll tell you more of my “journey” via email. However, my greatest curiosity with you stems from your background and departure from KJV Onlyism. As an NIV user from the get-go, this phenomenon was foreign to me for about the first 20 years of my Christian life! And then I got sucked into a vortex of endless debate and discussion of the issue in online boards. But I digress here.

    As for that buzz, I guess I’m still leary of the idea that God places his blessing on such a state. It seems all too easy to move from a buzz to a buzzzzzz, particularly because we become more inclined to drop our guard while in such a state. I’m not saying I disagree with you, but that this topic needs more fleshing out. There’s a pretty fuzzy undefined line for me between what qualfies as having a buzz vs. being drunk, and this makes me uncomfortable.

    Cheers,
    -Steve

    p.s. I’ve since repented from using the NIV and now use the translation most blessed by reformed folks: the ESV. 😉 (too bad they appear to be close to a revision already)

  22. Bob,

    Not sure I’m with you on “drunkeness is wicked, but the buzz is from the Lord.” (my words) Does “gladden the heart” have to mean a buzz? Couldn’t it mean just the enjoyment of a pleasant tasting beverage (which I’m sure was hard to come by in biblical days)? After a hard day’s work, I love a BIG glass of lemon ice tea. I could describe my experience as “heart-gladdening”.

    Also, would such a principle of moderate buzz-enjoyment give support to the moderate use of marijuana? Many of the same arguments used for moderate alcohol consumption are used for moderate marijuana use (i.e., it’s not addictive if used in moderation; it’s not harmful to your body if used in moderation, etc.)

    Lastly, I have read several articles regarding the defense of moderate alcohol consumption, I must admit that much of what is said makes alot of sense, but I have yet to find an adequate interpretation of some of the Proverbs that seem to denounce any alcohol consumption (“look not upon the wine”, etc…) Usually these verses are brushed aside as “poetic”, which I think is an inadequate argument.

    Looking forward to your comments.

  23. Recommendations:

    »I just read the article Larry Lawton recommended earlier in the comments. It is very good–especially its treatment of the meanings of the Biblical words for wine. The article is entitled “The Bible And Alcoholic Beverages” and is by Greg L. Price. You can access it here.

    »The latest excerpt posted by John Chitty is well worth the read. The article from Keith Mathison’s book discusses the arguments of several theologians that it is okay to use grape juice for communion. To the Baptists, he makes an interesting point: if the particular form of the ordinance is so important with Baptism (immersion only), than why is the particular form of the other ordinance (communion) so nonessential and meaningless (anything goes, wine or juice–whatever)? Check out the article here.

  24. Steve,

    Yes, KJV-onlyism is quite the vortex. That was perhaps my strongest IFBx point, at one time. It is definitely an issue that requires some thought and research–especially for those who are KJV-only. But for many of them, thought and research are witheld from them or frowned upon. I need to post some more on that issue going forward.

    I agree with the fuzziness of the line between buzz and drunkenness. I modified my original answer to you (in part because I do not have the original anymore) above. I am still thinking through this myself.

    If you want to email me just use the following without spaces: rjhay ton @ juno . com.

    Thanks again, and God bless.

  25. ReglerJoe,

    I do not have a huge exegetical work with lots of footnotes for you, but I think this will help. Look at Judges 9:9-13–

    “9 But the olive tree said to them, ‘Shall I leave my abundance, by which gods and men are honored, and go hold sway over the trees?’ 10 And the trees said to the fig tree, ‘You come and reign over us.’ 11 But the fig tree said to them, ‘Shall I leave my sweetness and my good fruit and go hold sway over the trees?’ 12 And the trees said to the vine, ‘You come and reign over us.’ 13 But the vine said to them, ‘Shall I leave my wine that cheers God and men and go hold sway over the trees?'”

    Here the fig tree is mentioned for sweetness and that would parallel lemonade a little. But wine is mentioned as “cheering”. I think this relates to other mentions of wine’s effect in scripture. Ps. 104:15 says it “gladdens” the heart, while oil makes the face shine and bread strenghtens man’s heart. Oil does make things shiny (it is a rich fattening thing) and bread strengthens and fills us. And yes, wine gladdens us–all these descriptions are true to form. Further Song of Solomon 1:2 states “your love is better than wine”. Certainly intimate love gives a thrill and so does wine. I don’t think lemonade works.

    I think it is the plain and obvious point of such texts that alcohol is enjoyable because of its lifting the spirit and cheering the heart. Zech. 10:7 is yet another text which specifically ties gladness of heart to wine, “their hearts shall be glad as with wine”. Again, I think the connection to wine and not any other drink or food is important. Another proof could be the numerous passages which seem to tie the joy of feasting to the drinking of wine. No wine is no joy. Think of the typical description of a medieval feast–yes there is lots of food and it is enjoyable to eat. But a big part of the mirth and enjoyment is the mead or ale or wine. This connection is plainly evident in many passages like Is. 24:7-11, Is. 22:13, Jer. 48:33, and Is. 25:6-9. Is. 24:7-11 is so poignant I just have to quote it here:

    “The wine mourns, the vine languishes, all the merry-hearted sigh. The mirth of the tambourines is stilled, the noise of the jubilant has ceased, the mirth of the lyre is stilled. No more do they drink wine with singing; strong drink is bitter to those who drink it. The wasted city is broken down; every house is shut up so that none can enter. There is an outcry in the streets for lack of wine; all joy has grown dark; the gladness of the earth is banished.”

    No one can miss the express connection between joy and alcohol in this passage.

    Now is this gladness of heart the buzz? I think it is and it is not. There is a spirit-lifting effect and a relaxing effect alcohol has on you without any buzz. But I think a controlled buzz or a small one is also enjoyable. And I think it would have to be expected at the type of feasts that were common and encouraged in Bible times. But the buzz carries a warning not to go too far. Drunkenness is sin and we should not push it or try to get as close as we can. In today’s world of super distilled spirits we must especially be careful. As I said to Steve, I do not think I have totally arrived on this particular aspect and I welcome others input.

    Concerning marijuana, it is illegal so don’t do it. Should it be? I am not familiar enough with it to have a learned opinion. There seem to be some awfully negative effects of it, enough so that our society does not allow it. The Scriptural prohibition against drunkenness argues against submitting ourselves to mind-numbing states. Total anebriation is sin, and if using marijuana at all (like 1 joint) causes something as mind altering as drunkenness it would be forbidden. But don’t look at me to be the expert with that stuff.

    About the Proverbs passages. I assume you are referring to Prov. 20:1 and 23:29-35. Concerning the second passage, vs. 30 seems to give an overall context. Those who tarry LONG over their wine are drinking more and more of it. Mixed wine is more potent as far as alcoholic content. The admonition of vs. 31 makes sense in the sense that when you know you have had enough and the alcohol looks all the more appealing, don’t look, don’t hesitate, just stop drinking and leave. Concerning 20:1, the deceit of wine and strong drink could be viewed as the fact that people think they can handle that extra glass and the next one. Drinking only one cup, or determining to drink moderately is not succombing to deceit and thus does not result in mocking and rage.

    In thinking about the Proverbs passages, keep in mind a few things. First there are other passages in Proverbs which praise wine. 3:10 equates abundance of wine with God’s blessing. 9:2,5 has Divine Wisdom offering the seeker wine. And while Prov. 31:4-5 cautions kings not to drink wine (particularly when giving judgments), 31:6-7 encourages the giving of wine and strong drink to those who are suffering physically and emotionally. Second, keep in mind that Proverbs are general maxims or sayings. There are sometimes exceptions to the rule, but the point of the Proverb is to teach a general point of Wisdom. So by this understanding Prov. 20:1 and 23:31 should not be stretched into a universally binding command to not partake of (or look at) wine or strong drink (especially since Scripture does not contradict Scripture). I’m not sure that I dealt with your questions about Proverbs thoroughly enough, but I am sure if you look at some good critical commentaries they may deal with your questions. And again anyone else is free to jump in here on this point and help clarify it for us.

    Sorry for the long response, but hey, this is my blog!

  26. Bob,
    I was a young teenager in junior high when you were in Bible college. You were one of the workers in the youth department at the time. I remember a time when I was goofing around during a teen meeting. You pulled me aside and reproved me for my actions (which was the right thing to do). You expressed your concern for me and told me that you had a special burden to see me succeed in my Christian life. Whether you realize it or not, that had a profound effect on my life. I realized that someone did care about what I did with my life.
    Now, I am older and beginning life on my own. I have been deeply grieved as I came across your articles and seen how much you have strayed from what you stood for so strongly a few short years ago. As you rebuked me when I was younger (and rightfully so), I must rebuke for how you have strayed from God. I do think there are some(very, very few) things that are proclaimed as standards and gospel in church that God leaves up to the individual. I do, however, believe that, if God found a subject so important as to speak about it in his word, we ought to set aside our human reasoning and place our belief in what God says. In reference to the subject of this post, God has very much to say in his word regarding the subject of wine(the intoxicating version of grape juice). One instance of many is Prov. 20:1, “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” I fear, you have relied too much on your human reasoning and have deceived yourself. You have become unwise, or foolish, in your reasoning.
    I don’t doubt your salvation. I knew you when you were zealous for God. You once showed evidence of Christian fruit in your life. But now you have slid to reasoning away open, blatant sin. As a Christian brother, I must rebuke you for your sin and exhort you to repent and get back to God. I John 1:9 But if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    Sincerely,
    Josh

  28. Bob said:
    “In thinking about the Proverbs passages, keep in mind a few things. First there are other passages in Proverbs which praise wine. 3:10 equates abundance of wine with God’s blessing.”

    Here’s what Prov. 3:10 says, “So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.” the language points toward fresh squeezed juice bursting forth from the presses, it doesn’t say “your cellars shall be packed with wine skins.” I don’t think that verse can be used to support alcohol consumption (others maybe, but not that one.)

  29. When considering the word wine, we know that the same word was used to represent two very different beverages. A more modern example of this would be the word cider. We’ve all probably had some cider in our lives, whether it be apple or cherry or some other fruit juice. And we would all agree that there were no intoxicating effects from it, except a stomachache it we drank too much of it of course! There is, however, another type of cider that we know about that is very much intoxicating. It contains alchohol just like the ‘spirits’ version of wine. This is a perfect modern day example of how the word wine was used interchangeably in the Bible yet with two distinct meanings.
    It is obvious when the Bible is referring to fermented wine, b/c it always shows a demeaning affect that that beverage has(ie. babbling, redness of the eye, rage, decietfulness). When the Bible speaks of wine in a positive sense, it is refering to the pure grape juice beverage(ie. marriage feast of Canna). You’ve got to be pretty dense and blinded by Satan to think that Christ would serve an intoxicating beverage to these people at the feast. Not with all the warnings against them in God’s (Christ) word.

  30. Reglerjoe,

    Thanks for coming back after my long response. I appreciate your interaction. I also understand that this is a touchy and sensitive topic. It is also a difficult one.

    As for Prov. 3:10, many believe “new wine” always refers to an intoxicating beverage. The article I linked to above in the comments (the one mentioned by Larry Lawton earlier) takes this position. But at the least we should point out that new wine may be alcoholic, but perhaps not in every instance. Hosea 4:11 is an instance where new wine is seen as alcoholic (KJV “take(s) away the heart” compare ESV “take(s) away the understanding”). The KJV uses “new wine” as an alcoholic wine in Joel 1:5 (but it is a different Hebrew word). In the NT in Acts 2:13 (& 15) the apostles and others are accused of being drunk because they were full of “new wine”. So these verses seem to indicate that it is possible intoxicating wine is in view in Prov. 3:10.

    Thanks again for the interaction, Joe.

    God bless.

  31. Anonymous (???),

    Drinking as defended in my earlier post here, is affirmed as a gift intended for us by God. Drinking goes too far when we abuse the gift God has given. Just as when we abuse other gifts, like food (gluttony), sex (fornication & adultery), health (misusing & harming our body), alcohol can be abused (selfish drunkenness, which may harm others). Over indulgence in alcohol which leads to drunkenness is clearly forbidden in Scripture. Remember, let me say it again, both those who advocate moderate drinking (myself) and those who advocate tee-totalism agree that drunkenness is a sin and forbidden in Scripture. Eph. 5:18, Prov. 20:1, Prov. 23:29-35 are as clear as can be on that issue. Anything less than drunkenness, however, is permitted as there is no verse that condemns the use of (not abuse of) wine. More so, there are many verses affirming and condoning the moderate use of wine. Again, see my earlier post, here.  But it would be wise to take care not to get as close to drunk as possible without sinning.  It is wiser to enjoy wine moderately and maintain great distance from the sinful excess of drunkenness.  Note: since people’s body size and constitution vary so much, there are different thresholds for how each person can handle alcohol.  While some can have three or four beers without getting close to drunk, others could only handle one every few hours.  There is no one-size-fits-all rule as to how many drinks one should or should not have.  But remember moderation and discernment is important. 

    Thanks for the question.  I hope my answer is clear enough.

  32. Josh,

    First, let me say thank you for coming over here and leaving your opinion. Not everyone does that. Also, thank you for your kind remarks about my testimony. I truly am thankful to see that you are firm in your faith and able to argue coherently for what you believe is right. I am not sure which Josh you are, but I am glad that my years in working with the junior high at Fairhaven saw some fruit.

    Let me also stress that I hope you continue serving God wholeheartedly. And I really do not hope to pull you away from Fairhaven or your own orbit of service to God. I may think you are very wrong on some of your positions and I am sure you think so of me, but we both are serving God and trying to live lives that please Him for His glory. So I am glad about that. I do wish you would see my points about fundamentalism, because I think there is much error which can be very detrimental to spiritual growth, but ultimately you must make your own decisions before God. Anyway, let me again say that it does make me glad to hear that you have persevered and are faithfully serving God!

    As to your concerns, let me first recommend that you read my earlier post on wine where I go through numerous verses which clearly support my position. Also in the comments there is much discussion about my views. I would not want you to think I have not thoroughly looked at all the verses on this topic and that I have not been challenged by opposing views before. You can read that earlier post by clicking here.

    Now on to your specific points. Prov. 20:1, I believe, is warning against becoming drunk. Wine can deceive you by getting you drunk. The verse does not say that you must avoid any wine or strong drink at all. It just warns you not to be deceived by it. Other verses like Deut. 14:22-26 (click here to read that passage–you need to be able to answer it) actually encourage you to drink both wine and strong drink and so Prov. 20:1 cannot be discouraging you from drinking those beverages at all. Rather it is warning you from being deceived into thinking that you can handle being drunk.

    As for “wine” referring to 2 kinds of beverages, the Deut. passage noted above mentions “strong drink” as permitted and encouraged. No one says “strong drink” does not refer to an alcoholic beverage. I can point you to passages that within the context make no doubt that every word for “wine” used in the Bible at one passage or another is referring to alcoholic drink. Now, can you point me to any passage at all which in the context makes clear that any of the words for “wine” used in the Bible in any passage at all only refers to non-alcoholic drink?

    What you are doing is assuming that if a passage praises “wine” it must be praising a non-alcoholic wine. Why? Is there any clue in the context to make you think that? In my earlier post I point out several verses that in the context seem to indicate an alcoholic wine is in view and yet the passages still praise the wine and the use of the wine as good. Your view is assuming that God forbids alcohol and then going back to Scripture and just re-interpreting every mentin of “wine” or “strong drink” that you think might compromise your view. I do not think that is an honest and forthright way to approach the Bible.

    See my most recent post above (click here) that shows how the secular movement of prohibition led to the current widespread assumption that alcohol drinking is forbidden in Scripture. It was not Bible believers who originated prohibition but secular people who felt that removing alcohol would cure society but in doing so they forgot that the Bible teaches that sin is the plague of each man’s heart and society as a whole.

    As for being dense and blinded by Satan, I don’t know how to respond. But just consider a few more points, and I’ll close. First, virtually all scholars agree that the wine used at the Lord’s Supper–that which Jesus himself drank–was alcoholic wine. “The fruit of the vine” is a Hebrew liturgical-type term referring to fermented wine. It is a historical fact that fermented wine was used at the Passover, and that is what Jesus was celebrating–taking the occasion as a time to begin the Lord’s Supper ordinance. See this quote below from this article, which is just part of the proof given there that the wine used in Communion was fermented:

    “Dunlop Moore summarizes the distinct Jewish meaning of the phrase as follows: ‘The expression the “fruit of the vine” is employed by our Saviour in the synoptical Gospels to denote the element contained in the cup of the Holy Supper. The fruit of the vine is literally the grape. But the Jews from time immemorial have used this phrase to designate the wine partaken of on sacred occasions, as at the Passover and on the evening of the Sabbath. The Mishna (De. Bened, cap. 6, pars i) expressly states, that, in pronouncing blessings, “the fruit of the vine” is the consecrated expression for yayin.. . . . The Christian Fathers, as well as the Jewish rabbis, have understood “the fruit of the vine” to mean wine in the proper sense. Our Lord, in instituting the Supper after the Passover, availed himself of the expression invariably employed by his countrymen in speaking of the wine of the Passover. On other occasions, when employing the language of common life, he calls wine by its ordinary name’ (Cited in The Christian And Alcoholic Beverages by Kenneth L. Gentry, p.55).”

    Further proof that wine was used in the Lord’s Supper comes from 1 Cor. 11:21 where it says some of the Corinthians were actually drunk at the Lord’s Supper–they could not have gotten drunk off of grape juice. What is amazing about that passage is that if non-alcoholic grape juice was supposed to be used for communion, what better time would there have been for Paul to forbid the use of alcoholic wine then right there when he is talking about their drunkenness. Instead he doesn’t mention that at all. He rebukes them for being drunk (something the Bible forbids) but not for having drunk alcoholic wine (something the Bible does not forbid).

    And to conclude let me quote again from that article linked to above. The quote will show how the wine at the feast in Cana was almost undoubtedly alcoholic wine (as that is the kind of wine that would have been drunk at a wedding feast).

    “The same oinos that makes one drunk (Eph. 5:18) was created by Jesus to be served at a wedding feast with full knowledge that it had the capacity to make one drunk (Jn. 2:1-11). After tasting the wine which the Lord had created, the master of the feast told the bridegroom that it was the custom to give the guests “the good wine” first “and when the guests have well drunk” (literally, “when they become drunk”) then to give them the inferior wine. The Greek word for “drunk” (Jn. 2:10), methuo is used without exception in the New Testament to refer to one being intoxicated (Mt. 24:49; Acts 2:15; 1 Cor. 11:21; 1 Thess. 5:7; Rev. 17:2,6). The Greek word for “drunkard” (methusos , cf. 1 Cor. 5:11; 1 Cor. 6:10) is a form of methuo. One other form of methuo is found in the New Testament, methuskomai (Lk. 12:45; Eph. 5:18; 1 Thess. 5:7), and this word also refers without exception to one being intoxicated. Thus, it is clear that “the good wine” (oinos) which Christ created had the capacity to intoxicate. The master of the feast relates to the bridegroom that the inferior wine was normally saved to last after the guests had consumed “the good wine” and were drunk (by then they would not notice the inferior quality of the wine they were drinking), but in this case “the good wine” (the same oinos that could make one drunk) which Jesus had created was saved and served to the guests last. There is no getting around the fact that “the good wine” which Christ created was “the good wine” which made guests drunk at wedding feasts (Jn. 2:10). Obviously, Christ is not condoning drunkenness, but rather giving His tacit approval for the lawful use of alcoholic beverages even in social contexts.”

    Let me say again, one last time, that if you never come to agree with me, I still hope for your good and your continued joy in serving God where you are.

    God Bless.

  33. Thanks so much for trying to answer my question. Have been battling the question in my own mind, and your piece has answered so many questions. I have recently taken a job at a bar as a bartender and have received alot of flak. Do you see any problem with such a job. Thanks

  34. Anonymous (???),

    That is a tough question. I don’t think there are any hard and fast, one-size-fits-all rules covering it.

    Some, though, would have a chapter and verse ready for you. Hab. 2:15 is used by many to forbid even the job of being a waiter/waitress that serves beer to their customers. It says, “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!” (KJV) I find it amazing that they use this verse. Did you notice the end of it? The verse condemns them not for giving the neighbor drink, but for intentionally making him drunk so that you can look on their nakedness! Vs. 16a also in the KJV makes this absolutely clear: “Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered…”.

    Back to your question… I think it is a judgment call you have to make for yourself. It might even depend on the establishment you work at. Some might encourage drunkenness or aid it more than others. If it is primarily a bar and grill, emphasis on the grill, or something like that, I wouldn’t see much wrong with it. And I really can’t judge what you should or should not do. A thought I have is that Jesus gave yet more wine to the people at the wedding feast in Cana. I am sure there may well have been one or two (or more) people there who didn’t need any more wine, but Jesus provided more anyway. Ultimately, if any guests over-indulged and got drunken, that was not the drink provider’s fault. Also, keep in mind that each person is the best judge of how much drink they can handle, as body weight and constitution varies so much.

    I am not sure I have an answer. But I would recommend getting advice from your pastors and elders. They would know your situation better. Prov. 11:14 could apply here, “Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety. (ESV)” Also, try not to get in the habit of always ignoring any “flak” you get from people. Take their rebukes or advice to heart. Seriously hear what they are saying and why. That is the mark of wisdom. It does not mean you have to agree, but understand where they are coming from, and do not foster a prideful, me-first, self-reliant attitude. Above all be humble. (This is not to say you are not, but I am just thinking through all the possible sides of the story here. I hope you don’t mind.)

    Thanks for stopping by and for asking some good, thought-provoking questions.

    God Bless!

  35. Bob,

    Compelling arguments. Lots of food for thought.

    One thing’s for sure, considering the ministerial crowd that I run with, if I was to affirm your position I would lose a lot of friends, church members, and would definitely anger my entire family (and my wife’s)!

    Such discussions really reveal how much I follow man out of fear versus following God out of conviction.

    Again, lots to think about.

  36. VERY interesting post. A subject I shall be thinking on and researching more. I tend to agree that drinking in and of itself is not wrong but not sure about encouraging it. You’ve given much food for thought. Now I will have to look up those words in context to see what they mean in Hebrew or Greek respectively. Thanks.

  37. I appreciate your prompt response. I don’t think their would be as much a problem if it was a bar and grill, but it is a bar plain and simple. I myself am not getting drunk, but customers can have a tendancey to go to far. As of right now I am not part of a church, so it is hard to talk to someone who can give advice. I do struggle with the idea sometimes, but the money and tips are good. I saw what you said about wine and all and it helped the conscience a little. Anyways thanks for your piece I can fill a lot more comfortable with the job situation. Anymore advice on the your view of things would be appreciated. Anonomyous

  38. Bob,

    Thanks for clarifying the moderationist position with both Josh and ‘Regler Joe’ (you know, the Orange Truck Regler Joe). I cannot stress to Josh particularly that he should read the biblical defense of moderation before making judgements against you personally; in a sense, such overhanded judgement is erroneous (If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.– Proverbs 18:13).

    If one would like to get information about differing types of beer as well as others’ opinions regarding the taste of beer, an excellent website is http://www.beeradvocate.com . This is probably the best website for beer, and they do have good articles about brewing, types, etc….

    So far, I haven’t seen any questions regarding a selection of beer, or questions from those who would like to start drinking beer and don’t know where to start. I learned the hard way about what to drink and what I enjoy, and wished that I had some advice before I bought my first six-pack of beer, notoriously it was Budweiser (I drank only one bottle and tossed the other six out– Budweiser is just disgusting). Figuring out what I would like was bewildering at first, but thankfully I found a beer that I liked (medium-amber Yuengling lager). Any questions out there??

  39. Larry,

    After reading your advice above, I went out and bought some Michelob Golden. I couldn’t remember what you had said (Michelob Honey). But it was a big improvement over the few dark lager Heineken’s I have in the fridge. I feel like I can develop a taste for the stuff now.

    Thanks!

    Oh, and I’ll have to check out that website.

  41. Bob,

    I believe you bought some Michelob Honey Lager. It’s the one with the honey bees on it. For a ‘beginner’ in tasting beer, it’s probably the best light/medium lager to start out with. The other honey lager out there is made by JW Dundee (Rochester, NY). I think Dundee’s Honey Lager is slightly better than Michelob Honey Lager, but it’s not as widely available. I don’t know if Yuengling is available where you live (in Minneapolis, MN), but if you can get it, GET IT! Since Minnesota is just to the west of Wisconsin, you might want to try Leinenkugel’s Lager (differing varieties) if it’s available. The Heineken you had is much more bitter than most lagers, and Heineken is an acquired taste. I drink Heineken, but it’s not one of my favorites.

    I’ll tell you a funny story….. I got in contact with Matt Fitzsimmons (“Fitzage”) a couple of months ago about trading some beer through the mail. I was excited about getting some Fat Tire lager (New Belgium Breweries), but Fat Tire isn’t available here in Florida. Yuengling isn’t available in Arizona, where Matt lives. So, I bought a cooler that could fit six bottles and some ‘freezer pillow packs’ to keep the beer cool while in transit. I mailed the six bottles of Yuengling to Matt in the cooler. About a week later, I got a letter in the mail from the United States Postal Service center in Denver, Colorado. It’s illegal to mail beer (or any alcoholic beverage) through US Mail. The freezer packs that I packed inside the cooler started to leak water, and the package got rather soggy. The US Postal Service confiscated the beer and stated that the beer was ‘destroyed’, but merrily sent the empty cooler onto Matt Fitzsimmons’ address. I only wonder if those US Postal employees actually drank the beer themselves– what a treat! Nevertheless, neither Matt nor I ever got to enjoy our treat of specially brewed lagers. Ugh!

  44. Steve,

    Me, original??? If you look at the links at the bottom of this post, you’ll already see the first six or so of Thirsty Theologian’s articles. You have provided the link to their 7th and last article on the topic. Their discussion helped spur me to write about my reflections on the topic again.

  45. Well aren’t I brilliant! (and observant) : |

    Hopefully noone else noticed my inability to read.

  47. Speaking of interacting, I haven’t forgotten to email you regarding my “journey.” Just been abit busy- coming soon…

    By the way, knowing you’re formerly KJV Only, I know you’ll appreciate the insanity of this. I was recently informed by someone that people cannot be saved unless it was by the KJV. You see, God can’t save people through the use of “corruptible seed” such as the NIV. Too bad for me. I’ve been duped for the last 24 years thinking God had begun and was continuing to do a work in my life.

  48. Steve,

    I mean to post more on KJV Onlyism soon. I am not unfamiliar with the claim that people can only be saved from the KJV. That highlights to what unbelievably schismatic extremes the movement can tend.

    Thanks for interacting, and I look forward to hearing from you in time. No hurry, I always end up putting things off myself.

    God bless.

  49. Pingback: Fundamentally Reformed » “Wine to Gladden the Heart of Man”: Thoughts on God’s Good Gift of Wine

  50. I am more of a craft brewed beer drinker with my favorite styles being English Brown Ales, Marzen/Oktoberfest, and German Pilsener. My knowledge of wine is very limited but my wife and I have taken a liking to German Riesling wines. Fruity, semi dry, not icky sweet, really quite delicious.

  51. Anyone defending the use of alcohol by Christians, apparently have never had first hand experience with alcoholism.

    Why play with fire?

  52. Pingback: Charles Spurgeon and Wine « Fundamentally Reformed

  53. Hans said, “Anyone defending the use of alcohol by Christians, apparently have never had first hand experience with alcoholism.”

    Likewise:

    Anyone defending the use of automobiles by Christians, apparently has never had first hand experience with inattentive driving.

    Anyone defending the use of the internet by Christians, apparently has never had first hand experience with internet pornography.

    Anyone defending the use of food by Christians, apparently has never had first hand experience with obesity.

    We could forbid any activity based solely on the possible abuse of that activity. In fact, this is exactly what the Pharisees did back during Jesus’ days. They created a “fence” around the law of Moses that was intended to prevent even the accidental breakage of any of the Law, thus going beyond the commands of scripture and requiring men to keep their extra-biblical commands and traditions above and beyond what God actually requires.

    The fact that some many in the Evangelical and Fundamentalist camps are so willing to place their own “fence” around God’s Word should at least be a cause for reflection, since the Pharisees received so much rebuke from Christ for this very act.

  54. Pingback: B&B Friday: Bloggers and others discuss alcohol and the Christian | TimothyArcher.com/Kitchen
  55. Pingback: Bloggers and others discuss alcohol and the Christian |
  56. Pingback: "Wine to Gladden the Heart of Man": Thoughts on God’s Good Gift of Wine :: Fundamentally Reformed

  57. FYI Several of the links posted are no longer available. They looked interesting and it was disappointing to see them gone. One of the questions that would be interesting to document was when do we have the first instance of the modern interpretation of wine and new wine being potentially non alcoholic. I think you will find them fairly recent (less than 400-500 years old ). That itself should say something about this discussion. The fact that Luther had a good stout by his side when he translated scripture to what would become Modern German, and Calvin has a bottle of wine whilst he made a french translation of scriptures. As some from an altogether different religious tradition who is focusing on the passover Seder, there has never been much argument in the OT or Hebrew religion about passover wine being alcoholic. It was diluted mainly because you have to drink at least 4 cups and even 4 cups is a lot to consume. My question is why does Christianity tend to breed some form of Victorianism, I was tempted to say puritanical but even the puritans enjoyed the fruit of the vine and a good beer.

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