The Seven Dwarfs –An IFBx Sermon!

15 thoughts on “The Seven Dwarfs –An IFBx Sermon!”

1. Wow. That’s bad. Really bad.

   (I think I preached a few sermons like that in my IFBx glory days!)

2. Bob is welcome to delete (even completely) my comment, but, regardless, I feel I must.

   I am sure this sermon was preached in our chapel, and I think I can even guess who the guest was (TS?). I will also readily admit that most of the sermons at Fairhaven are topical. But I believe that most also try to give a treatment of a biblical topic or theme. It is not surprising to me to see this nonbiblicaly themed message as one preached in our chapel, but I would say that it also is not the steady diet of sermons. Topical, yes; non-biblical themes, not normal.

   We also hear sermons from the other end of the spectrum. Here are the notes to one I preached recently. If you want to hear how the notes came out, visit this link.

3. Pastor Voegtlin,

   I agree with your comment. Unlike some other colleges, most of the sermons in chapel did not major on some story with a Bible verse thrown in. I was pleasantly reminded as I was flipping though some of my old College sermon notebooks, that we did get a lot of good preaching.

   Topical preaching was by far the norm, as you mentioned. And it seemed that it was fairly common to hear some interpretations given which did not seem to come from the text. This bothered me even then. Also, there was the universal IFB emphasis on preaching style–he who spits and snorts the loudest is the best preacher. I fear your preaching is not well received because of this idea.

   For my readers, let it be known that Pastor Jeff Voegtlin’s sermons are great stuff, usually. I loved them back then, and I love them now. I wish they were more representative of fundamentalist preaching than they are.

   Generally, Fairhaven preaching was more sober and serious than other IFB or especially other IFBx preaching. However, there were plenty of misapplications and general blanket statements made where the authority of the preacher was the only thing that pushed them through. To even question any preaching, most of the time, would be frowned upon.

   I am rambling on and on, here. But the point of my posting this sermon, was that such sermons happen and in some circles are quite common in IFBxdom. So, for the record, this was an exceptionally bad sermon for Fairhaven. But pretty typical for IFBxdom. (This is one reason Fairhaven gets an asterisk when it comes to being labelled IFBx, at least in my opinion.)

4. Just learned you had a blog, and thought I would check it out. How dissapointed I was to see the material that you are putting out. To see the way you manipulate scripture for your sin is a utter dissapointment. Thought I would mention that I remember the sermon you speak of about the seven dwarfs, mabee you would have appreciated the title better if it mentioned one of the different brands of alcohol you are using!( 7 bottles of vodka, 7 cans of beer, etc) I wonder if mabee you are trying to start the next cult or if you are really that much off your rocker. (Don’t mean to be offensive!) I saw as well that you mentioned a brother in law(N.G.) who has followed your line of thinking. Sad to see the state of affairs that he is in. If my information serves me right, (and I know it does), he is living in corpus with no place to call home and a refrigerator full of beer. Last time someone went to see him, saw that he had taken your line of thinking with the boose because there was evidence of it all over the house. I am not much into blogs, but could not refrain from mentioning how dissapointed I am in your line of thinking, but then again sin has a tendency to do that. I’m sure this will not stay up on the sight, and I’m sure you will have a response about how my mind is warped with my exposure to fundamentalism. But that beats exposure to alcohol any day!

5. I don’t have any idea who you are, but I know the preacher who preached “The Seven Dwarfs” and have utmost respect for him. I know his life and his love for the Lord Jesus and for people. I have also met many fine people at Fairhaven Baptist College and heard many good solid Bible messages there. As far as Calvinism is concerned, how do you know you are one of the elect? If you were, wouldn’t you be trying to spread the Gospel and sharing Jesus with a lost and dying world instead of bashing good preachers and Independent Baptist churches? Oh yes, by embracing Calvinism you don’t see a need to tell others about the great sacrificial love of Christ,right? Also which one of your precious little girls may not be one of the elect? Which one would you like to see spend eternity in Hell? Give me “Whosoever Will” anyday over your brand of theology. I pray that your wife wakes up and sees the truth before your little girls grow up in your reformed fundamentalism. I guess your parents, home church, Fairhaven, all the pastors who put so much time and effort in you can just mark you up as an investment gone bad. Also those sleepless nights may just be worry over whether you are really one of the elect. This space and time you spend on it could be used for so much good, rather than trying to hurt good Godly people.

6. Nate Starr,

   Sorry about not answering your comment earlier. I planned on it but it got lost in the shuffle. Anyway, here goes….

   First off, rather than claiming I am manipulating Scripture to allow for my sin, perhaps you could actually offer some proof. Show me where I am manipulating Scripture as I have already stated and do yet again emphasize that I have no desire to manipulate Scripture–rather I sincerely believe I am following it.

   About the sermon, again let me emphasize I have nothing against that pastor. I just think the message illustrates wrong exegesis and preaching which is very common in the IFBx movement. I have heard good messages from him as well. In fact I heard many good messages in college. But a good bunch of even those good messages did not model the best way to handle God’s Word. They were sincere and direct, but I often left without having been truly taught the Word of God. And that is a big problem with IFBx preaching in my opinion.

   7 cans of beer on the wall? Really? My point is I don’t want to hear a message about dwarves, beer, spaceships, or anything…I want to hear the Bible. He went to Disney for the outline and picked out some verses to use along the way. That is what I am objecting to.

   Cult?? In reality, many sectors of IFBism/IFBxism is much closer to being cultish than am I. I have returned to historic Reformed theology–the theology of many IFB heroes like Jonathan Edwards and Charles Spurgeon. It is IFB/IFBx-ers that have departed from historic Reformed orthodoxy for their own version of separation, highly emphasized pastoral authority, and the like. But I do not mean to be offensive either. I do not want to claim that your church is outright cultish in any way. Let me just remind you that I and my church also strongly hold to the historic fundamentals of the faith.

   Your information is suspect. First, N.G. (Nathan Grant) is my cousin-in-law. Second, you did not mention he had just moved to Corpus Christi. He has since found an apartment, and had only been staying with his brother as he was attempting to get a home loan, rather than dealing with an apartment. He just signed a two year contract for his self started business–does not sound like an extremely sad state of affairs to me. Before attacking him for his beer-drinking–which is not actually excessive from my sources, perhaps you could show how I (and he) have misinterpreted the many verses I listed in my wine post which support the drinking of alcohol? Don’t assume what you have not proven–namely that alcohol drinking is forbidden in Scripture. Also, let it be known that Nathan was one who influenced me to drink not the other way around. Although I had already come to my position on alcohol before I talked to Nathan. He, for his part, looked up every passage on wine and alcohol in the Bible and became fully convinced before he started drinking.

   Nate, please stick to the issues. Interact with my stated concerns about fundamentalism. Defend your positions, by all means. You are welcome to think what you want of me, but expressing your thoughts without dealing with the issues shows you really don’t care whether I am believing the truth or not.

   God Bless.

   Bob Hayton
   Rom. 15:5-7

7. Miss Pace,

   I am glad you have respect for this man. I do as well. I think he sincerely loves God, and he has raised some fine children who also love God. He loves the people of his church and gives his all to pastor them in a way he thinks is Biblical. I commend him for that.

   But am I wrong in pointing out any flaw at all with him? Cannot we point out areas of disagreement without outright condemning someone? I have tried to make it abundantly clear that while I have real and genuine concerns with fundamentalism, and extreme fundamentalism in particular, I do not view them as enemies. I am not out to get them. I want to help them and expose their errors. Yet I also want to welcome them Biblically, and affirm the greatness of the Gospel which they and I profess. I have stated that for my part, I would still seek to enjoy fellowship and unity with Fairhaven’s brand of fundamentalism. But I understand that they will not want to have such unity with me, and that makes me sad. I think it is an offense, ultimately, to Jesus Christ–and that is why I have determined to speak out about it.

   Again, I have stated earlier in these comments that I heard many good Bible messages at Fairhaven. But often passages were not clearly taught or exposited, and we received a good dose of the preacher’s personal opinions. I believe we all would have benefited more from Scriptural exposition and passion in preaching, rather than merely passion alone.

   As far as Calvinism, you are misunderstanding us. Calvinists birthed some of the greatest evangelistic revivals and mission projects in history. Whitfield and Edwards were instrumental in the 1st Great Awakening and both were staunch Calvinists. William Carey and Andrew Fuller were involved in founding the modern missions’ movement and they again were solidly Calvinistic–as was Adoniram Judson, the first American foreign missionary. Charles Spurgeon was an unashamed 5 point Calvinist who rightly understood that Calvinism does not contradict the need for personal faith in Christ. He is quoted as saying something like “Calvinism is the Gospel”.

   Calvinists affirm that Christ died to offer everyone a potential salvation. “Whosoever will may come!” But Christ did more than that. He actually was a substitute for a specific group of people. They were his sheep for which he died (John 10:11), his bride which he loved more than “every other woman” (Eph. 5:25-27), his church which he purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:28). He did not purchase the non church too. Christ is in one sense the saviour of all, but in another sense the “especially” savior of his elect (1 Tim. 4:10).

   Calvinists also affirm that it is not our part to worry whether we are elect or not. We are to believe, and such will be evidence of God’s working in our lives (which evidences our election). “No one can come” unless God grants it by drawing him (John 6:65 and 6:44). We simply preach that all must repent or perish, and when some repent, we view those as ones which must have been granted repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26) as the elect of God.

   Calvinism simply affirms the clear teaching of Scripture about what goes on “behind the scenes” so to speak with respect to salvation. God opens hearts, grants repentance, gives faith, and changes hearts…otherwise no fleshly lost person would ever be able to please God, because they cannot and will not believe (see Rom. 8, Rom. 3:12, and 2 Cor. 4:3-6).

   I encourage you to read John Piper’s booklet on Calvinism available online for free, and accessibly by looking at the sidebar of this blog, under the “miscellaneous extras” section.

   As for sleepless nights, I have explained elsewhere on my blog that I work third shift each and every week. I have extra time in between calls, and often do my blogging then.

   Phyllis, I am not trying to “hurt good Godly people”. I am trying to speak the truth in love and help them. I understand that you might not understand this, but please give me the benefit of the doubt. Don’t twist my words, let them speak for me.

   I am happy that you seem to be a believer in Christ. I once stood in your shoes, believe me. I took such information and conversation from my brother as attacks against the Bible. Having been in your place, I that much more understand your frustration. I also understand that you are sincere and want to obey God. I am happy about that, but wish you would prayerfully consider some of the things I say (although my being the one to say them is not the point at all…).

   God bless, and may you seek to please Him and live to glorify Him, whether or not we ever come to agree more closely in some of the minor issues, which still are important.

   Bob Hayton

   Rom. 15:5-7

8. Mrs Pace I would encourage you to read piper’s book on Calvanism its better than a sleeping pill any day!
   It is interesting how such a person (bob)has come to so many different beliefs. Wonder if he has been recently enlightened or if now he has gathered renewed strength behind the key board. Not being familiar with the blog world I have come to some certain conclusions. One the strenth that one can gather behind a key board. Never was this strength or passion ever showed while he was in college. As for the message 7 dwarfs which has been the subject of debate, there is much left out about the message that makes you reason that mabee this person(bob)was actually not there are deep in thought about something else. I do not want to bring up N.G., but feel I must. I know that many are praying for him, and that he has hurt many. But for bob to go to him with direction on the alcohol debate is quite unbelievable! I am sorry but I would have to question his motives of finding bible truths, I think he may be desiring something else (justified sin). He no doubt has something against a group of people that have undoubtedly put pressure on him to make right was he has wronged (school bill). Mrs Pace I applaud you on defending your pastor over absurdity, but knowing you, it does not suprise me. The difference between your pastor and bob are night and day, and after reading bobs blogs its easy to see why.
   Bob, why I have wasted my time on your blog I will never know. I guarantee you it will never happen again. As with using the names Spurgeon, Whitfield, Carrey and others, I really feel they would not appreciate you putting them in your camp. Could you only imagine it right now. Jonathan Edward preaching “Sinners in the Hand of An Angry God” then downing a couple beers at the local bar. I don’t think so! You state you want interaction, but I can only wonder why this interaction was not ever brought up while you were in college. I wonder if I may be right about the gathered strength that comes behind a key board. You say you want to hear the Bible preached. Are you really sure about that?

9. Bob,
   I would like to ask a question. You speak of this Pastor and the sermon that he preached, yet before you typed it out did you call or e-mail him to talk to him about it. If not then we might as well throw out what the Bible says about slander and gossip. What is new? People do that all the time today anyways. Especially when you can hide behind a computer. I know you will say that no one knows who you were talking about, but I say obviously someone does.

10. Dan,

    Let me ask you a question, before answering yours. Have you ever talked about a message you heard? Have you ever talked to some guys in the dorm about a message you heard in chapel or about a pastor/assistant pastor/guest pastor and said something like this: “Boy, that guy was boring!” Or, “I disagreed with his conclusion but I can see where he is coming from.” Or, “Man, that guy is crazy!”…

    I remember a certain pastor who preached three times in a row about how we all needed to have 12 kids. I know I overheard quite a bit of smirking and disagreement among college students about his incessant talking about this same topic. I know a message was preached by another guest pastor who preached on betrothal/courtship as the only Biblically allowed dating method. Again I heard many disagreeing with that message afterwards.

    Now in each of these cases above, should the people have contacted the pastor first? Is it wrong for them to have discussed the messages which were preached publicly? I do not think so. Now if they were to go on to gossip and say things about the preacher no one knew or which were false about him, that would be really wrong. Like if someone insinuated that the pastor who preached against dating had had several kids in his church go to the devil, that would be nigh unto gossip, as I see it.

    Which brings me back to the pastor and sermon in question. I am not slandering or gossiping, and no I did not talk to him first. He publicly preached the message. I disagree with his method of depending on Disney so much. I understand it was for dramatic effect and the like, I even gave that caveat in my post, but I still disagree with the choice to preach this message. I was also careful to not mention his name. But my mentioning that such a message was preached is not news to people who heard it. He is the one who preached the message, not me. I am not offering any info which was not publically known. I only mention what he said and point out a difference.

    Every time someone preaches agains MacArthur’s position on the Blood, have they personally contacted him first? Or are they simply disagreeing with his stated position? Slander and gossip is when you bring up private things about people in an attempt to make them look bad. Often the things said are half-truths (technically true, but the whole context is not mentioned) or lies. I do not believe this post fits the definition of slander or gossip.

    I hope that answers your question, Dan.

11. Nate,

    If you want to know how I came to so many different beliefs, read my letter. I detail how I came to beliefs that I DID NOT POSSESS IN COLLEGE. In college I was known as a thinker, and one who loved to debate. I also got pretty good grades… Anyway, while I did not hold the beliefs I do now, I did begin to encounter some questions and think through the issues which I would eventually come to embrace, namely a rejection of KJV-Onlyism and an acceptance of Calvinism.

    The only point I made about the 7 dwarfs sermon was that the points were taken from Disney and verses added on. I did not state the points, as such, were wrong. I was there, I took the sermon notes which I reproduced on this post.

    Regarding N.G., you REFUSE to listen to me. I said I did NOT talk to Nathan about the alcohol issue first. He and I both came to our conclusions separately. He actually influenced me to take the next step and actually drink alcohol. What motivated me to do that was the fact (as I demonstrate in this post, which by the way I have not yet heard your rebuttal to…) that alcohol/wine is mentioned as a good gift of God. If I refused to partake of it because I felt I could not handle it or it was not best to do so, I realized this would be to say God did not know what He was doing and to snub my nose at God’s gifts. To uphold the Bible’s teaching on wine, I felt I must use it as the blessing God says it is.

    N.G. was challenged about alcohol by his brother who also drinks to check out the Scripture for himself. So he did, and he was overwhelmed by the evidence. He has since (after his study) started drinking. You can judge his motives all you want, but I have a copy of his hand-written study of every verse on the subject. Why do that if he really could have just taken his brother’s word for it and drunk, if he was all about justifying sin… Also, concerning Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield and etc. drinking beer… if you check out the history of that period, you would be surprised. I just searched for Edward’s writings on wine and liquor and found him condemning drunkenness but affirming that wine is a good gift of God. At his own dad’s ordination there was quite a bit of alcoholic drinks on hand. Beer came over on the Mayflower and in the ships bearing the Puritans over to America in the 1630s. It was central to American early colonial life.

    Now both you and Dan mention my hiding behind a keyboard. How am I hiding? I came to my current beliefs well after I was in college. I am more against certain emphases that belong to independent fundamental Baptists as a whole, than I am to Fairhaven or another church in particular. My blog is about those differences and my call for greater Christian unity to be seen from the IFBs/IFBxs. I have tried to make absolutely clear that I am not against fundamentalists by clarifying exactly what my problem with fundamentalism is (check this post for a good one-stop place for seeing me explain this).

    I am not out slandering anybody, I am only disagreeing with their stated beliefs. I see no problem talking about those differences online or in person with anyone. The doctrinal positions and differences I have with fundamentalism are worth discussing and talking about. Trying to discredit me by insinuating things from my past, as some have done, does nothing to address the concerns I have brought up, and is actually a much more cowardly form of dealing with the issues than my blogging is. Let alone that such insinuations are based on half-truths and outright lies. But once again, my contentions and differences with fundamentalism are out in the open available for anyone to debate with me over them. I have really only interacted with one or two commenters on this site who have dealt with the issues–the doctrinal points and practical issues I deal with. By the way, I am still waiting for you to show me how my article on wine being a good gift from God is a twisting of Scripture.

    It seems, Nate, that you just want to gloat over how far I have gone away from Fairhaven’s beliefs. Or you want to try to just make me look bad, I am not sure which. You certainly are not concerned for me (or even for my readers) enough to bother with showing me from Scripture how I am clearly wrong.

    I hope you do not just blindly follow a system. I hope that you aren’t just following men. I hope the Bible is TRULY your SOLE authority for faith and practice.

    I pray God will direct you into an ever increasing love for and knowledge of His Word.

    God Bless.

    Bob Hayton

12. Bob,

    Thank you for your gracious comments in reply to those who have interjected into this thread some scurrilous comments. Great is the grace of God that gives us the truth and leads us (i.e.– the elect) in truth, and how we should be patient in responding to others by speaking the truth in love. You are to be commended, my brother!

    I graduated from another ‘fundamentalist’ college (Clearwater Christian), and heard a few zingers myself. I remember a pastor who preached on Ephesians 4:24 where this pastor said that ‘put on’ meant to ‘fake it’, and was so eagerly received by many students as his message was very entertaining. Sadly to say, it was the furthest notion from the intent and meaning of that passage in Scripture.

    Oh, I pray that IFBx churches would ‘return’ to biblical preaching, and return to the historic Christian faith!

13. Sorry I did not respond much sooner, I am not accustomed to coming to this blog! (Nate Starr)
    If your comments about (N. G.) typlify your other comments made on this blog, then everything you say is in question! Two year contract for self business, not excessive on the alcohol consumption, are very much untrue! You have mis-represented the facts about this preachers message. You have twisted what was going on at the time and what was being said.
    You say stick to the facts; what do you base your facts upon? Mabee what you base your facts upon, and what I base my facts upon are different. Mabee thats your problem. Question, how do you reason with a person who wanders from the truth? How do you truly answer such a person? Mabee you cannot!
    God Bless
    Proverbs 26:4,5

14. Nate,

    This is also a belated response. I just wanted to clarify that I got my facts concerning N.G. from him. He said he had a two year contract for a self business he was planning on starting with his brother (I think). Maybe that fell through, I don’t know. I do now N.G. has since moved to SD for some personal reasons. As for his alcohol consumption, I am sure he drinks much more than I do. Maybe close to excessive, but I have not heard him say he has gotten drunk. From what I heard, someone over in your neck of the woods greatly exaggerated some things about N.G. when they told some other people. I am not there and have only heard this info secondhand, I do admit. But I do recommend you look at my latest post on wine which clarifies the role N.G. had in my coming to my position, and he to his, by the way.

    As for how to deal with someone who wanders from the truth, one thing is for sure, just ridiculing him or telling him he is wrong will not help. What would help is patiently and lovingly showing him from Scripture why he is wrong and not in the truth. By the way, I am still waiting for you to prove that my Scriptural points in my article about wine are wrong, and thus to show me from Scripture that I have wandered from the truth in this area.

    One last thing, I want you to know that even if we never see eye to eye on this and other issues, I am still glad you are in the ministry and faithfully serving God. I am glad that the pastor who preached the message mentioned above is faithfully serving God and loving his people. I want the best for you all, and to that end I disagree with some things (and you disagree with me) and hope to help correct some problems that I see. But ultimately, at the end of the day, loving Christ and serving Him faithfully in accordance with your conscience is more important than what position you or I have on much more minor issues.

    God Bless (and I really mean that)

15. Addendum to the discussion here: I have not kept up with N.G. very much since this discussion. Occasionally here and there we’d chat and meet up, but I would not approve or help him in his way where I thought he was going wrongly. For about a year now, he’s broken off all contact with me over something I contacted him about regarding my disapproval of an action of his. So just in case anyone is reading into this more than there is, I am not N.G.’s keeper and don’t know all that he’s done. I don’t vouch for his current actions, but I do wish him the best and that the Lord would work on his heart….

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